SOLVED: AC Power Issue with Power Control System

jbeletti

Well-known member
Having trouble keeping AC power tonight within the coach. Capturing notes/thoughts here so I remember them in the morning and to add the solution once I figure it out tomorrow :)

Had no hot water this morning. Traced to a tripped AC breaker for that circuit. Reset breaker - all was well. Tonight, fireplace shut off. Traced to tripped AC breaker for that circuit. Reset breaker, it held for a few seconds and tripped again. Reset it again and the main 50 amp breaker in the AC panel tripped.

Looked at PCS (power control system) panel and it showed good AC power on both legs with 7 loads shed. There are 7 AC using items that are controllable by the PCS - so all were shed.

Looking closer at the PCS panel, it was showing 0 amps on L1 and 106 amps on L2 and 106 amps total. Huh? How can it allow 106 amps to be drawn on a 50 amp circuit?

Reset 50 amp breaker and power came back on to all non-PCS controlled circuits. PCS tried to unshed the shed loads and they re-shed with some buzzing behind the AC panel.

Now PCS panel read NO POWER - meaning no incoming AC power. I thought I had a glitch in the PCS with the 106 amp reading and now reading NO POWER to the panel. I went outside and shut-off the 50 amp receptacle breaker, waited, then turned it back on. I heard the ATS (automatic transfer switch) clunk like it switched over to shore power. Came back inside, still reads NO POWER.

At this point, I'm now thinking I have an issue at the ATS. For safety, I'm unplugging the coach for the evening. We'll use DC lighting and the propane furnace and I will tackle this tomorrow and report back. If it's the ATS, I could be unwiring it from the circuit and splicing the mains feed to the AC panel feed until I get a replacement ATS.

Up to this point there's been no other issue with the PCS or ATS, so who knows...
 

Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

WOW Jim that's a new one. What did you have on when it read 106 amps ? I would assume you had everything off by then. STRANGE !!!!
 

cookie

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Be certain to check your neutral connections.
The fact that the individual circuit breakers tripped and they are after your PCS in my opinion makes the neutral a prime suspect.
Use your meter and check voltage at your breaker panel.

Peace
Dave
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

x2 on neutral. If neutral is partially open, you'll probably get odd voltage readings checking HOT to NEUTRAL and comparing to HOT to GROUND. Prime suspects are pedestal, ATS, wires coming into the circuit breaker panel/PCS.
 

pegmikef

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

My loose neutral problem was on the circuit breaker neutral bus. Happened over a period of months and slowly deteriorated until it finally started exhibiting symptoms and even then it seemed pretty tight, but was actually loose enough to arc.
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Semi-primitive this morning. Coffee made on the patio with an extension cord to the pedestal.
Oatmeal made in a pan on a butane burner.

IMG_4809.jpg IMG_4810.jpg

Turned on the 50 amp breaker at the pedestal this morning. Came inside and the PCS read No Power. Turned on the 50 amp breaker in the panel and power restored to the PCS. So that's a learning.

One at a time, I turned on each breaker in the panel and monitored the PCS panel. Seemed like every circuit that had a load on, sent the display haywire with current. I thought the microwave would be okay to nuke breakfast as its display panel seemed to stay on. As soon as I started using it to microwave, the load was shed. Same with the dishwasher - it had power to it but as soon as I began the wash cycle - the load was shed.

I looked at all the breakers to determine any pattern (L1 vs L2) but no pattern emerged. The only constant is all the high-current readings on the PCS display occur on L2.

Last odd thing - right before I shut the 50 amp panel breaker off this morning, the PCS display started flashing BROWN OUT showing 0 volts on L1.

In a bit, when I start tearing into this, I'll unplug the RV from shore power (leaving it that way) and test voltage at the 50 amp receptacle to ensure all is well there from L1 to G/N, L2 to G/N and L1 to L2. Then I'll head behind the wall and pull the lid off the ATS and check each conductor to ensure they are secure and no evidence of high-current (burning smell, melted insulation etc.). If all seems good there, I'll repower at the pedestal and check voltage at the ATS contactor outputs.
IMG_4808.jpg
 

Bohemian

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Check the incoming power phases. There should be 240 between L1 and L2. If there is 0V between L1 and L2 then the wiring is wrong. If L1 and L2 are the same phase then 50A on L1 and 50A on L2 makes 100A on the neutral. Properly wired (out of phase) neutral would be the difference in current between L1 and L2. In properly wired they neutral sees the sum of L1 and L2.
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Update for 1:00 PM

Did more testing with a couple of the guys here at the rally.

Shore power voltage is good. Test results were as expected. Tested voltage at input to ATS and also tested good. Same at output of ATS. Good as is 110 VAC from L1 to Ground and Neutral, 110 VAC from L2 to Ground/Neutral and 220 VAC from L1 to L2.

Now - twice, when restoring AC power at the pedestal, we got contactor chatter. Tried the gen, no chatter. Later, tried shore power and no chatter. Seems like we have a discontinuity somewhere. Maybe in the shoreline reel or at the shoreline reel to coach cord or maybe in the contactor.

That said, there are some conclusive results. We have power issues on only 1 leg (L2). That is, every other dual breaker will draw super-high current when on and a load put on it. The PCS display reads over 110 amps on L2 when any breaker on that leg is activated and loaded. The PCS then starts to shed all 7 controllable circuits.

Super odd one here... When we run the gen, L2 reads 110 VAC and x amps and L1 reads 0 VAC and maybe 1 amp. We can run an air conditioner and see about 12 amps on L1 and IT STILL SHOWS 0 VAC. Crazy. When we turn on the microwave circuit, L1 show 110 VAC. Bizarre. This could all be a PCS issue and you can't jump that out of the circuits easily :(

We are trying 2 things this afternoon, then a possible 3rd.
1. Replace 50 amp breaker in AC breaker panel
2. If 1 is ineffective, we'll jump around the ATS
3. If 1 and 2 are ineffective, we may check the AC power connection at the shoreline reel and maybe jump around that

By the way, we have confirmed that all screws are tight on all breakers, neutrals and grounds in the ATS and the breaker panel.

Still working on this... :)
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Jim,

I think the PCS may have a "Limp Home" mode that kicks in if the controller and monitor fail to communicate. If you pull the display panel off the wall, I think you may find a 12V DC power connection and a RJ phone connector for a data port. I'm guessing you can simulate a communication error by pulling the data connector. If I understand it correctly, that will disable the PCS controller and let power flow as if you had no PCS device.
 

jmgratz

Original Owners Club Member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

I am wondering if there is an issue with the controller. Just a thought
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Update for 5:00 pm

Dan - Limp Mode - that would be nice to figure out for the future, but I'm too tired now. Been at it all day. Lyle Mercer, Duane Clause and Lou Dick helped me noodle this one all day too.

We did find that the CG 50 amp pedestal breaker had some mechanical issues and at the end of the day, had the CG replace with new. No real change. During our testing, we would trip the pedestal breaker but the handle would remain locked in the up position. Then you could jiggle the handle and cycle the power. Not good. Duane is wondering if that caused an issue with the PCS.

During testing, we also had serious issues with the WH (water heater) circuit. When we powered that circuit up, it would trip it's breaker in the panel AND the 50 amp mains breaker in the panel. We tried it with the WH switch off (outside) in order to isolate the heating element and it still snapped the breakers - as if it were a wiring issue before the WH. We've left that breaker off for now.

We continued to have current readings over 100 amps on L2. Duane had an amp clamp meter and we used it at the same time we'd get the 100+ amp current draws and his meter read what we'd expect it to, based on the load we were activting. So why the PCS was reading so far off like that - we do not know. We do know that it would shed all 7 loads when it read this phantom 100+ amp load. Duane's guess is that one of the current sensors (L2) in the PCS is defective.

I bought everything needed to jump the ATS but turns out none of us now believe that's the issue. But now I have that in my rolling stock if needed.

I also bought a battery charger so I could put some power back into my batteries while we worked, as they'd been in use since 10:30 last night. And while they were still putting out enough power to run the inverter for the refer, we we're getting down to the 1/3 remaining mark by 1 pm. I'll carry this battery charger in the RV all the time now. If I or any of my RV pals need to use it - I'll have it.

We're limping by for tonight. We'll see what happens tomorrow afternoon when I plug the RV in at home. I'll also call Precision Circuits to chat with them and get ideas. Oh - there is a flashing read light on the circuit board to the left of the AC breaker panel housing. I'm sure it means something bad. Precision should be able to guide me on that.
 

Mrsfish

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Wow- when something like this happens to me, I'm clueless. To see it happen to a very savvy landmark owner is educational. Thank you, Dan, Terry, Jim, Jesse for taking the time to post this. We will all learn from it- even if the lesson is that stuff happens to everyone at some point or another. Good luck
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Went out to dinner and a movie tonight and the coach was still alive when we got back :)

We have AC items in use and here's what we are seeing on the PCS display:
FullSizeRender 47.jpg
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Wow- when something like this happens to me, I'm clueless. To see it happen to a very savvy landmark owner is educational. Thank you, Dan, Terry, Jim, Jesse for taking the time to post this. We will all learn from it- even if the lesson is that stuff happens to everyone at some point or another. Good luck

I'd rather have this happen to me than to another Heartlander. I will learn from this and I will be in a better position to assist others.
 

Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Jim you have one heck of a puzzler there. We are at the edge of our seats waiting for you guys to figure it out. Wish I was there to help.
Don't you have a Progressive surge protector in your system to ??? I was thinking you did

Sent from Jerrod's phone with Tape talk
 

Bones

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

I read two things that should be checked if possible. You said that your main 50 amp tripped. That takes a very big short to do that. Has the electrical panel been checked to make sure a breaker is not causing a direct sort? Is the water heater hooked up to the PCS? If so you could have a bad PCS causing all of your issues. I would assume that with the higher end PCS that the current pickups are located inside the unit somehow and if they go bad then it may need replacing. Before you hook up the water heater again. Can you disconnect all the power lines going to it and test the supply lines for a short. Another thought is to make sure your frame has not been somehow energized by a cut in a wire. You may want to check to see if you have a short to the frame before you even move the coach so the problem is still there. I think you may be able to accomplished this by disconnecting all ac power and running your meter from your electrical box main lines to the frame and see if you get contact. Make sure you test the common wire and frame too not just the hots. You may have already done this. Hopefully you get it resolved and it is not too cold there. Hopefully my logic is not whacked out with the frame testing for a short or contact with a line.
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue

Update for 19-Oct @ 9 am

I spoke to George at Precision Circuits. Real nice guy. I barely got into my story and he told me I could stop - he knew what the issue was. He believes that their 'current sensor' has been blown by a dead short on one of my branch circuits. His theory makes sense to us as we measured accurate, expected current loads (amp clamp) when the PCS display read 100+ amps, then shed all 7 controllable loads.

I believe the dead short branch circuit is the WH. My "theory / guess" is that perhaps a wire nut has come off inside a metallic junction box on the WH and is shorted to the box - thus, dead short. I will tackle this first when we get home.

Heartland has ordered a replacement PCS control board from Precision Circuits to be drop-shipped to my home for self-install.

Incidentally, George told me the slow "heart-beat" like red LED on their control board is a good sign whereas a fast flashing red LED is a bad sign. So, while the control board is functioning, the connected "current cups" are blown and are giving the PCS false readings.
 
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