battery charge system

jpatkat

Member
hi i have a 2014 261 torque , and i havent been able to charge the battery sufficiently by running the generator. What is the amp output from generator to the battery? dealer says there is an increase in voltage but only slightly. definitely not enough to sustain boondocking for and length of time. i specifically wanted the generator so i could do this type of camping.... at times not enough juice in battery to run jack.... no draw detected...help
 

jimtoo

Moderator
Hi jpatkat,

Welcome to the Heartland Owners Forum and to the family. We have a great bunch of folks here with lots of information and all willing to share their knowledge when needed.

I'm sure some of our members with that unit will jump in soon with some info for you. Have you checked all the fuses and also the little 12v breakers by the battery? Some of those 12v breakers will have a small button on the side to reset also.

Jim M
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
Your generator runs the Progressive charger. The Progressive charger is an advanced charger, in that it is a 4 stage charger, meaning it will bulk charge your battery quickly, But to fully charge them it has to charge through acceptance. To do this from a 50% discharged battery will take all day. It seems harsh to you because you are listening to the generator charging a batt all day, and its costing you lots of money to make just a few amps of battery charge. It is nice that you have a generator and you will need it sometimes but the best and least expensive way to charge house batteries is solar. Solar will charge batteries in the same amount of time as your generatorl.

I'm guessing you have a Cummins Onan RV 5500 generator. In your owners guide they have provided a chart that shows charging times for a typical battery charger ran by a onan generator. Its not about what your generator can do, it about how long it takes for your batteries to accept a charge from 50% discharged with a progressive converter/charger.

This is why you hear people complaining about having to run their generators all day to charge their house batts, and fellow campers complaining about people running their generators all day to charge their house batts.

The combination of generator and solar is a good combination for boondocking, but your generator should be reserved for the air conditioning. What you need is about 300 to 450 amp hours of house batts and a solar array and charger to support it. Look at my pics and you will see what I charge my batts with and I never use my generator to charge batts. Hope this helps.

hi i have a 2014 261 torque , and i havent been able to charge the battery sufficiently by running the generator. What is the amp output from generator to the battery? dealer says there is an increase in voltage but only slightly. definitely not enough to sustain boondocking for and length of time. i specifically wanted the generator so i could do this type of camping.... at times not enough juice in battery to run jack.... no draw detected...help
 
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caissiel

Senior Member
I agree on rainy days my batteries show 65% charge on my gauge. On sunny days my 200 watt of solar charges them to 100% by noon.
So for boondocking you start at 65% and draw down to a safe level of 50%.
I always had dead batteries with the power plant. Solar is the only way to keep batteries charged.
 

Lynn1130

Well-known member
You don't say but are you running one 12 volt battery? If so you will never be able to keep enough charge in the battery to power much of anything for any length of time. You will need a minimum of two 6 volt golf batteries if you plan to boon dock for any length of time. I have no problem going 10-14 days on two 6 volts by running the genny about 3 hours in the morning. That is about what it takes for the coffee maker and hair drier to run and that keeps the battery up.

There are several other things that can be done to help and full LED lighting makes a big difference.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
To the OP......You need to study until you get a grip on it. 6v batteries have their place in a house battery application. But they are remnants of days gone by. Depending on how many amp hours you want or if you want to start small go larger, you can minimize your total investment by going 12v. 6v in series Vs 12v in parallel. There are pluses and minuses to each one. There comes a point where 6v are more practical than 12v. but in a 300 to 450 amp hour system you cant beat the weight per dollar per amp hour of the 12v system. In the larger systems 6v still make sense.

Its about amp hours used. You charger has to put back what you take out. It goes back harder than it comes out. So efficiencies suffer. What is happening is your generator is running a charger that bulk charges, this is a rapid charge but can only bring your batteries to about 75 to 80 % of their capacity. The rest of the charge is accomplished at an ever decreasing charge rate of about 3 amps. It is this acceptance charge that is running your generator. Acceptance runs about 6 hours. So 1 or 2 hours for bulk, and 6 for acceptance. Total 8 hours for full charge.

1 amp hour out you got get one back in, they only go back in at about 80% of what they came out at.

This is a typical problem for people that have house batteries that are trying to charge with a generator. Cummins Onan has a chart that will tell you how long it takes to charge a 50% depleted house battery. This is where you answers lay.

Do a lot of research before you go out and buy into the 6v costco golf cart battery solution, You will be spending money on what you think is a solution but more money down the drain.

While there is debate on 12v vs 6v, there is an analysis that you must do before you decide. The house battery recharge and usage is larger than a couple of costco batts. I promise you.

I will find the Cummins chart for you and provide the link, but just think if you had a small battery bank that was 50% depleted, you would have to drive 600 miles to charge them and you still would not have them charged up. I will get you a few links so you know what to start looking for. The house batteries that you need cannot be bought at Sears, Costco, Napa, WalMart, or AutoZone. Not even interstate battery has them. You need industrial batteries that are designed to be charged and discharged to 50% to 100% on a daily basis, batteries that have an owners manual, that tell you how long and at what voltage and amps to use. Study before you spend another dime. I will also put together some math for you to look at so that you can see what you are up against.
 
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Jim.Allison

Well-known member
Charging times are to reach float rate,

http://www.cumminsonan.com/www/html/Common/pdf/rv/F-1123.pdf

Your progressive charger has a different idea of what is charged. Acceptance occurs before float and takes about 6 hours. Notice that cummins it talking about bringing a battery to 80% charged. You cannot do anything with an 80% charged battery unless you have a heck of a battery bank.

Read this to get a grip on the subject and take it from there. I'm not saying he is right on everything solar but he is close. HE has identified and discussed every subject. You gotta use your own critical thinking skills. The point is if you cant argue with this guy you dont know enough. LOL

http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/t...d-up-so-angry/
 
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Jim.Allison

Well-known member
I dont want to insult anyone, but it is not about 2 6v vs 1 12v, what you choose or how you choose it. Its about amp hours. And in RVs, it about how much those amp hours weigh. My analysis showed that in small systems like you find in fifth wheels that 12v industrial batteries made by Trojan or Continental battery is better than 6v Golf carts. Do not get me wrong there is a point at which the 6v becomes the more preferred components to a solar system. But not in an 5th wheel. It takes 6 of the popular T 105 6v golf cart batteries, outperform 4 of the Trojan T 1275. In the end, it comes down to amp hours, weight, and cost. One thing it for sure, Costco does not publish the amp hours of their batteries, all I can say is that they must not really be in teh battery business, because in order to drive a golf cart or power and RV you need to understand how many amp hours you have available.

You don't say but are you running one 12 volt battery? If so you will never be able to keep enough charge in the battery to power much of anything for any length of time. You will need a minimum of two 6 volt golf batteries if you plan to boon dock for any length of time. I have no problem going 10-14 days on two 6 volts by running the genny about 3 hours in the morning. That is about what it takes for the coffee maker and hair drier to run and that keeps the battery up.

There are several other things that can be done to help and full LED lighting makes a big difference.
 

Lynn1130

Well-known member
Thanks Jim, but the point here was that ONE 12 volt battery will not do it if you are trying to boon dock. Whether he decides to go with 6 or 12 was not the talking point. What was, was the fact that he is under powered if he has only one 12. He does need to research before he makes a change, if he does.

And perhaps you can explain the benefit of the T-1275 over the T-105 other than the backup should one battery fail. From the stats that I see the 1275 has fewer amp hours upon discharge and weighs 20 lbs more per battery.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
4 T105 at 62 lbs for 248 lbs and 450 amp hours
3 T1275 at 82 lbs for 246 lbs at 450 amp hours

1/3 less cables and connections.

It comes to amp hours per pound per $



Thanks Jim, but the point here was that ONE 12 volt battery will not do it if you are trying to boon dock. Whether he decides to go with 6 or 12 was not the talking point. What was, was the fact that he is under powered if he has only one 12. He does need to research before he makes a change, if he does.

And perhaps you can explain the benefit of the T-1275 over the T-105 other than the backup should one battery fail. From the stats that I see the 1275 has fewer amp hours upon discharge and weighs 20 lbs more per battery.
 

Lynn1130

Well-known member
Ok but if you only have room for two I think your numbers don't work well for the 12 volts. I have room for two and it is everything I can do to get two 60 lb batteries lifted into the small battery space next to the generator. 80 lbs each would be impossible and I loose amp hours with the 12s.

And at the risk of beating this horse to death. Cost of 4 T-105s at $148 each $592. Cost of 3 T-1275s at $209 each $627.
 
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porthole

Retired
Lynn - I have a small block and tackle I use to get the batteries in my compartment. Same as yours (2010 3010)

I made lifting cable out of some stainless wire i had, two "S" hooks and some clear tubing. The wire is just long enough to reach the lifting eyes on the batteries.
The block and tackle connect to an eye I attached to one of the cross members over head.
It is not centered over the battery box.

I wrestle the batteries up to the opening then connect the hoist.
I lift the battery up and it swings in. I then grab all the lines with a glove on and squeeze. Slowly relaxing my grab I then guide the battery into the box with the other hand.
Works pretty good and much better then bending over and lifting in that already too small compartment.

Battery hoist
 

brianharrison

Well-known member
hi i have a 2014 261 torque , and i havent been able to charge the battery sufficiently by running the generator. What is the amp output from generator to the battery? dealer says there is an increase in voltage but only slightly. definitely not enough to sustain boondocking for and length of time. i specifically wanted the generator so i could do this type of camping.... at times not enough juice in battery to run jack.... no draw detected...help

Heartland website shows a 55 amp converter (110 to 12V) for the 261 torque. From my research the Progessive Dynamics 55A only comes in the 4600 series (LINK CLICK HERE); there is no 55Amp 9100 or 9200 series. It may be a different manufacturer?

If it is the PD4600 it should put out a max of 55A Direct Current when the generator is providing 950Watts at 120V (~8Amps Alternating Current). You did not say if the generator was providing 120V to other devices in your unit. Does the 120V lights work when the generator is running? Possibly the generator is not providing any 120V power? Is there a breaker switch on the generator itself?

If you confirm the generator is providing 120V, then check the voltage at the battery terminals when it is running - without the intelligent Charge Wizard Pendant from Progressive Dynamics, the voltage should be 13.6V constant.

Hope this helps.
Brian
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
You should be concerned with battery dimensions then. Amp hours is not the consideration. You do not loose amp hours with the 12v. When you connect in series to double voltage the amp hours stay the same. So 2 T105 Trojan CG batts can provided 225 amp hours. When you parallel two 12v T1275 the voltage stays the same and the amp hours double. Soooooo 2 each 6v 225 ah batts = 1 12v 225 ah batt bank. 2 each T1275 12v 150 ah batts = 1 12v 300 ah batt bank. The 2 T1275 provide a full 75 total amp hours more.

You problem is that you only have space, support, and ability to lift x number of amp hours into your compartment. You cannot get more amp hours with less weight and less space. It takes the same cubic feet and pounds for 3 t1275 as it does for 4 T105. If you install 2 t105 you will have 225 amp hours 1/2 of which is usable. So you will be able to run 112.5 amp hours out of those batts connected in series. If you squeeze in 2 T1275 then you will have 150 amp hours available. It may not seem like a lot, but 37.5 amp hours is a lot when your boondocking.

Ok but if you only have room for two I think your numbers don't work well for the 12 volts. I have room for two and it is everything I can do to get two 60 lb batteries lifted into the small battery space next to the generator. 80 lbs each would be impossible and I loose amp hours with the 12s.

And at the risk of beating this horse to death. Cost of 4 T-105s at $148 each $592. Cost of 3 T-1275s at $209 each $627.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
The price is comparable all things considered, those two extra battery cables come at a price, if you are using the proper size wire and lugs. So price is not the consideration. 4 batts compared to 3 is better, but in reality you only need 2 T1275 to run the rig at 300 amp hours. to beat that you have to have 4 of the 6v T105. But of course 4 t105 would provide 450 amp hours.

Ok but if you only have room for two I think your numbers don't work well for the 12 volts. I have room for two and it is everything I can do to get two 60 lb batteries lifted into the small battery space next to the generator. 80 lbs each would be impossible and I loose amp hours with the 12s.

And at the risk of beating this horse to death. Cost of 4 T-105s at $148 each $592. Cost of 3 T-1275s at $209 each $627.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
2 of these 66 lb group 27 12v lithium batts will give 168 usable amp hours in a group 27, neither the 2 T105 or the 2 T1275 can do that and it should meet your weight and space limitation. They charge faster also. If you shop hard enough you might find a single lithium ion battery that will provide a reasonable number of ah to run your rig.

Since you can drain lithium batts to 80% rather that just 50% you can do more with less.

http://www.ervsolar.com/products/full-river-d105-12-deep-cycle-battery-group-27.html
 

branson4020

Icantre Member
2 of these 66 lb group 27 12v lithium batts will give 168 usable amp hours in a group 27, neither the 2 T105 or the 2 T1275 can do that and it should meet your weight and space limitation. They charge faster also. If you shop hard enough you might find a single lithium ion battery that will provide a reasonable number of ah to run your rig.

Since you can drain lithium batts to 80% rather that just 50% you can do more with less.

http://www.ervsolar.com/products/full-river-d105-12-deep-cycle-battery-group-27.html

I think that link is to AGM batteries, not Li batts. Li batts are way,way,way more expensive than that.
 

Lynn1130

Well-known member
Would not matter how expensive until they do more to work out the fire hazard issues with lithium batteries I would not have one where I sleep. I use LiFi and LoPo batteries with radio controlled aircraft and they can be very volatile if not cared for properly. I have also seen the fire that they cause if damaged or improperly charged. I know little about auto type but cannot imagine that they are any safer.
 
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