Lightning Strike

tvermette

Member
First, I recommend a surge protector! I did not have one and am paying the price.

Here is my scenario. Need some advice.

I discovered the issue when I opened the transfer box in the basement. The wire that comes in from the converter was fried (the white common). See attached picture.
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I disconnected all power to the unit, and tested the 12v power. Everything works on 12v fine. Refrigerator, lights, etc.

I ran an extension cord into the unit, and the TV, radio, etc., work ok. Unable to test the air units or the refrigerator until I get the transfer box fixed. The microwave does not work, but am going to check the fuse in the microwave, I think that popped. The other thing that does not appear to work in the central vac. The eureka yellow bee.

So, I put a new PD52 box in yesterday, cleaned up all the wiring, and when I turned on the main power I heard a buzz-fizzle sound from the transfer box. Is that normal on startup for a new box? I immediately killed the power and am going to take it to the dealer.

Forgot to mention this is a 2011 Heartland Augusta.

Looking for any advice on what to check. I am making the assumption that the power cord goes into the converter and that is what feeds the transfer box? Is that accurate? Do you think anything in the unit could be ground out that is causing a problem? I had the main power shut off set to off, but all breakers were still on when I plugged it back in.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-Tom
 

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danemayer

Well-known member
Hi tvermette,

Just to clarify the terminology, your picture is the Automatic Transfer Switch which is completely separate from the Power Converter. You probably know this, but for the benefit of others, the transfer switch takes 110V incoming shore power and 110V incoming generator power and switches between them. The output goes to the circuit breaker panel. The Power Converter is plugged into a 110V AC outlet and converts 110V AC into 12V DC to charge the battery and help power the 12V DC lights, circuit boards and other devices.

Your picture shows heat damage to the output side of the transfer switch, particularly on the neutral line. Hopefully when you replaced the switch, you cut back those wires so you're not using heat damaged wire.

The heat damage suggests high resistance, possibly due to contactor issues on the transfer switch, or perhaps loose wires. To minimize future problems, I'd suggest changing your packup routine to shut off the coach 50 Amp main breakers before shutting off the park pedestal circuit breaker and disconnecting power. When setting up, connect to the pedestal, turn on the pedestal breaker, then turn on the main 50 amp breakers inside the coach. If you're using an EMS to protect the electrical system, and you should, you need to wait 2 minutes before turning on the inside breakers because the EMS has a built-in delay. Same thing when switching from shore power to generator. Do it with breakers off whenever possible.

The reason for doing this is that when you apply power from either shore power or generator, if there is a significant load on the circuit breakers (air conditioners, water heater, fireplace, etc), the contactors inside the transfer switch may have some arcing when they make contact, leading to pitting of the contacts and over time, high resistance.

One thing to be aware of is that the damage to the neutral line coming out of your transfer switch suggests that the neutral may not have been carrying the full return voltage. A partial loss of neutral conductivity can result in abnormally high voltage levels to some of your appliances. That can blow fuses and otherwise cause damage. In some cases, the power supplies may have weakened components, but still work. So the damage can show up as a failure sometime later. If you'd like to read a technical explanation about partial/full loss of neutral, here's a link.

As for the buzz/fizzle sound, if that continues, I would assume there's a problem with the replacement PD52. I had to replace ours and over the next 5 weeks had to replace the PD52 several more times because of various defects.
 

olcoon

Well-known member
Don't want to hijack the thread but, from what I understand from your reply, Dan I'm doing something wrong. I've got the Progressive EMS hard wired, and when on the road, I don't turn off the electric side of the hot water heater. At first I kept forgetting to turn it off, now I just don't worry about it. Should I start turning it off when we hit the road?
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Don't want to hijack the thread but, from what I understand from your reply, Dan I'm doing something wrong. I've got the Progressive EMS hard wired, and when on the road, I don't turn off the electric side of the hot water heater. At first I kept forgetting to turn it off, now I just don't worry about it. Should I start turning it off when we hit the road?

Roy, let me clarify. That advice is only with respect to arcing inside the automatic transfer switch that comes with the onboard Onan generator, or the generator prep option. Turning off the main 50s in your circuit breaker panel is the easiest way to cut all loads.

The transfer switch is designed to automatically transfer, and its documentation doesn't advise cutting loads before plugging and unplugging shore power, but the collective wisdom on this forum is to avoid arcing to prolong the life of the contactors. Enough of us have had failures that are probably related to arcing, that it seems like a good practice.

If you have generator prep or the generator, I'd suggest cutting the breakers. If not, don't worry about it. Just turn off the pedestal breaker before plugging or unplugging the shore power cable.
 

tvermette

Member
Good information friends, thank you.

Further question.....

Is the 50 am breaker in the coach or in the belly pan? I know that I have a fuse box when I walk in the door to the coach, but was not sure if there was another somewhere else?

Is this assumption correct regarding power flow?

1. Your cord that plugs into shore power goes directly to the transfer relay.

2. Assuming you are on shore power, the power then goes into the converter.

3. The converter sends power out to the breakers in the coach.

4. The power goes through the breaker and to the receptical.

What is throwing me off is after I put in the new box and cut the wires back (to remove the burnt wiring and casing) and reconnected all the wires, when we flipped the breaker for shore power, it make that noise and I thinking back, I believe I saw a little puff of white smoke. Can't figure out what else could be wrong? Would that be normal for the initial charge of power going to the box? Would the smoke be normal?
 

cookie

Administrator
Staff member
Well, you got #1 correct.
You need to forget about the converter. You are correct, kinda, in that the TS supplies power to the converter but not in the manner you are thinking.
The converter is a device that is plugged into a receptacle and it in turn converts 120 volts AC to 12 volts DC. It also charges your battery.
So, the power from shore goes to the TS. The power from the generator also goes to the TS.
The power is then directed to your 120 volt service panel where it there is distributed to your receptacles. That's the thing with all the breakers in it, not fuses.
It sounds like you need to check the TS for continuity through the contacts. If the neutral contact is not closing it could lead to a bunch of the problems you have mentioned. You will need to disconnect from shore power and lock out your generator, disconnect one side of the neutral on the contactor. Then using your meter to check the continuity manually engaged the relay.

Peace
Dave
 

danemayer

Well-known member
When I was replacing my transfer switch, I did the following:


  1. Shore power disconnected
    1. Continuity test across the transfer switch wires. With contactor assembly at rest, test shore power inputs to ATS outputs. Also test to make sure generator inputs to ATS outputs are open.
    2. With contactor assembly depressed, test continuity between generator inputs and ATS outputs, and also check that shore power inputs to ATS outputs are open.
  2. Circuit Breaker Panel 50 amp breakers turned OFF, all individual breakers turned OFF
    • Reconnect shore power
    • Test voltage on the shore power inputs. L1 to neutral (120V), L2 to neutral (120V), L1 to L2 (240V).
    • Repeat test on the ATS outputs. Should be the same.
    • Start generator and wait 30 seconds for transfer switch to energize contactors and make clunking noise.
    • Test voltage on generator inputs. L1 to neutral (120V), L2 to neutral (120V), L1 to L2 (240V).
    • Repeat test on the ATS outputs. Should be the same.
    • Turn off generator
  3. 50 Amp breakers ON, All individual circuit breakers turned OFF
    1. Turn on a single circuit breaker. Pick one that powers outlets only.
    2. Check voltage at the outlet. Hot to neutral (120V), Hot to ground (120V), neutral to ground (0 V). The voltage reading should be the same as when you read voltage at the ATS. If neutral to ground reads more than a few tenths of a volt, you need to investigate further why current is leaking.
    3. Start the generator, wait 30 seconds for it to engage, retest the outlet. Should read 120V, 120V, 0V.
  4. 50 Amp breakers ON, All Circuit Breakers Turned OFF.
    1. Turn ON the circuit breaker for a device that uses a lot of power, like a Dryer, or Fireplace, or Water Heater (if the water in it has cooled).
    2. Turn ON the device so there's a load on the electrical system.
    3. Retest voltage at the ATS outputs. Should read the same as before.

A puff of smoke is not good. If unusual noises persist, such as an extended "spring" type of noise, you have a problem.
 

jmgratz

Original Owners Club Member
Correct me if I am wrong. But why the need to turn off the coach main breaker if your hookup steps are:
1. Be certain the pedestal breaker is turned off.
2. Plug in the Progressive Industries EMS to the pedestal
3. Plug in the Coach plug to the Progressive Industries EMS
4. Turn on the pedestal breaker
5. Wait for the EMS to turn on
6. Power is supplied to the coach
7. Turn on the air conditioner or other power switches in the coach

Been doing it this way for years without having to turn the main coach breaker on or off without issues.
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Correct me if I am wrong. But why the need to turn off the coach main breaker if your hookup steps are:
1. Be certain the pedestal breaker is turned off.
2. Plug in the Progressive Industries EMS to the pedestal
3. Plug in the Coach plug to the Progressive Industries EMS
4. Turn on the pedestal breaker
5. Wait for the EMS to turn on
6. Power is supplied to the coach
7. Turn on the air conditioner or other power switches in the coach

Been doing it this way for years without having to turn the main coach breaker on or off without issues.

Jim,

If you have all your loads turned off there's no need.
 

szewczyk_john

Well-known member
My current unit is my first with 50 amp service and also with in on board generator. I have been following jmgratz's procedure when I have shore power with the exception that I do not plug in the power cord to the EMS until I have a good reading. So plug in the EMS and then throw the breakers at the pedestal. Wait until I get a normal reading and then plug in the power cord. I have only used the power cord, 4 times and once was at a 30 amp park so I used my 30 amp power cord instead of the 50 amp one. We do mostly dry camping with the generator. What is the best procedure for hooking up to 50 amp service? and does amperage matter, meaning is it necessary to use the same procedure when only 30 amp service is available?

Secondly both Dane and Porthole(in a Cyclone ATS post) write about having both generator and power cord active and powered up at the same time. I have also read on this forum that you should never have the cord powered with the generator running as it causes damage to the ATS. Does it only damage it if there are loose terminal posts or are we speaking about trying to reduce the arcs?
 

danemayer

Well-known member
I have also read on this forum that you should never have the cord powered with the generator running as it causes damage to the ATS. Does it only damage it if there are loose terminal posts or are we speaking about trying to reduce the arcs?
The switch is designed to automatically transfer back and forth between shore power and generator without any damage. So if local power goes out, you can fire up the generator and it will supply power to the coach. When local power is restored, you can turn off the generator and shore power will flow to the coach. I'm not aware of any need to unplug from shore power while running the generator. The transfer switch is set up so that when both power sources are present, it defaults to the generator.

That said, when loads are present during the time when the contactors inside the switch are actuated, there's the possibility of arcing inside the transfer switch. Some of us believe that over time there may be enough damage to the contactors that the switch will fail.

In my opinion, since the consequences of partial failures of the transfer switch can be severe, it's well worth an extra step to avoid the possibility of gradual damage.
 

tvermette

Member
Another interesting find after the lightning strike. The battery keeps draining and the master power switch is off. Would a short in the converter cause this?
 
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