Quality Control on new 2011 Big Horn

Monday morning I drove down to Elkhart to pick up my new 2011 BH 3670RL from RV Capital Wholesalers (aka Great Lakes RV). This is the same unit I went to look at last week as it came off the line, and had a significant cabinetry issue which was addressed after I pointed it out. Link to old thread

The plan was to perform the PDI at 10AM in the morning, be finished in the early afternoon, and spend the night parked on the dealer's parking lot "campground" which was just a place to park with an electric hookup. Only about 5 minutes into the PDI, I discovered another serious issue: the coach did not have the upgraded axles (8k instead of 7k) nor did it have the correct hubs (easy lube instead of never-lube as ordered). Also, all four shock absorbers were...MISSING! I immediately got on the phone with Heartland and, to their credit, they jumped all over this and sent a truck down to the dealer to pick the unit up.

While waiting for Heartland to arrive I began testing systems and found other defects that would be easier fixed at the factory, and created a punch list. A cabinet face needed changing out, and I needed a new microwave, as Heartland had damaged the existing one when making the cabinet modification the week prior. The shower leaked terribly where the glass meets the shower pan on both sides.

Heartland arrives around 12:30 to pick up the unit and I figure it's a good time to go to lunch. Afterwards, I begin making calls to my dealer, to Heartland, and anyone else I could bother to make sure they knew I needed the unit back the same day...as I had to stay in it that night. I finally got a commitment out of Heartland to have it ready for pickup by end of day.

I got the unit back around 6:30 that evening. Now I'm exhausted, and my PDI process is nowhere near complete and the dealer's technicians are all gone for the day. That's fine, I can do the PDI myself. It's starting to get pretty cold out so I focus on testing systems from inside the coach. Everything seems to be going OK. The shower leak was no more. Some minor issues, like the fantastic fan did not respond to t-stat input. Life is good, I thought. The pump seems to be spitting a mixture of water and air, which I know not the way it should work, so I write it on my punch list for the next morning. Finally, it's time for bed. The furnace quits. It would come on for about 10-15 seconds but the burner would not ignite and it would shut off. Did I mention it's only 35 degrees outside at this point? I tried everything I could think of, with no luck.

The next morning the dealer quickly resolves all the issues. The furnace had a loose connection on the circuit board. The fantastic fan t-stat was also bad, which he replaced. The microwave was changed out for a new one. The pump had a lose connection and there was about 1/2 gallon of water in the basement. This one freaked me out, so I unscrewed the access panels and opened everything up to dry out and continue testing that there are NO leaks.

Another long story ensued, not pertinent to this post related to my Superglide hitch and the universal capture plate not fitting. I'll omit these details for now.

Around 2PM and everything was fixed, time to go home. I get hitched up and the dealer sends me off. Driving about 1/2 mile down the road I get a red light. I hit the brakes and there are NO trailer brakes. I nearly plow right through the intersection, but managed to stop BARELY in time. Fortunately I was not going that fast.

Back to the dealer. He says, "Back already?" I told him about the brakes and he looks at me like I'm an idiot. Then asks if I have a brake controller. Then, says "your brake controller must be bad". Now I'm getting angry. I've pulled several trailers with this truck and brake controller before, and never had an issue. I explain to him that, after dragging the brakes manually for about 1/4 mile, it felt like I had ONE wheel out of four trying to stop. He gets down on the ground and feels the drums. All are cold, one is hot. He says "Seems like only one is working". Gee, where have I heard that before?

Three drums were way out of adjustment. Once that was fixed, I headed back out. Much better now!

So now to the point of this thread... why am I posting all this? Hopefully, Heartland is reading this. I am very disappointed with the lack of quality control on my unit as it left the factory. To keep this story as brief as possibly I have left out a lot of minor issues that Heartland also could have caught. To install the incorrect axles, incorrect hubs, NO shocks whatsoever, and the myriad other issues I experienced is, in my opinion, inexcusable. To their credit, Heartland really stepped up and addressed these problems quickly and correctly. The customer service was great.

Now as I understand it, Heartland pays the dealer to fix all these issues that come up during the PDI and after the sale, when they are fixed at the dealer. I'm sure this is not cheap. So many of the issues I had were 100% preventable with a little time and effort spent going over things before it ever leaves the factory. I fully understand stuff will break, come loose, etc AFTER the sale but I think that, as it leaves the factory, stuff should work, have the correct options installed, not leak, etc, etc.

Why doesn't Heartland hire a couple of guys testing these things out once thhey come out the factory door. Sort of like going through a mini-PDI? With a simple checklist, many issues could be caught on the spot. Paying a couple full time guys would have to be cheaper than paying dealers to fix a lot of this stuff. More importantly, and the REASON I'M POSTING ALL THIS... the perception of quality would be much higher if the customers never saw these issues in the first place. Certainly the end-result is the same either way... eventually everything gets fixed...but I have a much different impression of Heartland quality than I would if I had never SEEN the leaky shower, incorrect axles, missing shocks, etc, etc.

I realize it's never as simple as it seems, but from where I sit, there must be a better way. As the saying goes, you never have a second chance to make a good first impression. For now, I'll just be grateful that the stress of those two days is over, and I can finally begin enjoying my new coach. The kids are begging for a night of driveway camping, which we have scheduled for tonight!

Jeff & Laurie,

Happy to hear that evrything turned out good and now you can enjoy camping even though it will be in the driveway. I camped several nights in our driveway when we had a stick and bricks and enjoyed it. The QC problem has been stressed over and over at every rally with a Heartland rep there. QC as you well know should not be taken lightly and I whole heartledly agree with your feelings. These coaches coming down the line need QC at every station not just the last one going out the door. I would much rather wait another week for a new coach and have it right than have my coach sitting at the dealer waiting on parts and cosmetic issues that will take much longer due to the logistics. JMHO

I really like my Bighorn. I have not had a lot of problems. Main one was the broken spring. I am concerned with the electric landing gear and am going to replace them hopefully this year. However I have met 2 people this year while down in the RGV that are having frame problems. I am always looking at the trailer around the front and the pin box to see if there might be a seperation. This concerns me a lot seeing we are no longer under warranty. I met a couple that are having this problem with a new trailer and had it in to the factory 5 or 6 times to make the same repair. This is dishearting.

BC

Jeff,

Thank you for your story. I am sorry things turned out this way for you. I have no explanation for you, but trust that your story has been passed to relevant stake holders and an owner of Heartland RVs.

Jim

Jeff:
I think you have the same reaction any of us have when finding defects with our RV's. While I understand your situation in wanting to stay in the trailer the 1st night, do you think that putting time deadlines on the repair crew caused the work to be rushed, and maybe the normal QA inspections not to be done ( maybe the QA crew had already gone home for the night). The 1st set of axles might have had perfectly adjusted brakes, but in the rush maybe the 2nd set didn't get adjusted. Some of the fault in this should go to Heartland, who shouldn't release a product (no matter what the customer wants) until it is tested and safe enough for their loved ones to travel with.
BTW, it is part of my pre-departure checklist to test the trailer brakes alone to stop the entire rig before getting on the roads.

wdk450 said:

Jeff:
I think you have the same reaction any of us have when finding defects with our RV's. While I understand your situation in wanting to stay in the trailer the 1st night, do you think that putting time deadlines on the repair crew caused the work to be rushed, and maybe the normal QA inspections not to be done ( maybe the QA crew had already gone home for the night). The 1st set of axles might have had perfectly adjusted brakes, but in the rush maybe the 2nd set didn't get adjusted. Some of the fault in this should go to Heartland, who shouldn't release a product (no matter what the customer wants) until it is tested and safe enough for their loved ones to travel with.
BTW, it is part of my pre-departure checklist to test the trailer brakes alone to stop the entire rig before getting on the roads.

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Bill, I think there was a misnderstanding... I traveled to Elkhart to take delivery of the unit. The dealer had already had it for three days. It was not until I got there that I realized the axle issue. I should have noticed it last week when I was at the factory to see the unit for the first time, but because they were winterizing units there was water all over the ground and I didn't really want to crawl under there.

I expected to use the coach that night because that was the original plan, and I had no other place to sleep. I don't think that played a factor in the issue with any other QA processes that should have been complete prior to this point.

The dealer should have checked the brakes. I should have checked them too, other than the little rolling stop check I did in the parking lot before leaving. There wasn't much room to perform a meaningful test before going out onto the road.

Upon re-reading my original post, I hope this story did not come across as a Heartland-bashing rant. On the contrary, I'm pretty happy with the current state of things, and Heartland's customer service is just as good as advertised. The reason I posted this was in the hopes that by the time I take delivery of my NEXT Heartland RV in a few years, they have used feedback like mine to improve the process surrounding quality control. I don't want to go through all this a second time.

I hate to hear of the problems you have had. Some of the problems you had such as ( the leaking shower at the pan, trim issues and leaking connections) have been on going for at least the last 2 years in various units. I delt with them in my 09. I know HL has been awear of these things for a good while and to see them still going on in a new RV right off the line is worrysome to me. My unit was at the dealers almost every other week for the 1st 2 1/2 months. I will say HL stepped up and so did my dealer.
However, now that all the bugs are worked out I'm feeling better. I hope in a very short time you are enjoying your RV.

Our BH 3670 arrived yesterday at the dealer so we went down to drop off our solar system and check out the trailer. It wasn't hooked up but the initial pass through looked OK. Some bubbles in the wallpaper that he says usually go out if they heat up the bubble. I think it is poor workmanship but no big deal.

Our dealer will have the trailer we guess for about a week to do his PDI which includes checking out all systems, flooding all tanks and looking for leaks, checking the furnace and A/C etc. He even blows up the air bed to check for leaks. He does this because he bought a trailer once that had all sorts of problems and as a dealer he doesn't want to be bothered with people coming back with problems that he can catch early on.

Heartland did a poor job of quality controlon your trailer but your dealer should have picked up these problems before he turned the trailer over to you. It sounds like all he did was take it off the truck, get it inspected and turned if over to you............................

Our 06 gave us nightmares at first. One of the big problems is the dealer did **** poor fixes. I confess I did expect perfection after unloading the savings account on it. I am hoping ours comes in with minimal problems and Heartland being on it third dealer in this area we ended up with a good one. I am a college graduate compare to a kindergartner with RV's in relation to the first one we bought. Example: Our water tank popped out of its mounts the first time I filled it. This one wont leave the lot until the fresh tank is filled.

You are definitely not the only one who is concerned with quality control. Water leaks behind docking station, unable to fill fresh water tank more than 1/3 etc due to poor design, landing gear wired incorrectly and so on. So I know how you feel. I have other problems but nothing serious. This is my third 5th wheel and none of my others had these initial problems. Time will tell with all of us.

Rick Chodat
2009 Bighorn 3580

part of the op problem was his dealer im pretty sure of i had same dealer and pdi was a nightmare after driving 250 mile to take delivery and found it nowhere near ready shame on greatlakes

My concern is that with Heartland's expansion, their quality is going to go down. As already stated, their problem with leaking showers is well documented. My 2010 3055 shower leaked from day one. If with all the documentation they can't solve this simple problem what is going to happen as their production increases. BTW we LOVE our Bighorn.

Dick,

Your concern is definitely understood. And I wish I could explain how and why things slip through or fail prematurely - but it's not my role to know these things or do so. I can tell you this, that as we expand, our entire operation must and will expand with it. From engineering to production, to QA/QC to sales to customer service. In fact, when plants are designed, they are done so to an "output capacity". Reach that number and you are maxed out there. You may have read about our plans to produce travel trailers under the names of some of the former Fleetwood towable names we acquired. Without creating a debate about the virtue of doing this, I want you to know that production of these brands will be in new plants and will not unduly tax existing ones.

Jim

Jeff, your story reflects our of four months ago, although we bought the 2011 Landmark Grand Canyon, down to the wrong 8,000 Neverlube axles not being installed as promised and the brakes not being adjusted (and we left the lot with four inches of snow on the roads!) We couldn't do a thorough PDI because our changeover was done inside RV Capitol's service building since it was mid-December and they only had 20 amp service inside so we couldn't test the air conditioner/heat pump nor the microwave because do so would have blown their circuit breakers. Granted, I had the crew make a lot of changes due to the rig not being as promised/seen on the lot because of "manufacturer style changes" for the 2011 model. Our mistake for ordering a unit sight unseen, but there were none on the lots, no updated information on the Heartland website and no updated printed brochures beyond the 2009 models. And boy were there changes made. No in-line water filter, no this, no that (not getting into that). As fulltimers and not being fond of snow, we picked up our unit and immediately headed to Texas to register it and thus started our saga of things gone wrong. The latest was this week, when putting out the bedroom slide and having the bed catch on the junction box screwed into the floor (loosely) under the bed. The bed frame ripped away from the floor and now the slide won't open all the way out. We had to totally tear apart the bed and fix it ourselves because the slide wouldn't close to find a dealer to repair it for us. At least we know the bed is fixed properly since we did it ourselves and when we get to Albuquerque next week we'll get the slideout repaired *crossing fingers* as well as the air conditioner/heat pump which doesn't put out air through one whole line of vents running the length of the rig. And we're still waiting for a new aluminum wheel because of a crack in one that was causing a slow leak in one of the tires, so now we're traveling without a spare wheel/tire which is scary. There's a whole list of things I haven't even mentioned, most of which we fixed ourselves since we've been on the road ever since we picked up the unit. We've had two other fifth wheels, neither of which was a Heartland product and NEVER had problems like this before. However, we're going to have to deal with it and hope that one of days the problems will all be fixed before the warranty runs out. And yes, we'll be returning to Elkhart in the fall to get those EZ-lube axles replaced with Neverlube axles we paid for. By then we'll probably have over 8,000 miles on the trailer so the timing will be good.

We just picked up our BH 3670 after about a week at our dealer doing his PDI and have found minimal issues so far. DH is a fussy engineer and he is very happy. Since he didn't want a new trailer this is very good(our old one cooperated by having problems at the same time I was pushing for a new trailer). No leaks, some labeling problems on the fuses and circuit breakers. We have tested each circuit so we know which plug is on which circuit. I think he rewired 2 circuits so that we could have front AC and TV if we only had 30A service, originally wiring was for no AC or TV with 30A service. I guess it is the luck of the draw as to quality.

We also ordered never lube axles and got easy lube. I don't know if we read it wrong or they switched things around. We would have preferred never lube but easy lube is OK, just need to put it on the annual to do list. Did get the 3.75" brakes though. We think we might have a braking problem, noticed a pull when stopping on the way home buy only with hardish braking. The controller hasn't been set up for the BH so that may be it. On the to do list to check out.

RV_Vagabonds, I'm so sorry to hear of all the problems you are having with your new rig. I can definitely relate to the frustration...mine is in the shop as we speak because all the slide out awning arms are bent inwards. Something about not properly installed at the factory. Our furnace also quit working (again) due to some bad wiring.

While I appreciate Jim Beletti's response and Heartland's customer service in general, I don't know that it's enough at this point to make me a return customer when we replace our new Big Horn. Granted, that is several years down the road and I'm sure a lot will change. But what I see right now is the same mistakes being made over and over again, for which I don't think there's an excuse.

Some folks will be quick to defend quality issues with the thought that these are complex houses, that are mass produced ,and hauled down the road subject to all kinds of stress and vibration. That makes sense, but then why are some companies better than others? My last four coaches were Sunlines (now out of business). The attention to detail and quality of construction was amazing. The PDI was a mere formality. I'm sure they had issues here and there, but in ten years of ownership, I had no problems near the magnitude of what I experienced the first day I owned my Big Horn.

I love Heartland and really hope they address these issues. I'd love to be a customer for life. Improving quality may not sell more units immediately...in fact it might even slow you down. But it's an investment into the future of the company. Great floorplans, state of the art new features and technologies all mean nothing if people are under the impression that the unit, as a whole, is junk.

If I were Heartland I would send a survey out to all dealers and customers who bought a trailer in the last 6 months and ask about the quality of the RV they purchased. You would need to study the dealer results separate from the customer results. The dealer results could then be traced back to a quality control issue at the factory and the customer results could be traced back to the dealer.

Do some trend analysis, by brand, day of week, shift etc. and you might have something viable to identify and work with.

This thread seems to be wandering away from the OP's post. However it is still a healthy discussion.
Here is a thread that I posted last year. While it does not offer any excuses for what we percieve as lack of quailty it may in fact offer a reason or two.

I will say that when I posted it, the thread took a turn that was not what it was intended to take - mainly from a poster who is not around anymore. Because of that , I asked Jim to delete it but settled on just closing. It was my intention to have a healthy and a constructive discussion with it-but as you can read in the subsequent posts, it was slammed by one individual who could not read past the words written. At that point the thread became usless IMHO.


Anyway, I am not cheerleading HL. I am just exploring different reasons why their workmanship seems to be all over the board on different issues.

With that said, let me be the first to say I still feel like I received a lot of value for the dollars spent.
//heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/12001-Heartland-and-quot-quality-quot-(long)?highlight=quality

Larry, I went back and read the post you were referring to. Good post. With respect to section #3, "The Factory View", this is where I see the issue being created. A mandate to build quality units has to come from the top. In any job, compensation drives individual and corporate behaviors. If employees are in some way penalized (monetarily or otherwise) for producing fewer units, they are going to do what is necessary to make sure they maximize volume. Even at the expense of quality. I have noticed too many things on my rig that just scream "rush job". Example, the wire gatherer thing in the basement was not screwed in. Just dangling there.

I feel like I have to reiterate with every post, lest someone take my words out of context, I'm not a dissatisfied customer. I'd just love to see the quality and attention to detail improve. I think Heartland would be better for it, even if it meant the units had to cost a little bit more.

ihsolutions said:

, I'm not a dissatisfied customer. I'd just love to see the quality and attention to detail improve. I think Heartland would be better for it, even if it meant the units had to cost a little bit more.

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I believe there are a lot of us that feel just this way. We have been down this road so many times and we have seen some improvements but somehow we end up back here year after year. Thank you for saying it this way.

Mark