QC Discussion - General Dis-satisfaction

With all the problems we all have had with our BigHorns we should be on the payroll. I am simply weary of fixing all the shortcomings in these units. All management has to say is "we will get on it" or " I will be on it Monday morning" and all is forgiven. Jeez guys get with it. There is no QC at Heartland, don't you get it yet? What will it take for you to catch on? We are QC for these guys. How much time do we spend fixing all this shoddy stuff? I have a life besides doing volunteer work for Heartland. Would I have another? Not in this lifetime!

Joe,

I moved your post above from the Bighorn Ask The Factory forum. I moved it as I did not care for the spirit or tone of the post. No problem with the intent - just the delivery.

Heartland is not yet a perfect company that puts out perfect product. In that, I think we all agree. I ask that you phone Heartland to speak to them in person about the issues you are having with your trailer.

That said Joe, Heartland is hearing you and they are hearing many others on this forum as well as many owners that are not online. It is my hope and the hope of many that they continue to get more right than they get wrong and continue to close that gap.

Jim
Admin

I think Joe has legitimate questions that need to be answered by the "Factory Representatives" in a public forum like this. Almost all of the trailers have the same problems. Why can't they fix these problems in the plant. The quality that we as owners feel that we have paid for is almost none existence. It appears that anything that can be hidden behind a panel or under a cabinet does not count as needing to be a quality issue. Its like if you can't see it,,, its OK to ship.

I agree with Jimtoo, I too have not got what I paid for, and have felt like a guinee pig.
I have given Heartland too much of my professional/vacation/retirement time fixing their problems.
To many Heartland owners are turning their heads and saying oh well, etc.

Just a reply to all that want to complain about the quality of Heartland. I worked for a Ford Truck dealership for 16 years. And we worked on many different motorhomes. Anywhere from the $70,000 range to $300,000 plus range. Think about taking your house and putting it on wheels and taking it down the road for hundreds of miles. Now add a D/C system to the A/C system, your own septic system, your own water system, your own generating system, and all the conviences that we like to take with us camping. But don't blame the county/state for having pot holes, rough roads, off camber roads, or anything like that. I have worked on half million dollar rigs that need warranty work. No manfacturer is perfact. That is why we get warranty. I've had problems with my Cyclone, but nothing that I feel is out of the ordinary, or that "some other manufacturer" might not have as a problem. But then, they'll have their own set of problems. When you have that many systems coming together in one unit you should expect to have problems. Just relax and enjoy the fact that you have warranty that will help in fixing your problems. And be appreciative that we have a forum like this to help us, and to help each other. If you feel like a quinee pig, or feel that you are spending too much time on your coach, then sit at home and hope that your car never breaks down, or your water heater never goes bad, or your a/c never quits just because it was a hot day and the repair man couldn't get to you because he was fixing all the other units that never had a problem. OR.....go out and enjoy the camping lifestyle, meeting new people, making new friends, coming up with a better way to make a mouse trap, and being able to share that with others that have the same interests as you. As for me, I enjoy the fact that Heartland makes a great platform to start with, and that I'm able to learn/share the experiences and solutions that I've come across in my travels.

Thanks for listening to me ramble,

Bob

Bob ...

I appreciated your uplifting comments and agree that there are no products that will be free from problems needing to be addressed. With all that has been said, good and bad, this forum and the opinions and solutions from all that contribute is what made me and others decide on Heartland. Keep the information coming everyone! I feel fortunate to have this info available to me and look forward to taking delivery of my unit soon knowing that the help I may need, no matter how small, is out there!

For now, I am with Bob on this one. We have had 3 trailers before this one. They were all used, but had similar problems. I have not had any significant problems with the Bighorn, but little issues I think you would find with anything new, including homes and cars. Along with that, there are a number of little improvements I have done as a result of this forum (that I really appreciate, Jim).

I have a friend that bought another leading name unit when we did, same little issues for him. I am still very happy with our decision to go with the Bighorn.

This being the last day of my warranty, I can say that I am a little worried about future problems that might come up! I am glad that I am handy with tools and being able to fix most problems that may crop up with this unit. We have had more than our shair of problems-more than any other RV that we have owned. What bothers me the most is that Heartland hears us but still produces units with the same problems.
Ken

Hi to all Heartland owners,
I might as well pop in here. If you have been following the posts I think our unit would qualify for the unit with the most problems. We could be the poster child 2006 for the RV industry. We have had all sorts of problems. As we speak our unit is at the dealer. Its been there since June 14. Are we a bit upset? YES. But if we had to do it all over again we would. Our greatest excitement is to return to Indiana for the 2007 rally. I can't wait to see all the friends and fellow owners. I suspect that all attendees feel the same way. Nobody likes to admit that they made a mistake or they bought the wrong product or they got ripped off. I can understand the frustration but sniping is not the solution. All owners that I met were willing to help us. Some members are some of the most knowledgeable campers I have met. I say we post are problems and help each other out. I love our unit. As a matter of fact Karen is interested in the new Big Horn model 3670. We simply can't afford to change until we are over. Will be under for a while. But I can assure you that the next unit will be a Heartland product. Yours truly,
Some frustations but no regrets.

P.S. I also belong to Good Sam forum, RV.net forum and Fifth wheel forum. The grass is not always greener. We are very fortunate compare to some manufacturer. We post. We share. We help each other. Even the manufacturer bends an ear and lends a hand. This forum is by far the best. A big thank you to Jim, to Hearland and all the members for their help and concern. I feel that I belong to a family. And that my friend is priceless.

qc

I have to say that now I am at 93 problems that I have registered with the dealer. Most of these are QC problems and some are still outstanding still. We bought our Bighorn in April and we are awaiting parts to be shipped that arrive in better condition than the ones in the rig. This is stuff that was very apparent to anyone that walked through the unit. We bought it because we liked the layout and figured that it would not be a big problem getting it fixed. No problem with the dealer, but things that arrive there are damaged before shipping and in worse condition than what is in the unit. QC at Heartland has to be made top priority!!!

Problems, OH YEAH, I missed the rally because of problems. My coach has been in the shop several times because of problems but I would still order another Heartland product. The reason I would order another is because of the factory support. I am on all of the other sites metioned plus a couple of others and the one thing I see consistently being questioned is QC by the factories. The difference I see between the other rv companies and Heartland is that Heartland monitors this forum and the other comapnies do not monitor or seldom monitor a forum for their products. I do not think Heartland is deaf, some things just take time. Maybe Heartland should consider going to a 2 year warranty, QC would probably go up then and the other rv manufacturers would have something else to shoot for.

Actully Jim from what I have read of your posts you really are a cheerleader for Heartland RVs. Removing my posts or not is of no consequece to me. I have been 100% factual and 100% truthful and I am not a Heartland cheerleader. They have fallen down on the job and have "yessed" a lot of you guys to death.
Are you a moderator or a censor? This country is full of censors and that is part of the problem. No one wants to hear the criticism. Really Jim, it is no surprise to me.
I don't expect that this post will see the light of day but I can look myself is the mirror and I know I am 100 factual and truthful. For the money we spent we didn't get any bargain believe me. Take off the rose colored glasses and face reality.
Joe

Sticking my nose in here. I have posted that the interior and outside of out 3055 is unbeatable! With an thorough inspection I found one missing screw and a switch plate in the bedroom that was reversed. Picky on the switch and no problem. Since then I found a stripped screw in the microwave fascia. No big deal. Had a couple or wayward day/night shades and a fridge door that wasn't reversed. Not death threating issues! The interior and the outside is A++! Still the best looking fiver I have seen! A few of the things that were known problems WAY before we ordered ours were. A/C not blowing air as good as it should. This was a simple fix from a forum member, Timk. Satellite TV not working. This should be a simple install. A sagging water tank when full. Timk had a fix and it works. All were KNOWN problems and I thought mine would arrive with these fixed. So such luck! First two items were are squared away. The sagging tank is yet to be fixed. If the dealer wont do the "swelling belly bar" fix I will do it myself. While looking at the inside of the equipment bays there is a real horror sighting. With the exception of a black tank flush hose not connected I am sure things would work. I spent at least 10 hours re-doing some sloppy installs (some of the dealers) and shorting wires and such that were just stuffed inside. Probably removed 15-20 feet of extra hose and wiring. Put in new outlets for the vac and converter. Tomorrow I am running an exhaust hose from the central vac out into a more suitable area. Things are looking good inside the bays now! Would be proud to show it off. I kind of enjoy getting personal with our new baby. But I am sure that others wont go to the extremes that I did. I am also a member of different forums. Lots of HORROR stories from different brands are mentioned. All have their own problems. There would be a fight on your hands if you would try and take the Bighorn from my wife and I! Hope us and our problem tellings don't scare the factory guys away. Their participation is what make this forum worth reading!

Bob, you have been lucky along with others, by having a HeartLand RV unit with better quantity control and very little problems. Although, my tires (Mission) have not blowed out yet to cause serious damage or had an axle fall off like a few other unfortuate owners. There is a big differece between a road traveling problem (tires causing damage); and the constant little irrating problems (leaking water tanks, black & or gray water tanks what won't drain, loose electricial wires sparking trying to start a fire, TV cable systems that takes an electricial engineer to figure out, leaking showers, drawer tracks falling off, hidden structural defects, clothes rods breaking, skylights cracked, slidouts that leak and won't work properly, toilets that leak, air conditioners that won't cool the unit, refrigerators not pluged in, construction waste left all over, the list goes on & on & on) all do to lack of QC & Supervision.
Staff at the Heartland service center have admitted that Quality Control was lacking when my 3055 Bighorn was build. Trapp has been and is very sly and smart to wait to buy his Bighorn while a few of us suffered much Heartache. It seems Heatland has used the earily, unsupecting buyers to try their units. I beleive that Heartland has listened and is and has corrected many of the problems many of us have had. I for one had way more then my share. I am able, and have fixed many of my own problems (in the process have saved Heartland many thousands of $$$$$$$$). If they can't do it right the first time why should I trust them an second time!

Bob, at first I though you worked for Heartland, had to read you post several times. During our first winter stay for 3 months in Floridia last winter, we met another 5th wheeler that we became close friends with. Their new F350 with a 6.0 engine started acting up along their new 5th wheel troubles and QC problems. Our friends took their new Ford for service and end up being stranded for over 5 weeks because of a poor service department. We along with others became their transporation. Unluckly, they ended up with a Lemon truck & 5th wheel trailer.

For almost 50 years, I have repaired all of my vechicals, horse trailers, RVs, and built the two homes we have lived in. I hate the new warranty period, and anyone working on my vehicials but me. We have never been broken down or towed, except for a tire. The secret is knowing your rig, and doing preventive maintenance constantly, especially before trips.
We have Camped and Rv'd for over 40 years and have own several camping trailers, vans, and motors homes. Our last motorhome was a 1986 Blue Bird Wanderlodge ($370,000.00 new in '86) which we travel in for 12 years without the problems we had/have now. We presently own and are selling a 2003, 32' Sunnybrook 5th wheel with no probems (maybe I should kept it and sell the Bighorn).

Bob, I do not agree (after building & remodeling homes for 40 years) with your comparision of a house and a RV. The only things that do apply,
is a good quality mined builder makes all the difference, and that builder doesn't need a service department, or a warranty.

I could kept quite on the forum, because I can and will kept fixing our trailer, it is the others that need help and besides, I want Trapp to get a better trailer then I got.

Oh, by the way the couple we met in Florida with the two lemons can be found in the above post under the name - "JoeW4300"

Wild Wind,

No I don't work for Heartland. And, Yes, I've had my share of problems. I took in a full page of problems and left my 5er with the dealer for 6 weeks. Got most of them fixed. I'm like you, I would much rather fix it myself than let someone else do it. For 16 years I worked for a Ford truck dealership as a diesel mechanic then on to service manager. Before that I worked as a diesel mechanic for 8 years. So I have some experience in seeing problems that arise. I've seen failures that have nothing to do with QC, but it just happens. Many things you wouldn't expect to see at all. Alot of the parts that fail are made by machines and are completely checked and rechecked. But one out of 10,000 breaks. Who do you blame? For the most part RV's are like the Ford trucks I worked on, you take the emblem off the front and they are all the same. Cummins, cat, detroit engines. Allison, eaton trans. Rockwell rearends. Recor fuel/water seperators. I could go on with a long list. So is it a Ford, freightliner, volvo, international? RV's are alot the same. Dometic fridge, suburban heaters, same plastic tanks used in probably half the RV's out there.

I'm sure there is somebody out there that can build an RV that won't have any problems, but could you afford it? Although they would still put a warranty on it, because if your going to spend that kind of money you'll want a warranty just for the peace of mind. Nobody can guaranty with absolute that the grade 8 bolt used to hold something inplace will never break.

Wild Wind, you say you've repaired all your own rigs for almost 50 years. I'm assuming that it's been just normal maintainence? Because you sound like the kind of person that only buys quality things. But in 50 years, nothing has ever broken under warranty? All quality builders have warranty, no matter what they make. It's just the good ones that have low warranty rates.

I could go on for a long time, but it seems alot of what you see has to do with who's eyes you're looking thru. What you see as a major problem, I might not. Just a little annoyance. Besides, while I'm fixing that little annoyance, I might see something else that I'll want to change and make better for me. And I won't expect Heartland to change the way they have been doing it just to make it the way I like it. What you see as a problem, I might see as a challenge. As I am always trying to make a better mouse trap. And if I think I did, I'll share it with the people on this forum. And they can take it for what it is, just a different way of doing something that they might not have thought about.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, or make little of anyones problems. I appreciate the info I have gotten off of this forum, and the willingness of the people here to help each other. And it is nice that the factory has people here to listen to us and help when they can. As for me, I'll continue to work on my own Cyclone, even though it's still under warranty. Go RV'ing. Enjoy the upgrades I've made to my 5er. And get out there and make new friends.

Thanks to all for reading my post, sorry it's so long,

Bob

Joe,

For the record, I have not removed or censored your posts. I merely moved your post from the ATF forum to here. oving posts around is a function I perform daily when I feel a post should go somewhere else. It's no dig on the poster, it's just a housekeeping function admins/mods do.

Doubt/hope I would never have to delete anyone's posts but it could happen I guess. That's no threat - just saying I cannot control what someone will post.

As the owner/administrator of this forum, I am trying to run a forum that truly "serves" owners of Heartland products. To that end, I try to promote an atmosphere where people feel comfortable in sharing their issues, their concerns and their solutions with others. It's only when this is done in a mean spirited way that I feel I have to step in and ask for the delivery to be toned down.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you don't have a right to be ****ed at Heartland. I am saying telling them you are ****ed on my forum is not the right place. Tell them directly, by phone or by letter to their president.

Do come here to share with us what you like about your unit and what is wrong with it and what the solutions were in an effort to inform and help us with our own rigs.

Being totally realistic here, I do realize that the format and way this forum is run, is not for everyone. Only you can know if it's for you. There are many online forums to choose from - this is just one of them.

Thanks Joe,

Jim

Guys,
Just a few cents worth from one of the guys who started this company... For the record, Heartland will never try to "trick" people as some of you suggest. Not as long as I am here. The reason we have as descent a relationship as we do with the vast majority of our customers is because when things do go wrong with our coach, we will make it right, even if the dealer or service center can't. We don't turn our backs or run. We stand there; hear the frustrations that have to come out from a customer who has a problem; and then we get to work making the problem go away.
And honestly, you are dreaming if you really think that a RV maker will "never need a warranty or a service dept.." Why? Just use logic, really. Yes, as noted in this discussion, the RV industry as a whole tends to have a lot of "service" related issues that your automobiles and trucks do not have. Is it really that hard to understand the issues inherent in all RVs - considering that we are talking about a home on wheels with a full plumbing system, full electrical system, a water heater, power convertor, water pump, appliances, lighting, cabinetry, countertops, drawers and doors, furniture, glass, tv's, stereos, showers, toilets, beds, and on and on - just like my stick built house - but this one is ON WHEELS (not a giant air mattress or water bed) - traveling (bumping, jolting, learching, chauking, and bouncing) down the roads of our country? And you think it's as simple as saying a "good manufacturer doesn't need a warranty or a service department..."? That's just not a logical position.
I've hired customer service personnel from Jayco, Newmar, Damon, Monaco, Forest River and Keystone to work here in Heartland's customer service dept. I personally have worked at, or had as clients, seven other RV manufacturers for over 20 years in this business. Guess what they ALL have in common? A very real need for a service department and warranty.

I have learned that it doesn't matter what I say on this forum, or how I say it - the only thing I can know for sure is I will offend someone or come accross as "uncaring" or "trying to snowball us.." or "full of excuses.." or even "full of _ _ _ _".
I guess there is nothing I can do about that but continue to speak what I know to be true. We don't build a perfect coach, because we have yet to find any perfect human beings to do it. So what do we do? We continue to strive to do it right the first time, knowing that even that may still result in things shaking or vibrating loose on the road over time.
We have three QC inspectors on each product line. We have a second layer of inspections and repairs done at the dealership when the coach arrives there - and finally, we have you, our owners, who end up finding things that need repaired, adjusted, replaced or just plain fixed.
And we do it. And I'm glad to say that I have dozens of letters and emails from Heartland customers who tell us we are doing a heck of job for them - our customers. I wish we could make everyone happy, but I'm a realist and I know that is not going to be possible. So, thanks to all of you who speak up on this forum when you hear things about Heartland that you know are not true. We are, and will continue to be, here for you.
ST

Bravo Scott.
I agree with Jim this forum is to exchange ideas, tell about places we visited, communicate with friends and fellow owners. If we have a gripe with Heartland personally then there are other venues to voice our opinion or dissastisfaction. I for one do not want to see this forum become a Heartland -bashing place. Besides Jim will not tolerate it because it is not in the spirit of this forum. Furthermore I do not think that Heartland deserves the "griping". No I do not work for Heartland. Yes I have had my share of problems but my goal is to get them fixed by Heartland, our dealer and advice from fellow owners. This is by far the best RV forum. If it was to turn into "let's get Heartland" attitude then we all lose. And I would be the first to cancel my membership. Let's help each other.

P.S. I invite all to come to the 2007 rally in Indiana to see for yourselves what a wonderful group of people we belong to. Granted I am not so wonderful but Karen has enough "wonderful" for the both of us. Besides we own two cats that have a lot of "wonderful".

My 2 cent worth!


OK, I guess we can all agree that we have all had some type of troubles with our units. And yes, the frustration levels are pretty high for some. I personally am getting weary of all the finger pointing and bashing. My goodness, it seems as though some of you want to make a career of it. The forum itself is a fantastic avenue to get thoughts and ideas through to many people but if we are not careful it could turn into a large ****ing match. I for one have learned a great deal about people and their coaches here and cannot thank Jim enough for his tireless efforts keeping it going. For all of you that are more than 50 percent past liking your unit and going towards wishing you’d purchased something else, let’s look at some things.
Here is a 3 year old company competing in a large arena of RV manufacturers. Most people do not start a company with the attitude of going out of business, rather to build a company that will grow and prosper. Heartland has definitely started off on the right foot with “value for the money”. Everybody in this forum must think so. We all strive to get the most for our money. And we all liked what we saw, enough to purchase a Heartland product. We all thought we did our homework and got the best product for the money. I know I did, and still believe that I did. I would do it again because I know that Heartland will be there for all of us. Let’s not confuse poor dealership issues or poor component quality with Heartland. It’s too easy to point the finger sometimes at Heartland when in fact it might be a component manufacturer is at the root of the cause. Case in point would be the toilet seals from Dometic or the seal around the Fantastic Fans that have a petroleum release agent in them that causes the vent lid to stick shut.

Here are some Heartland facts:
1) Heartland was formed in the Fall of 2003
2) Heartland obtained a building in late 2003 to work on their designs
3) Production began in March 2004, building (1) coach (Landmark) per week.
4) Late fall 2004, Heartland implemented some exclusive designs to create a more affordable price point vehicle, the Bighorn.
5) Heartland took (1) each Landmark & Bighorn to the Louisville show Dec. 2004
6) From the Louisville show, Heartland went from 25 dealers to almost 100
7) Heartland, in one month hired 120 workers, of those they kept 30 and fired 90.
8) Heartland has grown from a 45,000 sq. ft. building to over 235,000 sq. ft. of production space.
9) Heartland has recently broken into the TOP TEN of all 5th wheel manufacturers passing many long time companies such as Coachman, Carriage, Double Tree and the likes.
10) Owners ages, (2) are 40, (1) is 44 and (2) are 54


So, there you go. Heartland has really been in production for about (28) months. Within those (28) months, they have gone from (1) product to (7) products and all the floor plans for each. Try and imagine building up your company and it’s products. Look at all the planning, personnel, inventory, scheduling, vendors… that goes into building a trailer. That doesn’t just happen overnight. Not to mention all the headaches attached to all the tasks listed. In my opinion, Heartland should be commended on their efforts for starting a company that has grown so well and so quickly. I believe that Heartland is going to be the company that all others try to copy for years to come. I bet if we had purchased an RV from some of the other big names today that have been around for many years when they started up we would have seen similar issues.
For all you nay-sayers out there, and you know who you are, When you have started your own company and gone to full production without any problems whatsoever, please speak up and tell us, and for all of you who never make a mistake, stand and be heard, otherwise settle down and try to be more understanding.

OOH, did I say that outloud!