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Dustin.Whiteley
07-13-2016, 06:24 PM
I recently spent the night in a Camp Ground located in Amarillo Texas. I have a hard wired Surge Guard protector installed. After plugging in for the night. We went to sleep and woke up at with no AC power. I couldn't find any external issues the power was coming in from the post like normal. So we packed up and went on to our destination in Colorado. After numerous calls to mobile repair technicians and no RV repair locations open for another 3 days. I pulled off the wall in the basement and found the junction box. The wires coming in from the post were burnt to a crisp. I replaced all the wires after a trip to Home Depot. Then my surge protector came back on with no issues. My wife remembers hearing the guys at the RV park in Amarillo saying that the box kept tripping. I'm not sure what happened. Would you all recommend I get a portable surge protector also to plug into the post?

jimtoo
07-13-2016, 06:45 PM
Hi Dustin.Whitely,

Welcome to the Heartland Owners Forum and to the family. We have a great bunch of folks here with lots of information and all willing to share their knowledge when needed.

I'm sure you will get lots of suggestions and opinions about surge protectors. Were the burned wires hooked directly to the surge protector or where? Maybe a little better description of where the burned wires were.

Be sure and check out our Heartland Owners Club (http://heartlandowners.org/content.php/128-heartland-owners-club-portal). Join us at a rally when you can and meet lots of the great folks here and make friends for a lifetime.

Enjoy the forum.

Jim M

Jim.Allison
07-13-2016, 09:20 PM
If it aint broke (now) don't fix it. My question is, why the pedestal breakers did not throw? Or did they?

Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn
07-13-2016, 10:18 PM
Could possibly just be from loose connections in box at the burnt wires. Did you notice if the wire jam screws were loose when you replaced the wires ?

mlpeloquin
07-13-2016, 10:27 PM
Loose connections will create a high resistance and act like a heating element. Once a year I now check all main power connections including the ones in my internally installed Progressive and breaker box.

Dustin.Whiteley
07-14-2016, 05:56 AM
If it aint broke (now) don't fix it. My question is, why the pedestal breakers did not throw? Or did they?

The pedestal did not trip. It was still on when I checked it.

Dustin.Whiteley
07-14-2016, 05:57 AM
I think I will do the same from now on.

Dustin.Whiteley
07-14-2016, 05:58 AM
I couldn't tell if they were loose. They were all burned when I found the box.

JohnD
07-14-2016, 08:10 AM
Would you all recommend I get a portable surge protector also to plug into the post?

I would say . . . why not?

Can't hurt to have double protection.

Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn
07-14-2016, 08:10 AM
My guess is a loose connection there. Causing them to heat up and melt. They did not short out so breaker will not trip. The voltage loss there from the burn wire and loose connection caused the surge protector tho cut power. Code E4 or E6
And I don't think a surge protector at the pedestal would have caught that either.
Just my unprofessional guess

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macjj
07-14-2016, 11:35 AM
Looks like your question was answered, but to reiterate -- heat is caused by
1 resistance (loose wires) which may not trip a breaker, but will burn the insulation
2 too much current draw. Breakers are designed to protect the "wire" not the circuit. Draw too much current (short or not), the breaker trips before the wire burns. Aka, old house fuses were circumvented with a penny, and the house would burn, because the wire could not handle the current draw.

BTW you were lucky, many have burned due to missing the 1st condition. With a moving vehicle it is always a good idea to check (with the power disconnected) before every long trip


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JohnD
07-14-2016, 11:49 AM
Looks like your question was answered, but to reiterate -- heat is caused by
1 resistance (loose wires) which may not trip a breaker, but will burn the insulation
2 too much current draw. Breakers are designed to protect the "wire" not the circuit. Draw too much current (short or not), the breaker trips before the wire burns. Aka, old house fuses were circumvented with a penny, and the house would burn, because the wire could not handle the current draw.

BTW you were lucky, many have burned due to missing the 1st condition. With a moving vehicle it is always a good idea to check (with the power disconnected) before every long trip


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You left one out . . .

No matter how much protection you have inside . . . a surge protector outside will double your chances of stopping a power issue from causing you a bad weekend!

macjj
07-14-2016, 02:36 PM
Concur


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wdk450
07-15-2016, 03:20 AM
You left one out . . .

No matter how much protection you have inside . . . a surge protector outside will double your chances of stopping a power issue from causing you a bad weekend!

I was at a campground last summer with 115 volt, 30 amp service. During my stay, they had neutral bonding issues at the transformer feeding our sites. My built-in Progressive EMS cut out the power. Incoming power measured 240 volts to ground on the neutral and 120 volts to ground on the hot, making the EMS think that the incoming voltage polarity was reversed. The same voltages were observed on all other RV space outlets tested. NONE OF THE OTHER RIGS AROUND ME WITH EXTERNAL PROTECTORS NOTICED ANYTHING AND KEPT USING THE BAD POWER.
The electric utility people came out and did repairs within the park on the bad neutral-ground connection, and all was well.

SNOKING
07-15-2016, 08:47 AM
You left one out . . .

No matter how much protection you have inside . . . a surge protector outside will double your chances of stopping a power issue from causing you a bad weekend!

Could you please explain what the second surge protector outside is going to provide that a hardwired one might miss, as I am having difficulty understanding that. I can understand a hardwired one catching things that the outside one does not, however the other ways around??? Chris

mlpeloquin
07-15-2016, 10:52 AM
The external protector will add an additional voltage surge protection. Lightning or a power pole being hit by a car etc.. Other than that it cannot protect against an open neutral from the power pole to your breaker box. I had first purchased an external one and was happy until I had a loose neutral. Thankfully I was drawing power almost equally. The circuit breakers popped twice in the desert at 108 degrees at the power pole. When I got home I opened everything up and found the loose neutral and one loose hot lead in the power reel. I then ordered a Progressive 50 amp unit and installed it. I use both because I have them, but really only need the Progressive.

SNOKING
07-15-2016, 12:25 PM
I had first purchased an external one and was happy until I had a loose neutral.

That is something everyone with 50Amp service needs to understand, you want the protection as close to the trailer's breaker panel as possible. If you have a transfer switch it should go between the transfer switch and the breaker panel.

If you are buy one, buy the hardwired one for max protection on a 50Amp trailer. That is what I purchased and see no reason to spend the money for a second one at the power pole. Chris

Chris

avvidclif
07-15-2016, 02:28 PM
That is something everyone with 50Amp service needs to understand, you want the protection as close to the trailer's breaker panel as possible. If you have a transfer switch it should go between the transfer switch and the breaker panel.

If you are buy one, buy the hardwired one for max protection on a 50Amp trailer. That is what I purchased and see no reason to spend the money for a second one at the power pole. Chris

Chris

Progressive Industries recommends before the transfer switch. I thought like you did but I followed their recommendation. Their reasoning was the generator already has a protection circuit.

SNOKING
07-15-2016, 02:36 PM
Progressive Industries recommends before the transfer switch. I thought like you did but I followed their recommendation. Their reasoning was the generator already has a protection circuit.

Yes, except the transfer switch is an additional point of failure for a lost neutral!!!!! So their logic is short sighted and wrong! Chris

mlpeloquin
07-15-2016, 07:27 PM
Correct after the transfer switch. Too many failures inside the transfer switch. Don't have the have a generator. The connections can loosen and the contacts can oxidize causing an open circuit. The switch needs to be used with at least a small load to have an arc to keep the contacts clean. Same with a DC contactors which RV users don't need to worry about. Switch them without a load a few times and you will have to replace them. Don't ask why I know this. If you are not getting a generator, don't get the generator prep to avoid the problem.

wdk450
07-16-2016, 12:57 AM
Correct after the transfer switch. Too many failures inside the transfer switch. Don't have the have a generator. The connections can loosen and the contacts can oxidize causing an open circuit. The switch needs to be used with at least a small load to have an arc to keep the contacts clean. Same with a DC contactors which RV users don't need to worry about. Switch them without a load a few times and you will have to replace them. Don't ask why I know this. If you are not getting a generator, don't get the generator prep to avoid the problem.

I have a pure sine wave inverter system instead of a generator. Progressive says not to run inverter power through EMS. So my EMS is shore power only, pre-transfer switch. When I had the EMS open to switch out the p.c. logic board (with Progressive's permission/help) a couple of years ago, I took the opportunity to treat the high current contacts with Caig Cramolyn DeOxit electrical contact cleaner/restorer. I did the same for the transfer switch high current contacts while I was in the crawl space.
I switch my power sources with no load when connecting/disconnecting shore power by switching off the mains inside breakers before disconnecting/connecting shore power. This makes any load arcing happen on the circuit breaker contacts. The circuit breakers are easily accessible, and readily available at home improvement stores. I even have a new spare mains breaker in my spare parts supply.
In my career as a hospital electronics tech,I have never heard of relay contacts being affected by switching no loads. I can think of very low current communications relays that switched hundreds of times a minute (low current teletype circuits from my Navy days) that worked for years on end without failure. I compare that to a bunch of EKG carts throughout the hospital that had 2 - 12 volt batteries that were charged in parallel when the cart was plugged in, and powered the carts in series when the carts were unplugged, a high current relay providing the necessary circuit switching. After a year or two of use, these carts ALL had these relays failing at the contacts. Many times when I didn't have a new relay in stock, I would open up the relay, file the contacts, and spray them with DeOxIt spray and they would work for another year.

Silverado23
07-18-2016, 03:57 PM
I have a pure sine wave inverter system instead of a generator. Progressive says not to run inverter power through EMS. So my EMS is shore power only, pre-transfer switch.

I wonder what the difference is between a pure sine wave inverter and the output of generators? Isn't the popular Honda generator considered an inverter type generator?