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katkens
09-26-2007, 07:42 PM
I hope this link works very interesting, CEO Of NuWa bad mouthing HeartLand......www.nuwaowners.org/forum//index.php?topic=2847.0 (http://www.nuwaowners.org/forum//index.php?topic=2847.0) working now....Ken

snuffy
09-26-2007, 08:51 PM
Very interesting the way they went off on the Heartlands and not very classy I must say. I'm a little more neutral as I don't have a Heartland yet, but the Big Horn is at the top of our list. I can also see where they are coming from on some of the unseen area quality issues. I was not overly impressed on the answer about the fresh water tanks. Everybody wants quality but are not willing to sacrifice any profits to make it what it should be. I see that in every industry. I also understand that a good profit must be made to stay in business. I just want a quality engineered and constructed RV, be it trailer, 5er, or motorhome. I still believe it can be done, but don't really believe any manufacturer has come close to perfection yet. I have seen some shoddy workmanship on high end motorhomes and that is uncalled for. I will never understand why a dealer will let a unit sit on the lot for public view with things like cabinets falling off the wall, carpet all wrinkled up, doors horribly misaligned, etc. Since they must be fixed, why not go ahead and make it presentable before it is opened to the public? To me it says something of the initial quality and what might be unseen. Every forum I have visited has its members who have seemingly major problems. I'd be willing to bet that the NuWas are no exception. I have more opinions but will let it rest for a while.

katkens
09-26-2007, 09:10 PM
snuffy, well said and I too could not believe a CEO would write what he did and not think it would not get out. I found this post on my previous trailers forum , so guess it will make the rounds to others also.....Ken

snuffy
09-26-2007, 09:18 PM
snuffy, well said and I too could not believe a CEO would write what he did and not think it would not get out. I found this post on my previous trailers forum , so guess it will make the rounds to others also.....Ken

I wonder if Mike, the CEO, owns the website. I must say he does a good bit of posting. Today is the first time I have been to their forum. He certainly doesn't pull any punches. If he can back it up it ain't bragging.

katkens
09-26-2007, 09:25 PM
Snuffy don't know who runs the forum over there either. I still can not believe one thinks Heartland is selling trailers for cost of materials. I can see the floorplan stuff but how many new plans can a commpany come up with that has not already been built. I think there sales must be off and he has to vent somewhere.:)

snuffy
09-26-2007, 09:49 PM
Snuffy don't know who runs the forum over there either. I still can not believe one thinks Heartland is selling trailers for cost of materials. I can see the floorplan stuff but how many new plans can a commpany come up with that has not already been built. I think there sales must be off and he has to vent somewhere.:)

Precisely.

katkens
09-26-2007, 10:32 PM
Precisely.

Speaking of precisely I was wondering about his last sentence. Quote: My thanks to the customers who support our efforts even though they are not always as positive as we would like.

FLSTS03
09-26-2007, 10:38 PM
As a netural/future 5er owner it does not suprise me that floorplans are duplicated,lets face it you have less sq feet than in a lot of folks living room and on top of that it has to roll. Also, as a Plumbing wholesaler and past plumber,pictures posted here on back falling drainage didn't exactly flip my flop. I have competors driving down prices needlessly all the time and in the long run it will be the end user who suffers/takes profits to provide that great service we all want and pay for. I certainly don't mind the manufacture making a dollar on us, just don't want them tp make two(aparently NuWa's position). What I would be concerned about is NuWa's CEO just upset because his units are overpriced or does he have valid points and is Heartland riping them off. Certainly has me thinking about the whole RV quality thing and even if quality suffers a little I still believe that all in all, RV's price per sq ft is a bargin condidering a 500 sq ft condo on the gulf of mexico rus 400k. By the way if my daughter and wife would live on a sailboat(allready told me NO!!!) I would probably find a simular situation within that industry as well. Steve

billd
09-26-2007, 10:46 PM
Just goes to show you how some people are and react. Pretty low way to talk to the Nuwa owners.

Bill

FLSTS03
09-26-2007, 10:57 PM
Another point if I may, construction products have ASTM nubmers that say that perticular product meets a certain minimum standard for that industry. What standards govern the RV industry? If none then a lot of problems exist from a industry with no ,min standards. Example, what if all frames and supports had to meet min hurricans/earthquake specs., everytime you run down a concrete slab @ 75 you are in a min hurricane shaking @ a 3.0. and at the very least a tropical storm.

Steve

BJ'sDad
09-26-2007, 11:12 PM
I find it interesting he seems to think Heartland copied their floorplans when every RV manufacturer in the market has nearly identical floorplans. I wonder who they copied when they brought their models to the market?

Sounds to me more like "sales envy" and nothing more.

I looked at NuWa's, Heartland, Montana's, Mountaineers and Jayco when I was ready to buy, saw little difference in quality between any of them. Biggest difference was price and a dealer who was willing to make a deal.
That's why I bought a Heartland product.

CampingCaptain
09-27-2007, 02:09 AM
It's amazing how one forum hears about what is going on over at a different forum.

I am a member of the NuWa Owners Forum. I've been a member here longer. My wife and I have been researching RV's for several years so that when we retired, we would be able to make a decision on which 5th wheel we would by to go full time in. This is how I ended up becoming a member here.

We looked at the Heartland line of 5th wheels and thought they were a nice looking trailer. Between not being able to find a floor plan that we liked which would give us enough CCC to live full time in and the fact that there were a lot of unhappy Heartland owners on the forum, we decided to look elsewhere. This is not designed to demean anyone's Heartland. I know there are good and bad models in every manufacturers output. I can only tell you what my impression was at the time. I actually received a few pm's from some who didn't want to say anything on the forum.

Anyway, in moving on, we eventually found the NuWa line of trailers which is what we plan to buy. I know that doesn't necessarily interest those who are here to talk about Heartlands. I just wanted to let everyone know that NuWa is the original 5th wheel manufacturer that all other companies that have come after have tried to emulate. Are NuWa's expensive? Yes. But you really do get what you pay for. I think anyone who really compares a Heartland Landmark and a NuWa Champagne can see the difference.

As far as Mike Mitchell's post complaining about Heartlands, I won't try to explain his reason for being upset. I will say that this is not his normal demeanor. He has been very open to the members of the forum as have another dozen or more of his subordinates and section managers. We have been very lucky. I don't think there is another CEO who is so available to his customers. Also, just so you know, NuWa has nothing to do with the forum other than being available to answer questions and help solve issues. The forum was started by three guys who owned NuWa's and they in fact turned down NuWa's offer to help in order to keep the forum what it was intended to be: A place for people who love RV's and just happen to have chosen NuWa to build their RV's

Well, I hope you are all happy with your Heartlands and have good luck with them. I'll go back to my side of the net. :cool:

Bryan Richardson

jbeletti
09-27-2007, 07:25 AM
Hi all,

Just wanted to drop a quick note here to say that I am pleased with the civility displayed in this thread. I plan to leave the thread open so long as it remains civil. I find the thread here and on the NuWa site, very interesting.

At the end of the day, we here are RVers, not manufacturers. And out there in the campgrounds, RVers treat each other in a friendly manner, no matter what brand they own. We can continue to do the same online.

Thank you in advance for treating our friends coming over here from the NuWa forum with respect. Many of them are registering and reading in silence. Some of them may elect to post and that is just fine.

Thanks,

Jim

fishn2dmax
09-27-2007, 08:17 AM
There is no question NuWa makes Great coaches! What I don't understand is a CEO that would publicly whine to his own customers about others manufacturers stealing their designs? Moreover, to imply that the industry suppliers are lowering their quality standards to meet price pressures is nothing new. Hello... Duhhhhh? Name one industry where suppliers are not being pressured on price points? As far as copying floorplans , well....take any ten 5th wheel manufacturers, look at the floorplans for equiv levels ( entry, mid and full time) and you'll see the majority of them all have similar or exact floorplans - There is just so much variation that can be done in such a small space.

I just don't understand why a company with a solid reputation like NuWa would have such a loose cannon as a CEO? As a "CEO" he should be focused on the merits and value of his product offerings and less worried about trashing Heartland ( and other) competitors. In his diatribe of Heartland, he served to validate his own insecurity and lack of confidence in his own company to compete in an increasingly tough market. If I was one of the NuWa company shareholders and / or investors, I would not be a happy camper with such reckless claims and lack of confidence coming from the "CEO".

Pulltab
09-27-2007, 08:23 AM
There is no question NuWa makes Great coaches! What I don't understand is a CEO that would publicly whine to his own customers about others manufacturers stealing their designs? Moreover, to imply that the industry suppliers are lowering their quality standards to meet price pressures is nothing new. Hello... Duhhhhh? Name one industry where suppliers are not being pressured on price points? As far as copying floorfplans , well....take any ten 5th wheel manufacturers, look at the floorplans for equiv levels ( entry, mid and full time) and you'll see the majority of them all have similar or exact floorplans - There is just so much variation that can be done in such a small space.

I just don't understand why a company with a solid reputation like NuWa would have such a loose cannon as a CEO? As a "CEO" he should be focused on the merits and value of his product offerings and less worried about trashing Heartland ( and other) competitors. In his diatribe of Heartland, he served to validate his own insecurity and lack of confidence in his own company to compete in an increasinly tough market. If I was one of the NuWa company shareholders and / or investors, I would not be a happy camper with such reckless claims and lack of confidence coming from the "CEO".

Ditto! Fine statement. :)

katkens
09-27-2007, 08:36 AM
I would like to thank " CampingCaptain " (Bryan) for his view. I would just say I felt insulted reading this posting on another competitors forum and even they were bewildered at some of the statements. I would have to agree NuWa makes a fine RV, looked at them but didn't buy for the same reasons I didn't buy any other brand. I can understand ones loyalty to there product but were all RV people and most of us really like and enjoy our rigs. I feel its wrong for any forum to bash other owners , especially when they have never owned the product ,is HeartLand perfect, no but then again I don't know one that is. I just have one question which I don't want answered but thought about: How would the NuWa forum members feel if this posting and comments were about there company,members and owners?..... Best of Travels to all.....Ken

jpmorgan37
09-27-2007, 09:19 AM
Thank you Ken.

John

Oldlthrneck
09-27-2007, 09:37 AM
Ken, I couldn't agree with you more. I am amazed that a CEO would openly and publicly trash a competitor. I can remember my older sisters sitting around the dinner table talking badly about some of their peers, and my mother asking them how they would like it if this were happening to them. I don't recall that type of conversation after that. lol I spent 10yrs, after my retirement from the Corps, as a full commission salesman. It was my experience that when you are preaching to the choir, this kind of tactic is usually well received, but for prospective buyers, all you usually do is turn a customer off. If you believe that your product is truly the best, it will sell itself on on its own merits. My wife and I spent close to a year, researching and looking at just about every 5th Wheel on the market. Did we find better quality units out there? Of course we did, and with a price to go with them. In the end, it came down to the most we could get for what we could afford. And Heartland was what we decided on. I picked up my Big Horn last friday. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to do as thorough of a PDI as I would have liked. But I have spent every available moment, since picking it up, going over every inch of my rig. I have to say that I am well pleased with what I have. The value for my dollar is definitely built into this unit. It appears that the NU-WA owners are as pleased with their homes as I am, and that is a good thing. I would hope that they would have the same respect for my choice and my home.

arisce
09-27-2007, 09:43 AM
Hi all,

Just wanted to drop a quick note here to say that I am pleased with the civility displayed in this thread. I plan to leave the thread open so long as it remains civil. I find the thread here and on the NuWa site, very interesting.

At the end of the day, we here are RVers, not manufacturers. And out there in the campgrounds, RVers treat each other in a friendly manner, no matter what brand they own. We can continue to do the same online.

Thank you in advance for treating our friends coming over here from the NuWa forum with respect. Many of them are registering and reading in silence. Some of them may elect to post and that is just fine.

Thanks,

Jim
Bravo Jim.
I am proud of this forum and your management. I will not bash another product because it is unfair and childish. Everyone gets hurt with this kind of "mine is better than yours" attitude. Negativity only shows weakness and insecurity.
Once again Bravo. Keep up the good work. You are a good man.

kakampers
09-27-2007, 09:56 AM
When we started looking for a new 5er, trying to replace our HR POS, Nuwa was one of the units we looked at first. And I have to say after going thru a dealer's entire inventory of Hitchhikers of all levels, I for one, was NOT impressed. For the money they wanted for those units, I would not have expected molding falling off the walls and slide faces, cabinetry that was not finished off underneath, etc.

We bought our Bighorn because we got a product, at least just as good, for a considerably lower price. Now I'm not gonna say we haven't had problems...we have. We're actually having a problem right now with our pin box, appears it may be cracked or broken. HOWEVER, Heartland and Lippert have again stepped right up and are taking care of us in a big way!

As long as they stand behind their product, accept responsibility for things done wrong, that's all we can ask for. NO ONE MAKES A PERFECT UNIT!!

Not even Nuwa...

Sol
09-27-2007, 11:21 AM
He also had this to say in a posting back in January - "We have been one of the top five to ten producers of 5th wheels in the country for nearly 40 years, building over 50,000 5th wheel trailers during that time. We will drop to number 11 this year as another mass producer from Elkhart is trying to "buy" their way into the market with low price."

*Source - NuWa Owners Forum

Seems to me, if you have genuine concerns regarding slippage of your overall production position within your industry, commenting on it in an owners forum isn't going to be your most productive approach toward improving that number.

Pulltab
09-27-2007, 11:56 AM
Heartland has hit them where it hurts. :)

broomsburg2002@yahoo.com
09-27-2007, 01:34 PM
I'll bet that Cadillac and Mercedes manufacturers feel the same way as the CEO of Nu-Wa feels. sagolfer

Country
09-27-2007, 02:15 PM
Heartland has hit them where it hurts. :)Exactly

Further more, every poster to this thread has made excellent points.
As a "soon to be" Heartland owner, this thread has made me feel even better about my decision. :)

And Jim, keep up the good work!

Scott
09-27-2007, 04:18 PM
I read the comments by their CEO. Wow. The thought that comes to mind is "sour grapes".
I guess I would be a little disheartened myself if my company which had been around for as long as they have had been completely passed by - by some start up company that has quickly risen to the #4 fifth wheel manufacturer in the world. His post reflects the grumblings of a company that is down, like most of the industry, nearly 20%. Heartland just happens to be the easiest target because of their unprecedented success in a down market.
The shear number of fifth wheels that we produce (nearly 2,500 this year – or 4X what they have produced) - translates into the fact that you are going to find more coaches with some issues. If Nu-Wa is going to go on record that "none" of the coaches they have produced have had issues – I'd like to hear it. Is that played out on their forum – that every coach is perfect and every customer thinks their coaches are perfect? It's possible, but not probable. I take heart, because as you know, there are more Heartland owners on record than ever as being very satisfied with their coaches. Yes, we have made mistakes, and yes, some of our vendor produced products that we have installed have had issues – but w hat is undeniable is that Heartland does everything we can to take care of our customers, issues or not. It should come as no surprise, that as a major player in the towable market, even if you make 99% of the customers happy – our 1% of dissatisfied customers is going to drastically outnumber those of the smaller manufacturers. There are always going to be a percentage of unhappy customers. The reason that Heartland continues to outsell the competition is because even when we do make a mistake, we make it right – and our product simply offers more for the money.
I find it humorous that one of their posts attempted to compare models of Hitchhiker II vs. the Heartland Big Country – just because the floorplan is similar. They aren't even meant to be in the same price category. This is our number three product, down the price point chain. I guess we should be honored that they would bring the Big Country up to the Hitchhiker's level for a comparison – because we have two higher end models (Landmark and Bighorn) that both offer more and are still less expensive.
Forum members understand the "Power of the People". There are a whole lot of people speaking on those sales lots by putting their money down on the Heartland products. We talk to our customers when coming up with new floorplan offerings. Do we look at what others are doing out there – and try to improve on it? You bet we do. We also come up with truly unique floorplans. You have been here when we are looking at what we can do to improve on what floorplans are out there – and you have seen how we take bits and pieces of what has proven successful and done our best to add our own creativity to them. In reality – there have only been so many different fifth wheel configurations over the last ten years that really work and every manufacturer has some version of those core layouts.
In regards to his comments about Heartland not being VERY innovative – where is their universal docking center? Where is their larger, drop frame storage with diamond plate vinyl flooring and steel tie-downs? Where is their 88-degree turning radius for short-bed trucks? Where is their front closet that you can walk into – even on our lower priced models? What he calls "smoke and mirrors" was just issued a Patent by the United States Patent and Trademark Office. This is one thing that exposes the motive of the post the most – claiming that they had some sort of version of this design first. Come on, that's not even close to being the truth. Our design was based on innovative thinking and a desire to come up with a response to all of the people hitting their front caps with their short bed trucks while trying to execute a turn. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he really believed what he wrote – wouldn't he be on the phone with his attorney or call the USPTO himself and file some sort of grievance? He won't because he would lose.
Heartland product sells because it offers a fresh look (not dated), great features, and great value for the money. And we aren't the only ones. There are a number of other 5<SUP>th</SUP> wheel manufacturers who are doing well and keep up with what the customers are demanding. I challenge people to take a close look at our product vs. others. Are the designs and interiors fresh and new – or have they been the same for years? Are their counter tops laminated, or just square edged, or do they have an elegant waterfall edge? Are you stuck with clear glass inserts in the cabinet doors unless you upgrade – or can you get the dark tinted glass inserts like on Heartland's product? Is their work station (desk area) typically small, and tough to fit a computer or actually do work in – or is it roomy like Heartlands? Does their fireplace have a flat, uneventful wooden frame around it – or nice, carved out spindles and mantle like the Heartland? Where is the room for the TV in the bedroom? Does it have built-in flat screen TV, but still offer loads of storage space like the Heartland? Heartland offers a large Dometic microwave convection oven, do they offer a lesser model Dometic? How can their larger coaches not have 7,000 lb. axles like the Heartland, but continue to only offer 6,000 lb.? How about our 12 gallon hot water heater vs. their 6 or 8 gal.? Our 15K A/C vs. their 13.5K? What about their suspension? HL uses a Trail-Air – what do they have as standard? All this – and Heartland is still THOUSANDS LESS than the competition.
This attack just came out of nowhere and honestly, it irks me a little. To those who attack, I say, if you are going to pick a fight – don't bring a pea shooter… Get your facts straight. Are you seriously going to complain because Heartland products are so much less expensive than yours?
To the consumers, I say line them up side by side – feature for feature and you are going to find out the real reason we (Heartland) are getting picked on is a lot of units out there have been judged by the consumer to be over-priced. They are spending their money where they are going to get the most value.
Like always, the customers will decide what they want and where the value is for their investment.
Right now, we are happy with the results as shown in the dramatically increased retail registrations for Heartland.
ST

katkens
09-27-2007, 04:33 PM
Just got back on line to see if everything was still civil here.:) I would like to thank all the members for such good temperament and constructive criticism. I started this post 20 hours ago and already has 696 views and I imagine quite a few are recent new members.
Jim, John an all forum members if you think this thread should be locked go ahead , you won't hurt my feelings......Ken

snuffy
09-27-2007, 04:38 PM
Well, I hope this doesn't escalate into a war of words. I always heard "don't wrestle with a pig because you'll both get dirty and the pig actually likes it." I won't dignify with a response.

lwfox002
09-27-2007, 04:39 PM
I agree with Scott. The reason Heartland has attracted so much attention from them is the inroads they have made into the market. We looked at many units prior to our purchase. All brands had several similar floor plans. We chose the Sundance 2997BHS for it's options, layout, quality and price. We are very happy with our purchase. Very few minor problems. I feel that we received our money's worth. :) :) :)

Tom of Ypsi
09-27-2007, 04:47 PM
All I can say is well said Scott. I have been reading both forums off and on all day and by far this has been the most factual post I have seen. Keep up the good work Heartland.
.
A happy owner

jbeletti
09-27-2007, 09:08 PM
Hi all,

I closed this thread tonight as I felt it has run its course. Ken (katkens) began this thread this morning as he felt it was of interest. After reading the thread on the NuWa forum, I agree.

Product owners can be a loyal lot. We saw some membership growth here and I am sure the NuWa forum saw the same. I saw a lot of brand loyalty here and over there. And I think that's very admirable and Mike at NuWa and Scott at Heartland are most likely very appreciative of that support and loyalty.

Yet as large as the RV industry is, it's a small group of players at the same time. And one never knows what the future holds. So with that comes the closure to this thread.

For our new members today, welcome! Some background to put this all in some context:

My name is Jim Beletti, I own this forum. Three years ago, as brand owners, I co-created it with Jeff Torsrud, now a Double Tree Mobile Suites product owner.

John Morgan (jpmorgan37) is a brand owner and is the forum moderator.

Scott Tuttle is the VP of Marketing at Heartland RVs, LLC and is one of the founding partners. Scott is our primary factory contact as it relates to this forum.

Lets move on and happy camping.

Jim