I finally found it....frame sag at the front overhang

Bob&Patty

Founders of SoCal Chapter
Well, this week I really went after trying to find the reason for the front overhang/frame flex when hooked to the TV. This has been getting progressively worse for the last 2 years. Lippert..."NORMAL" Yea right.

Well, after almost removing all of the overhang lower cover to check the bolts that hold the B/R floor to the frame.....I FOUND THE PROBLEM. You will never believe this.

1st...I removed all the self tapping screws that hold the B/R floor to the frame. Applied lots of "loctite" and reinstalled them. Hooked up to the TV. NO HELP...

2nd...Looked at every inch of frame work I could see. No cracks..no broken weld....NO NOTHING. BUT, I can still push a screwdriver thru the "V" molding that goes up and across the over hang. WHAT THE &^%@.

3rd...I opened the LP doors and started looking around. In the outer front corner you can see where the side wall aluminum frame and the front compartment aluminum frames come together. Now one would think that they would be glued, screwed or somehow attached together at corner. Well, you would be WRONG....VERY WRONG. On this BH...built 07 of 2006....there is at least a 1/2" gap between the 2. While inspecting all this, I happened to run my fingers up and down the gaps. Guess what I found. A very febble attempt to fasten them together. Are you ready for this??? Before the overhang cardboard/fiberglass cover was installed...someone at the plant thought..." hum..4 #10X2" self tapping screws should hold both these walls together". WHAT???? 3 of them where rusted thru and broken 1 was still hanging in there..barely. I'm not a mechanical engineer by any means....but "COME ON MAN"... 4#10 sheet metal screws to hold the front compartment frame to the coach wall frames!!!!

4th...So now I have to figure out how the fix this. After accessing this problem, the lite came on ....6..1/4" X 4 1/2" long sheet metal screws and 6 1/4" washers where used to screw the wall frames together. This required removing the molding trim on the front overhang....AGAIN....and... AGAIN (installed a zipper this last time). Notching out the overhang material for the screws and washers. That way they would not protrude to interfear with the molding trim. Drilling a 3/16th hole thru both the front and side framing members and screwing them together with a liberal amount of "locktite". Even after doing this, there was still a gap between the 2 frames. So then I had to make shims from some 1/4" plywood, remove the screws and make the shims one at a time.

The good news is that the problem is now solved. No sag in the moldings now. The front of the BH won't fall off now. If anyone has an older BH and has the sagging molding problem....look at what I did and do an inspection. This may be your problem.

I hope that "KaryKratz" read's this and looks to see how these units are built. Kary, all that was holding the front overhang on our BH was "1" #10 sheet metal screw. "1" screw dude. Am I an unhappy camper....yes I am. Just spent 2 days (my weekend) putting our BH back together for a trip in 3 weeks. OH, BTW, it was 102* both days and it wont fit in the house where the A/C was on.

JB, Jimtoo, Cookie...sorry about this rant......BUT. I never owned a coach that I have spent so much time piecing back together after every trip than this BH. It's always just little things...screws falling out..trim falling off. Then this last thing. I really don't mind spending some time on maintaining this thing...but every weekend? I have better things to do with my time. JB, I saved the 1 screw and I'm bringing it to Buellton and you can give it to Kary at the plant.
 
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patrick1945

Well-known member
Very disappointing... Can you imagine how the media would jump on this if this was a product "manufactured" by the American automobile industry? Between this and the delaminating "waterproof" slide floors you would think that Heartland would show up in the RV magazine that posts complaints and their resolutions.
 

cookie

Administrator
Staff member
Bob, you gotta get the poison out. But on the plus side someone on this forum will benefit from your misfortune and repair. Thanks for that.
Patrick1945, My guess is if your not seeing Heartland in the RV magazine complaints tells me that other manufacturers have more problems than HL. They all have their share.

Peace
Dave
 

JohnDar

Prolifically Gabby Member
If you piece all of the things we have to do to maintain these rigs, we should all have Ph.D's in Mechanical Engineering, Fluid Hydraulics, and Structural Engineering. That, and be Master Mechanics and Woodworkers.

One of the best things about this forum is that it's an "open classroom."

In your case, Bob, all I can say is: "****!" (the thing that holds water back). Perhaps a blindfold and last cigarette for the crew that built your rig...
 

Bob&Patty

Founders of SoCal Chapter
Thanks guys for the support. It's just hard to believe all this. Just to let everyone know...I have calmed down now. It's over and done now. Thats a good thing...it's going to be over 110* today.

John, the way the front wall of the coaches are installed. If the 4 screws into the 2 framing members broke and the 3 screws at the bottom broke, there is nothing to keep that part of the wall from coming off and dropping. NOTHING....but maybe a little silicone sealer. The screws that hold on the overhang cover and the "V" molding only screw into the front wall and the aluminum horizontal tubing under the B/R. NOTHING ELSE.

No SJH, no pix. I was so upset that I was afraid that I might do something BAD to Patty's camera.

Here's one thing all of you can look for. Look at where the aluminum frame for the front wall runs across the bottom of the compartment under the door. On our trip to the Rally in Jackson last year, when I opened the compartment door, I could see light where the aluminum and the steel angle iron part of the frame was...lower part at the front across the bottom. The opening was a least a 1/2" all the way across (side to side). I found 3 # 8 sheet metal screws laying on the floor. They had all pulled out of the aluminum frame member. Steel frame... soft aluminum, 3 #8 screws... which will give 1st? I did not have anyway of repairing it at the time. So as luck would have it...it poured rain all the way home. When we arrived at home everything in the front compartment was soaking wet. I did say some BAD words...Patty just stayed in the house.

BTW, today I have to make the iron gate to the rear yard puppy proof. We will pick up our new puppy tomorrow. She is a Belguim Shepperd mix. 8 weeks old and a rescue dog. Just cuter than a pix of Jimtoo in his red suit. "NOT" I guess Patty has some pix on her FB page. I know that JB has seen them.
 
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slmayor

Founding California Northern Chapter Leader
Bob, I need some pics! We just had the front of ours off this weekend. Have some molding on the drivers side along the bottom of the overhang that won't stay put. Like yours, no broken welds, everything looks fine, but I am tired of caulking and re-caulking that 2 ft. piece of trim. We did replace some screws with a little longer ones. will see if that helps. Ours is an 08, built in 3 of '07.
 

SJH

Past Washington Chapter Leaders
Here's one thing all of you can look for. Look at where the aluminum frame for the front wall runs across the bottom of the compartment under the door. On our trip to the Rally in Jackson last year, when I opened the compartment door, I could see light where the aluminum and the steel angle iron part of the frame was...lower part at the front across the bottom. The opening was a least a 1/2" all the way across (side to side). .

With our front storage door open, the aluminum frame on the sides has at least 1/2 inch gap. Seeing daylight is not an issue...I can see the neigbors yard!! This compartment has always leaked...I thought this was "normal" The gap is so big and the same on both sides I thought that everything was OK! I better have another look!
 

mountainlovers76

Mississippi Chapter Leaders
...the way the front wall of the coaches are installed. If the 4 screws into the 2 framing members broke and the 3 screws at the bottom broke, there is nothing to keep that part of the wall from coming off and dropping. NOTHING....but maybe a little silicone sealer. The scews that hold on the overhang cover and the "V" molding only screw into the front wall and the aluminum horizontal tubing under the B/R. NOTHING ELSE.


Here's one thing all of you can look for. Look at where the aluminum frame for the front wall runs across the bottom of the compartment under the door. On our trip to the Rally in Jackson last year, when I opened the compartment door, I could see light where the aluminum and the steel angle iron part of the frame was...lower part at the front across the bottom. The opening was a least a 1/2" all the way across (side to side). I found 3 # 8 sheet metal screws laying on the floor. They had all pulled out of the aluminum frame member. Steel frame... soft aluminum, 3 #8 screws... which will give 1st?

I have gone through the same thing with my Big Horn. I had to remove the entire front overhang to find the problem. Only four sheet metal screws holding the front aluminum frame to the rest of the coach. Two were broken off, one stripped out and the one still holding was only barely. Also, the steel angle iron under the bedroom at the top of the front wall was pulled apart just as you described yours. There were twelve predilled holes in the angle iron to have screws to secure it to the aluminum frame above. Only FIVE holes ever had screws in them. Threee of those were broke off, one fell out when i removed the panel and one was halfway pulled out. The other seven holes had never had a screw in them as evidenced by simply looking through them and seeing only solid material above. No holes at all to even say a screw had been and maybe pulled out. Just never there. One major difference on mine is that I did have major breaks in some of the steel beams and supports under the bedroom area just above where the propane tanks are located. Very poor welding job. Most were just small tack welds and only on the top of the very thin walled supports. Flexed enough when on the TV that it cracked the outer fibergalss wall above the bedroom slide. I had to do major repairs and am just now trying to get them finished. I really have no idea what else may be broken up inside the walls. It is yet to be determined how it will hold up since it will be end of October before I make my next trip after trying to repair the mess I found. I was really high on Heartland when I first purchased my coach but over the past two and a half years I have really become disheartened in Heartland due to numerous repairs. And I am not referring to things that will break by bouncing down roads...I expect those to happen, I am talking about major structural items that are just poor design or poorly welded and beams and supports just not strong enough to bear the load they are being used for. I hope everyone has better luck with their rig than I have mine. I do not ever see another Heartland in my future. The interior and exterior look great....but what you can't see in between until it has broken has left a bitter taste in my mouth.
 

jimtoo

Moderator
Thanks guys for the support. *******************************************
BTW, today I have to make the iron gate to the rear yard puppy proof. We will pick up our new puppy tomorrow. She is a Belguim Shepperd mix. 8 weeks old and a rescue dog. Just cuter than a pix of Jimtoo in his red suit. "NOT" I guess Patty has some pix on her FB page. I know that JB has seen them.

Ain't NO WAY that dogs gonna be cuter than this sly old Fox!!!!
 

Bob&Patty

Founders of SoCal Chapter
Jim....just way tooooooo much grey in your muzzle.

Ricky, have you ever called HL about this issue?? I know for a fact that HL has had owners bring their coaches to the factory and repaired them. Even when out of warranty. Can't hurt to call Jim Fenner.
 

caissiel

Senior Member
That frame support section problem is the first thing I fixed on my unit last year. I was afraid the front wall would fall off.
like the author there was a few screws holding.

I screwed in 3/8" head self tapping screws, similar to the ones holding the belly sheet, every 8 inches, all along the bottom.

Mine is a 2009 model, how many are out there ready to fall out.

Since then I have a full package of these screws to repairs the stuff around the unit.
 

Bob&Patty

Founders of SoCal Chapter
Laurent, it was not the screws in the lower aluminum cross frame that caused the problem. It was "NO SUPPORT" on the vertical frame work at both sides at the side walls. The front compartment wall was falling OFF the coach. I did repair the lower frame work last year....but I did not know what was really happening at that time. I repaired that problem with 12 1/4" pop rivets and structural adhesive. Guaranteed "not to rip-rattle or bust out at the seams" now.

I cannot believe that a structural engineer would attempt to hold 1/8th thick soft aluminum square tubing to a piece of 3/16th steel angle iron with sheet metal screws. This needs something a little better than that. In therory that might work...but... the aluminum won't hold to the steel. The steel won't flex like aluminum. Any kind of twisting or flexing will rip out the screws.

Now on the flip side, the 4 #10 sheet metal screws to hold the side walls from twisting and flexing by the front compartment frame work is just absured. Another observation I made while working on this is.... all of the front compartment aluminum frame members where welded on only one side. Not all the way around on ANY joint and NO gussets to stop shifting/flexing back and forth. That is like the tab on a "pop top" can. It does not take much flexing to break them off. I have to admit that they where very good welds...just not enough.

So far today. I have recieved 5 PM's and 3 phone calls on this. All BH's and some as new as an 09. Does this mean that HL is still only using 4 #10 sheet metal screws to hold the front wall on??? I'm sure I will get more, and thats OK. I just hope that I can help someone fix their coach. Minus my time, I think I spent about $10.00 and if I had known what the problem was from the beginning, it would take about 3 hours to repair.

Maybe KaryKratz can chime in on this thread and give all of us some insite on this matter.

P.S. PM me...I am more than willing to help....BUT... give me a PH# .......I hate typing.................Bob
 

aatauses

Well-known member
I had a similar issue (and have a post somewhere on it), when hitched the molding would separate from the side about 3/8". I was into a dealer to have a CP installed and he dropped the undersheet under the kingpin to take a look. Several screws were missing and then he found that the frame supporting the king pin was not actually attached to the frame supporting the coach---basically missing welds. HL customer service was again great on this issue and fully understood the situation.
They attached the screws and did some welding--so far it appears to have fixed the issue.
al
 

loafer

Well-known member
Bob
Sorry to hear of all these problems.Before you couldnt spell Mechanical engineer now you are one!After all that work someone else can benifit form your experience.Hope it all is fixed now and its a shame that it wasnt done right in the first place.
Hang in there it can only get better and have a safe trip out in a couple of weeks
Best regards
Bill
 

Bob&Patty

Founders of SoCal Chapter
Bill, thanks and we will see if my fix....fixed it. We are going to the Buellton Rally up north from here. Got to have some quality time with Larry and JB. LOL
 

mountainlovers76

Mississippi Chapter Leaders
Ricky, have you ever called HL about this issue?? I know for a fact that HL has had owners bring their coaches to the factory and repaired them. Even when out of warranty. Can't hurt to call Jim Fenner.

No I have not called HL. Even if they would do the repairs, I could not take it to their factory. The way I work it would cost me more to take it to the factory than just doing it myself. So please don't anyone think I am saying HL doesn't stand behind their product. From what I can tell from others they do go the extra mile many tinmes. It is just my option to do the work myself due to logistics, time and cost.

What bothers me is the quality of the materials and construction methods used that are not seen until you have a problem and have to "open" some area to work on or find a problem. A BIG problem I had was what Bob&Patty already described...quote "Another observation I made while working on this is.... all of the front compartment aluminum frame members where welded on only one side. Not all the way around on ANY joint ..." end quote. Not only is it the aluminum frame but the steel framework inside as well. Two major breaks on mine were the boxed steel cross members under the bedroom area welded to the sides members on the "top only". A four sided steel tube with one small weld on the top. One weld broke copmpletely off and the other split the steel channel below the weld. This was the main support that keeps the entire front overhang connected to the rest of the coach. If the weld had been all the way around, or even top and down each side, I believe it would have never come close to breaking. I saw many welds of this nature and other tack welds that were also cracked. There are other structural weakness as well, such as the floor of the storage area sagging badly, almost two inches. If you look underneath there is NO support between the frame I-beams at all. The storage area is large, which I love by the way, but why would anyone build an area that large and not support it with cross members to the frame. I have 2" steel channel iron coming to install between the I-Beams to support the floor. I will have to use boards and a bottle jack to get it back up level. Also the front storage compartment has NO support at the very front underneath it as well. I have the factory installed Gen Prep and the frame for the Genny to sit on is just bolted to a piece of sheet metal stretched between the I-Beams. It also has sagged over 2 inches and that is WITHOUT having a generator installed. I dare say with the weight of a generator in place it would tear the sheetmetal off the bottom of the coach I have 3" angle iron coming to add as a support for that as well and at the same time it will help support the front aluminum frame that was held on by the four small sheetmetal screws. I am truly amazed at the engineers who came up with these designs. I could go on with other "what I would call serious" design flaws but guess I have vented enough. I simply wish Heartland would not only stand behind their products but stand a little more in front of them during the design and construction phase.
 

ihsolutions

Well-known member
This thread would be so much more valuable with pictures of the issues being discussed. I have a 2011 Big Horn sitting in my driveway and want to go check to see if I have any such issue, but I'm having a very difficult time understanding exactly what everyone is talking about. A picture really is worth a thousand words...
 

wdk450

Well-known member
I am having a hard time envisioning all of these locations without seeing pictures, but next visit to the trailer, I will try.
Would it be better to obtain stainless steel self tapping screws for their greater strength and rust resistance?? Would bolts and nuts be even better than metal screws, or is that impossible??
 

jmgratz

Original Owners Club Member
This thread would be so much more valuable with pictures of the issues being discussed. I have a 2011 Big Horn sitting in my driveway and want to go check to see if I have any such issue, but I'm having a very difficult time understanding exactly what everyone is talking about. A picture really is worth a thousand words...

The area being discussed is the horizontal area around the kingpin back to the vertical area in the area behind the kingpin.
 
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