PDA

View Full Version : What's wrong with this picture?



jmgratz
01-04-2011, 10:42 PM
There was a Police Officer killed in this shootout which my heart is heavy about. However, we can all learn a lesson from bad incidents. Look how the Police Officers responding are using PROPANE tanks for shields from the suspect's gunfire. Another Officer in front of the tanks was even shot in the arm. Propane tanks do not make a good safe barricade from hostile gunfire!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAjOIn7Mtc4&feature=player_embedded#!

Ray LeTourneau
01-04-2011, 11:42 PM
I saw this report on the news last night. Sad situation for sure. It doesn't appear they had much of a choice for a barricade. At least from the video.

wyleyrabbit
01-05-2011, 01:39 AM
Very sad. My heart goes out to the deputy's family. :-(

Moose
01-05-2011, 08:33 PM
That is so sad. Someone's daughter, wife, and mother was murdered. She didn't even get a chance to return fire according to the clip.

My condolences.

Jimmy
01-05-2011, 08:48 PM
Some time you have to get behind anything you can, there is a difference in concealment and cover. but you don't always get a choice. These officers did the best they could and the bad guy got what he deserved. God bless the slain officers family.

jmgratz
01-07-2011, 10:29 AM
I believe they arrived in their Patrol Vehicles. Their engine block would be much better cover than a Propane tank. We all need to learn from tragedy so it does not repeat itself. I am sure most police agencies 'Monday morning quarterback' these types of incidents just like the Houston Police Dept does so other officers don't put themselves in harms way. The most positive thing about the incident is the suspect will not be 'clogging' up the justice system with endless appeals. May God be with the families and Officers involved in this incident.

beardedone
01-07-2011, 08:16 PM
Hi Jim
Myself, being a retired peace officer, I wouldn't want to depend on my car for protection. Arriving on a scene like this doesn't leave many choices but it is paramount to get out of the car as soon as possible. Propane tanks for cover wouldn't be my first choice but sometimes you do have to deal with the hand that is dealt to you. Too many P.O.'s have been shot in their cars or very near them, many times without warning. I do agree that being next to a propane tank would make me uncomfortable but the rate of fire being applied from that position probably helped him out a lot!

porthole
01-08-2011, 11:22 AM
Just my opinion.

I've seen propane tanks hit by rifle fire and not explode, but that doesn't meant I want to be anywhere near one.
The round may go through and release the liquid/gas depending on the location.

The officer seated and firing apparently is not covered by the tank, he got hit in the left arm.

Still trying to figure out where the AR guy went

OhioJay
01-10-2011, 06:00 PM
Police officer: "Could everyone please stop for a moment while we assess the situation and find suitable, safe cover?"

Gunman: "oh, okay. Sorry. Go ahead"

The above scenario is just as ridiculous as the guy who started this thread second guessing the police. Seriously?

Yes, you're right, not the best move ever. But using your logic, why didn't the cops just drive a car right into the gunmans tailer. Better yet, bring in the helicopter and have an airiel assault. Do you think the police were concerned about the safety of their concealment? Or maybe more concerned with protecting the folks in the other camper, and the rest of the campground? How do you suppose you might do if you had someone shooting at you, it's freezing cold outside, and it was your job to protect people and apprehend the gunman? Remember...you're not quite sure exactly what's going on. You don't know the gunmans capabilities or intent. Now, while all that is happening, choose a safe place for you to do your job. Ready...go.

That's great that you are able to distinguish what is a safe area from a dangerous area from the comforts of home. Good for you that in your calm, normal, controlled, non-time sensitive environment you were able to spot something that could create a dangerous situation (beyond what is already a terrifying, dangerous situation). But your inferrence that these officers did something wrong, or maybe didn't quite think things through is ridiculous. What a disgusting comment.

jayc
01-10-2011, 06:33 PM
Ohiojay, Jim was merely pointing out the error in judgement of the responding officers in taking cover behind the propane bottles. Many times Police Officers are killed or wounded after making errors such as this, and by bringing this to other's attention might just save another officer's life. I also believe that he was, as I was, a Field Training Officer.

Your tone is most objectionable sir. No one likes criticism, but if it is done in a constructive manner, others can learn.

Moose
01-10-2011, 08:56 PM
Jayc . . . . you are a diplomat for sure. Handled well.

jmgratz
01-10-2011, 11:29 PM
Police officer: "Could everyone please stop for a moment while we assess the situation and find suitable, safe cover?"

Gunman: "oh, okay. Sorry. Go ahead"

The above scenario is just as ridiculous as the guy who started this thread second guessing the police. Seriously?





\

Yes, you're right, not the best move ever. But using your logic, why didn't the cops just drive a car right into the gunmans tailer. Better yet, bring in the helicopter and have an airiel assault. Do you think the police were concerned about the safety of their concealment? Or maybe more concerned with protecting the folks in the other camper, and the rest of the campground? How do you suppose you might do if you had someone shooting at you, it's freezing cold outside, and it was your job to protect people and apprehend the gunman? Remember...you're not quite sure exactly what's going on. You don't know the gunmans capabilities or intent. Now, while all that is happening, choose a safe place for you to do your job. Ready...go.

That's great that you are able to distinguish what is a safe area from a dangerous area from the comforts of home. Good for you that in your calm, normal, controlled, non-time sensitive environment you were able to spot something that could create a dangerous situation (beyond what is already a terrifying, dangerous situation). But your inferrence that these officers did something wrong, or maybe didn't quite think things through is ridiculous. What a disgusting comment.


To clarify my position. I am a retired Police Officer and served as such for 31 years. I was in the Training Division for over 16 of those years and have trained over 8000 Police Officers. One thing we always tried to do in the training aspect was look at tactical situations and even though they are many times tragic, attempt to look at mistakes that my have been made to learn from them. Then history will not repeat itself. Numerous Officers have told us our Monday morning quarterbacking has prevented them from putting themselves in harms way. The active and retired officers on this forum understand that. Please don't take my statements as criticism of the incident responding officers but only as a learning experience. Stay safe.

JohnDar
01-10-2011, 11:51 PM
There are always "lessons learned" from any hazardous operation. We do it in the Fire Service (I am also a Training Officer) and the Police do it, as well. Doesn't matter what the eventual outcome was, there is always something to be learned for the next time. Looking at the several videos, it appears the heavy fire unit clustered in front of the adjoining trailer in hasty positions to contain the shooter, yet there were some manuevering units seen in other videos. The one officer that was wounded in the video, firing his pistol from the seated position, was not behind any kind of cover. No telling why he took that position, but he presented a target sitting out there like that. That would be something to discuss during the after-action debrief, what to do if you find yourself hanging out there when the shooting starts.

For the slain officer, unfortunately, she did not have a chance from what I read about the incident. Fortunately, aluminum trailers are not bullet-proof and justice was served.