possible upgrades

russell

Member
Hello, I'm posting for the first time. We just purchaced a cyclone 4012 w/full throttle / metal av pkg. We pick it up in a week or so.
I have been reading about the water tank problems such as venting/siphoning and falling down through the supports. These problems where on 3795 models. Do these problems exist on the 4012? More importantly have they been corrected for the 2008 model year? Any information is appreciated.
Thanks,
Russ
 

Scott

Well-known member
Russell - you are inquiring into an issue that has been talked about and discussed many different times in the forum. I was hoping some one would direct you to those discussions where you could read all about it. With so many posts coming through to me each day - it is really nice that most often, questions are answered by veteran forum members.
I will tell you this - the "problems" you mention are simply inherrent in large, flat tanks. We all use them and no, the problem is not insurmountable - in fact, you will read many different ways to save every drop of water on this forum - with the most common being installing valves that you can use to shut off the over flow vents on the tank. We HAVE to have the overflow vents on the tank per code. The reason we don't install the shut off valves on these vents is the opportunity for someone to overfill their tank and explode it through the floor.
After you read up on this, if you have any more questions, let me know.
ST
 

russell

Member
Scott,thanks for the response. I now understand why the factory can't do the upgrades that Loco and Chopper Bill have done. Now I'm even more excited to pick up the cyclone and dig in!

Also, thanks to Gawelsh for responding.

Russ
 

mufflerman

Well-known member
russell,
A few people suggest puting on valve's to fix problem, Why patch a factory error, The correct way is to run the vents up to the fill point.
like trailer manufacturer's have been doing for years. Loco is doing a great job of building his trailer correctly. I wish heartland had the pride in workmanship that loco has. After Just flat telling my dealer the vent lines will be run up to fill point - they did and guess what - it works great with no water loss and no VALVES to open & close. good luck.
 

Scott

Well-known member
I'm sorry mufflerman, but calling this a "factory error" just is not correct. We have not reinented the wheel here. The fresh water tanks in towable products have always been mandated to have vents to meet code. And these vents have always allowed the possibility for creating a vacuum when the tank is full and the water is swishing back and forth. The issues for dry campers have really begun to surface over the last two to three years as the demand for larger and larger tanks has taken us to this point. The reason that we have not hooked the vents to the fill is because our tests showed that the tank could still expand enough to damage either the floor or the underbelly while the water pressure was building while the water made it's way through the four vents up to the fill. It's not because we don't know what we are doing. We have to balance a person's wants with what we know to be safe. We have people who have adapted our tanks to vent straight up through the floor and out of the side of the coach. While a few manufacturer's do this, Heartland does not. Why don't we do this from the factory? Again, because we test things and that layout still offers the possibility (I'm not saying the "probability" but really the possibility) for the tank to expand and damage the coach. We cannot have people blowing their tanks through their floors (yes that has happened a number of times in this industry). With others it may be fine, but until we come up with something this fulproof, we will continue to error on the side of safety.
ST
 

mufflerman

Well-known member
Scott
I call this a error because you can't vent the water tank out the bottom of the r.v. It needs to vent above the tank high enough so it doesn't slosh out.
I don't believe it takes very much pressure to push water up 3 ft' threw 8 ft' of 1/2 in. hose, The plastic tank will expand somewhat, but not enough to push up steel or alum. floor joists. I here some of these tank's are falling out the bottom, This is due to lack of support brace's. If more vents are nessesary then run a two inch air vent threw the roof, along with a 1/2 in. next to the fill port so we know when tank is full.
There's a port next to fill port designed for a vent hose.
I know I enjoy 100 plus gallons of fresh water because we like to dry camp for up to a week with a family of four ( when I can borrow it from the service dept.) This is one of the reasons I traded my 01' winnibago class c motorhome that had a 30 gal. tank, But it would be nice to have 100 plus gallons of water when you get to your destination.
 
K

Ken Washington

Guest
I don't want to sound like I am defending Scott or Heartland but we need to understand that these units ARE Not made to live in full time nor are they suppose to hold 833 lb.'s of water! I realize that there are problems with all products that we buy from time to time, but I don't think that this much volume of water is what most owners want to haul or need. Please don't get upset with me, this is just my thoughts on this matter!

Ken
 

Forrest Fetherolf

Senior Member
Scott at Heartland,
If your tests show that you can fill the tank faster than four 1/2" vent lines can vent, then install an inline flow restrictor to limit the fill rate. If the fill rate is excessive, the water spills out the fill inlet and alerts the "hose operator" to reduce the flow at the hose bib. This would eliminate any possibility of pressurizing the tank. The vent lines could be factory installed to vent above the tank, as is in all liquid holding tank applications, and we Hearland RV owners would not have to improvise.
On my 3600RL one of the four vent line vents at the fill inlet and the other three vent below the tank in a group near the axles. I joined the three with one 1/2" "L" and two "T". I ran a 1/2" line from the joined vents to the area under the sanitation compartment and installed a shut off valve. I open the vent valve to fill the tank. When the tank is full, water will flow from the valve. Close the vent valve and go RVing without leaving a water trail along the way.
 

nhunter

Well-known member
Just a thought. I have also thought about this mod but if you tie 3-1/2" hoses into 1-1/2" hose, don't you still have only 1/2" of venting and still able to blow your tank. I would think you should have a 3/4" hose to still allow proper venting as Heartland designed. Maybe? What do you think
 

Forrest Fetherolf

Senior Member
nhunter,
3/4" is ok, but not necessary. The critical time is when filling the tank. On my application, when I open the vent valve, that is the second 1/2" vent open, the other vent is always open at the fill tube.
Once you stop filling the tank, the possiblity of pressurizing is gone, except for heat expansion. A single 1/2" line would compensate for that and will eliminate the vaccum effect when pulling water from the tank.
I learned over the years to just slow down when filling the tank. I have seen motor homes filled to fast that the tank expanded in the compartment and crushed the air ducts to the bedroom.
 

Forrest Fetherolf

Senior Member
Ken Washington,
I'll go th the defense of Mufflerman. Common sense will tell you that vents are vents and drains are drains. Vents go up and drains go down. They don't mix very well. Why doesn't the black and grey tanks vent this way............illegal? Ditto for the water. The factory just screwed up on their design and won't admit it. It is an easy fix on the new rvs if they want to implement the right procedure.
 

Loco

Well-known member
nhunter
You are right about putting 3- 1/2 hoses into one 1/2 hose you still have a 1/2 vent. But the lines that were on my Cyclone were not 1/2 ID hoses. They were 3/8 ID hoses. So when I ran the new lines on my rig I used true 1/2 ID marine hose.I also made sure the vent hose was mounted to the floor of the rig so that it would not get water trapped in the line and cause blockage of air till the tank is full. Also the fill line is a 1" 1/4 and and I relocated it so it did not have any low places in it. So if I fill it with a 1/2 water hose and do not fill it to fast air can vent out the fill line also.It all boils down to teaching the owners how to fill the tanks right. But I still say that when you have 912 lbs of water hanging under a trailer it better be mounted to hold it.The right way to vent it would be the way we vent fire apparatus tanks and that is with a vent two time the size of the fill line.We fill poly tanks from 250 gals to 3500 gals with 2 1/2 " line with a flow rate of 250 gals a min. But the vent is 4 inches in a 8 inch fill tower. I under stand where Heartland is coming from about safety. Most people have no idea about fill rates and vent rates. But the tanks still need to hold all the water you put in it and make the brackets strong enough to hold the tank up under the trailer.The tank manufactures need to put bigger vents in the tank if they are worried about some blowing them up.We all will come up with new ideas I am sure and hope we will share them all with each other. And as for why we need this much water is that we has Toyhauler owners we go to places where there is no water any where near us. Like a out in the middle of 250 acre field for a week. To that end I will say again over all the Cyclone is a very nice Toyhauler and Heartland did listen to my troubles and made it right in the end for us. We all know they are a new company and have growing pains. I hope they keep working on making it better.
 
Last edited:

nhunter

Well-known member
I forgot about the vent in the fill bib. After working with high pressure pumps knew to always make relief equal to of preferably bigger than discharge or else things go bang.
 

Scott

Well-known member
Just a note - thanks for all of the practical ideas and concepts discussed in this thread. I have our engineers tuned into your ideas as well. We will do our best to adapt our system to fit as many of your needs as possible.
ST
 
C

Cyclone1

Guest
I want second that. As the product manager of the Cyclone line some of the best ideas come from our customers and dealers. This product is truely a result of the end user and we need you support and input. Thank You!
 
Top