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CoChris
04-19-2017, 08:50 PM
I did not see this specific information, so thought I would post the particulars for my truck. If there is an existing thread that this would fit in please let me know.

I just took delivery of my new truck (description below). Love it, but it is like driving a smart phone. More bells, whistles and features then I know what to do with, but I am sure have fun learning http://www.heartlandowners.org/forum/images/smilies/smile.png. These new trucks are incredible (and a big step up in capability and price from my ’95 1 ton).

One thing I had issues with (and neither dealer nor Ford could tell me specifics) was the actual weight and payload. They could only tell me the max possible payload (across all combinations (for a F-350 SRW that is 4,400#), not what my configuration would allow. So to try and help out someone else looking for this information, here are the details on my truck as delivered. Straight off of the dealer’s lot and onto a commercial scale. I will try to answer any questions you have. Good luck and I hope this helps someone else.

2017 Ford F-350 Lariat, Diesel, Long bed, Crew Cab, SRW, 4x4, spray in bed liner, no sun roof
With a full load of fuel and DEF (as delivered from the dealer J), without driver or any additional “stuff”

..............Weights across scale: .......................Axle and total weight ratings
.................................................. ........(from vehicle specific door sticker)
Front axle ...... 4,825# ................................. 5,990#
Rear Axle ....... 3,270# ................................. 7,230#
Total truck ..... 8,105# (10# higher than sum of axles) . 11,500#

Note: Tires are LT275/70x18 Load range E rated at 3,640# max at 80 PSI (max per axle of 7,280#, single rear wheels SRW)

Payload (from door sticker) 3,253#
Payload (max calculated) .. 3,245# (11,500 (GVWR) -8,105 (truck) -150 (driver – I wish!)
........................... Ford (standard?) uses 150# for driver weight, not part of “payload”
Rear axle payload available 3,960# (7,230# - 3,270#) Note: This would put vehicle OVER the GVWR of 11,500#

Sorry about the periods, I could not get the spacing to work the way I wanted it to.

Hopefully this helps others
Happy motoring

CDN
04-19-2017, 09:40 PM
Thank you for this.

My F350 SRW 2016 Lariat FX4 short bed has CCC of 3550 lbs so this boxed frame on the 2017 does add some weight. Good figures to know. Dropping the FX 4 i would have another 80lbs payload.

ronaldc
04-20-2017, 07:43 PM
Thank you so much for posting this information. I was confused about whether the yellow payload sticker included the driver or not. Now I know for sure.

Safe travels,

Ron

JoeAndJustine
04-22-2017, 02:08 PM
Thanks for the info. Just curious....was payload a consideration in choosing the 8' bed? From what I've read the payload is a little higher with the 6.5' bed.

We're at a new one for next year, so trying to do a lot of homework before then.

Thanks!

CoChris
04-22-2017, 06:44 PM
Thanks for the info. Just curious....was payload a consideration in choosing the 8' bed? From what I've read the payload is a little higher with the 6.5' bed.

We're at a new one for next year, so trying to do a lot of homework before then.

Thanks!

I was having a hard time finding detailed and accurate information when I purchased my truck. That is why I posted the above info, hopefully to help others make an informed decision. I hope others will feel free to add their specific information. Ford's technical specifications (at least in the brochure I have - see table below) show's the "maximum payload" to be lower for a short bed vs a long bed for the same GVWR truck. I found it interesting that the max payload for a 4 wheel drive is higher than for a 2 wheel drive, even though I am sure the vehicle weight is heavier (should give lower payload for the same GVWR).

For an F-350, SRW 4x4 with a GVWR of 11,500# they list max (in some configuration) payload as;

Crew Cab
Short bed 3,930#
Long bed 4,440#

Super Cab
Short bed 4,100#
Long bed 4,710#

Note: These a max possible payload ratings. The weight of options (like extra insulation in a Lariat, diesel engine vs gas, etc.) will lower these numbers.
You would have to go look at the (yellow) payload sticker on actual trucks to figure out what the real payload difference (if any) would be. Payload will be

Max payload = GVWR - Vehicle weight (full of all fluids, including fuel) - 150# (driver)
The real trick is finding out what YOUR specific vehicle will weigh as you have optioned/built it.

Also, some of these numbers are for legal reasons (lower road tax/registration fess, license requirements, etc.) and some are physical limitations (lighter weight spring packs, heavier options, lower tire capacity, etc). However, my understanding is the weight limits on the trucks stickers (on drivers side door frame) are legal limits. Whether they are every checked, let along enforced is a whole different topic.

All that being said, I personally never really considered a short bed. I use the truck for a lot more than pulling a 5r and want/need the extra bed length.

- - - Updated - - -

I tried to paste a picture of the 2017 Ford payload table, but could not get it to work.
I found the table in the general 2017 Ford Super Duty sales brochure on their website.

They also have a separate "Trailer Towing Selector" brochure. r5 (release 5?) dated Mar 3 on the fleet.ford site (http://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/) is the most recent one I know of. I just saw they have a towing guide for the 2018 listed. I will have to go look at it, well, maybe I should not. :p

CoChris
04-22-2017, 06:58 PM
Well, I looked (at the 2018 Tow Selector Guide). :rolleyes: Some very general towing information, but it is really just for the 2018 Transit Connect. Nothing about any of the 2018 pickups.

DW_Gray
04-23-2017, 12:59 AM
Actually, SAE J2807 stipulates the tow weight rating with a driver and passenger both weighing 150 pounds.


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CoChris
04-23-2017, 08:39 AM
Actually, SAE J2807 stipulates the tow weight rating with a driver and passenger both weighing 150 pounds.


Thank you for the update. Now I know it is part of the SAE standard and includes both a a driver AND passenger. Does this apply to the payload rating also? Or just the towing calculations.

DW_Gray
04-23-2017, 02:27 PM
Thank you for the update. Now I know it is part of the SAE standard and includes both a a driver AND passenger. Does this apply to the payload rating also? Or just the towing calculations.

J2807 does not cover payload requirements. J2807 "defines procedures and requirements to determine Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) and calculate corresponding Trailer Weight Rating (TWR) for any tow-vehicle."

Ram and Chevrolet do the best job at calculating payload. For that matter, Ram has consistently provided the best charts for need-to-know data, and they provide excellent descriptions and methodology. The standard manufacturer calculation for payload is GVWR-Curb Weight=Payload.

Ford, on the other hand, I've had to tackle each year to put together RVTC charts for my website. Ford did make some improvements online starting for the 2017 models. However, their calculations for payload don't add up and their PDF charts are different than what is online at their website. It is my opinion that buying a Ford is a crapshoot when it comes to interpreting their towing guides.

The end-user calculation for payload is GVWR-GVW=Payload

JoeAndJustine
04-24-2017, 10:44 AM
Thanks for the info Chris and Dave. This really helps. I know its kind of tough for the manufacturers to come up with specific information with options effecting the net payload, but you guys have me in the right direction.

Happy Campin' and thanks again,
Joe.:cool:

CoChris
04-25-2017, 10:54 PM
Joe, you are very welcome. I have learned so much from this site and am happy to try and give something back.

TerryZechman
05-02-2017, 08:06 AM
Thanks for the info Chris.

Do you have any problems with bed height and leveling your trailer?

Does the raised bed rails in the 2017 create any clearance issues with the front of the 5er?

Did you get the 5th wheel prep package?

CoChris
05-08-2017, 11:43 AM
Thanks for the info Chris.

Do you have any problems with bed height and leveling your trailer?

Does the raised bed rails in the 2017 create any clearance issues with the front of the 5er?

Did you get the 5th wheel prep package?

I do not have a 5r (yet :rolleyes:) so can not answer about clearance. I am surprised at the amount of rake (tilt from front to back) in the truck when it is unloaded. The rail height is two inches taller in the rear (tailgate) then the front (behind cab) of the bed unloaded. I suspect the rear will "squat" a fiar amount 3~4 inches? when loaded with a 5r.

Yes, I do have the factory 5th wheel prep package. My weights were without a 5th wheel hitch.

jleavitt11
05-08-2017, 01:39 PM
Thanks for the info Chris.

Do you have any problems with bed height and leveling your trailer?

Does the raised bed rails in the 2017 create any clearance issues with the front of the 5er?

Did you get the 5th wheel prep package?


Just some information. I have a new 2017 F350 also and am towing a Cyclone 4250 with an Anderson Ultimate Hitch. I have had no problems with the extra height of the bed rails. I run the hitch on the lowest of the 3 settings to keep the trailer level and still have plenty of clearance.

CoChris
05-08-2017, 02:18 PM
Just some information. I have a new 2017 F350 also and am towing a Cyclone 4250 with an Anderson Ultimate Hitch. I have had no problems with the extra height of the bed rails. I run the hitch on the lowest of the 3 settings to keep the trailer level and still have plenty of clearance.

Jeff, Thank you for the information. I was wondering about clearance myself. I see from your sig that you have a SRW 2017 F-350 also. Did you try towing (or hooking up) with out the air bags? Do you have any idea how much the truck squats when you hook up? Do you know what your pin weight is? and lastly, how much air pressure are you running in the air bags? Sorry for all the questions. I am trying something very different for me. I am try to learn BEFORE I make the mistake :confused:

jleavitt11
05-08-2017, 02:48 PM
Jeff, Thank you for the information. I was wondering about clearance myself. I see from your sig that you have a SRW 2017 F-350 also. Did you try towing (or hooking up) with out the air bags? Do you have any idea how much the truck squats when you hook up? Do you know what your pin weight is? and lastly, how much air pressure are you running in the air bags? Sorry for all the questions. I am trying something very different for me. I am try to learn BEFORE I make the mistake :confused:


Yes I did hook up and tow the trailer without the air bags. It sat down until it just touched the overload springs about 4". The pin weight is about 3770. Sorry on the air bag pressure. The system I have is automatic system ( Air Lift ) When I load the trailer it inflates the bags until the truck is back to stock level. Then deflates when I unhook it.There is no gauge. I hope this helps.

CoChris
05-08-2017, 03:09 PM
Yes I did hook up and tow the trailer without the air bags. It sat down until it just touched the overload springs about 4". The pin weight is about 3770. Sorry on the air bag pressure. The system I have is automatic system ( Air Lift ) When I load the trailer it inflates the bags until the truck is back to stock level. Then deflates when I unhook it.There is no gauge. I hope this helps.

Again, thank you so much for the information. Air bags are my back up plan. Sounds like you have a nice system. One more thing to look into :)

EWG
05-09-2017, 07:00 PM
Maximum Payload information is on the door label. The label with the tire on it. Just above the tire pressure numbers is what the truck payload is. It says "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed" (Your truck numbers).

fastcarsspeed
05-09-2017, 09:21 PM
I am new to the forum but wanted to provide a little information. I have a 2011 F350 SRW Lariat Long Bed 6.7. I am not fully deleted which saved some weight but I have been across the scales and I am right around 8100#. I will be pulling a 2014 Cyclone 4100 HD here in a couple days so we shall see how she tows being a SRW. The rv will be empty so I should be fine weight wise. I have been looking at firestone airbags to help it but I have had a 2008 Coachmen Chapparal that was in the 13k range and she sat very evenly since I do not have a leveling kit on her.

Max Payload and Pin Weight is so goofy from the manufacturers.

tmleue
07-29-2017, 03:22 AM
Just some information. I have a new 2017 F350 also and am towing a Cyclone 4250 with an Anderson Ultimate Hitch. I have had no problems with the extra height of the bed rails. I run the hitch on the lowest of the 3 settings to keep the trailer level and still have plenty of clearance.

Is your truck a Super duty with the FX4 by chance, Im looking at purchasing the new 2017 F350 Super Duty Diesel with the FX4 package and the new truck sits about 4 inches higher than my current F250. My concern is the clearance of the sidewalls with my 2011 Keystone Cougar which is the smaller 1/2 Ton series trailer going to be a problem. Somebody out there please help.

JohnD
07-29-2017, 08:19 AM
Actually, SAE J2807 stipulates the tow weight rating with a driver and passenger both weighing 150 pounds.

Of course, any of us over 45 years old needs to add at least 25-50 pounds to that figure . . . :rolleyes:

Geodude
07-29-2017, 01:15 PM
Interesting thread. We've been shopping for a replacement for our 2011 F-350 Lariat 4WD short box crew cab. Payload 3513 lbs. We'd like more headroom on the payload and GVWR as we're pretty much at the limit (but good on the axle ratings). Our first stop was the Ford dealer and we were surprised how payloads on the new trucks seem to have dropped. I can't get a Ford dually because with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs there is no personal-use exemption in Ontario, full commercial only and therefore would need to get a different licence and be subject to trip logs, daily inspections, etc. Yeah, I don't think so.

Ram has the best payload and GVWR numbers of all the SRW trucks, but my head touches the ceiling unless I get a bare bones truck with manual, cloth seats. That leaves GM. Their duallies have a GVWR of 13,025 pounds so I'd get the personal-use exemption in Ontario and would have lots of space on the both payload and GVWR.

I sure wish Ford had a GVWR de-rating option on the dually, as we've been really happy with our current Ford. But in the absence of that we see a GM DRW in our future.

tmleue
07-30-2017, 09:07 PM
Again, thank you so much for the information. Air bags are my back up plan. Sounds like you have a nice system. One more thing to look into :)


Is your truck a Super duty with the FX4 by chance, Im looking at purchasing the new 2017 F350 Super Duty Diesel with the FX4 package and the new truck sits about 4 inches higher than my current F250. My concern is the clearance of the sidewalls with my 2011 Keystone Cougar which is the smaller 1/2 Ton series trailer going to be a problem. Somebody out there please help.Thank You for your input and help, I took a leap of faith and will be picking up my New F350SD tomorrow, Darn excited about it. Thanks again.

dave10a
07-31-2017, 09:19 AM
I can remember when the owners manuals were thin and easy to comprehend. Now days the owners manuals consist of a library of information. The 2017 Ford is top of its class and I wonder how long they will be able to keep that title :-) BTY I am not a brand loyalist, but simply an engineer and member of SAE. http://www.sae.org/

porthole
07-31-2017, 09:57 AM
Thank you for the update. Now I know it is part of the SAE standard and includes both a a driver AND passenger. Does this apply to the payload rating also? Or just the towing calculations.


The Max Math (copied from Truck trend)
Once testing has been completed and a truck model meets all of the criteria, the basic calculation for the SAE maximum Tow Weight Rating is: TWR = GCWR TVTW. By subtracting the total weight of the tow vehicle (the TVTW includes the weight of the driver, passenger, and additional equipment) from the tested GCWR, the result is the SAE J2807-compliant Tow Weight Rating.

Looking at the 2017 Ford towing guide the J2087 standard is calculated with a Ford twist - driver only.

Maximum Loaded Trailer Towing Weight Ratings (lbs.) SAE J2807 Compliant
Maximum capabilities shown are for properly equipped vehicles with required equipment and a 150-lb. driver. Weight of additional options, equipment, passengers and cargo must be deducted from this weight.




I was having a hard time finding detailed and accurate information when I purchased my truck.

They also have a separate "Trailer Towing Selector" brochure. r5 (release 5?) dated Mar 3 on the fleet.ford site (http://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/) is the most recent one I know of.




Ford has at least 4 guides to help confuse you.

2017 Ford Super Duty Brochure (http://www.ford.com/services/assets/Brochure?bodystyle=Truck&make=Ford&model=SuperDuty&year=2017)

2017 Ford Super Duty Pickup Trailer Towing Selector (http://www.ford.com/services/assets/Brochure?bodystyle=Truck&make=Ford&model=SuperDuty&year=2017)

2017 Ford Super Duty specifications (http://assets.forddirect.fordvehicles.com/assets/2017_Ford_SuperDuty_J1/NGBS/Nameplate_SpecificationLiteDoc/Nameplate_SpecificationLiteDoc_136B520A-203E-A5E4-DD7D-92F9DD7D92F9.pdf)

2017 Ford Trailer Towing Guide (http://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/Ford_Linc_17RV&TTgde_r5_Mar3.pdf)



With a full load of fuel and DEF (as delivered from the dealer J)




The smiley face, I'm guessing you think the dealer did you a favor ;)

I don't know about GM or Ram, but with Fords when the truck is ordered there is a separate line item on the dealer's order confirmation sheet that adds in the dollar amount for a full tank of fuel and DEF based on the current market value. The truck is then shopped with minimal fuel.
We don't see it on the invoice because it is added in to the base price of the truck.

53661

53660





Dropping the FX 4 i would have another 80lbs payload.

You could drop the FX4 and save some weight by not having the skid plates.

Or, if you think you would prefer the skid plates, there is a separate option for them, at $100.
You would then save $200 by not ordering the fx-4 package which includes the skid plates and a pair of decals and upgraded- decal only shocks

dave10a
07-31-2017, 10:09 AM
Actually, SAE J2807 stipulates the tow weight rating with a driver and passenger both weighing 150 pounds.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

What happens when the performance of your newly-developed vehicle exceeds the capabilities of the test equipment used to measure it? Ford Truck engineers faced that dilemma while preparing for the SAE J2807 towing tests of the all-new 2017 F-Series Super Duty.
Their conclusion: "We need a new dyno."

here is the article http://articles.sae.org/14710/

porthole
07-31-2017, 10:11 AM
Something I haven't noticed before, Ford now includes the tailgate height. Also note that the newest towing guide is as of September 2016

53662

And the "max" numbers are always based on the "least" amount of truck

53663

The last two pictures are from the same page of one of the towing guides, even side by side it is confusing.

Truck weights with even just the driver are really only a baseline.

Last time I weighed my F-350 RW at a CAT scale it came in at 10,020 pounds!

But that was with:
65 gallons fuel in main tank
40 gallons in the auxiliary
Full DEF
Tool box and roll top cover
Two people, which probably average out close to the 150 per
2 dogs
Some firewood
25 gallons of water (boon dock week)
TS-3 hitch which weighs about 300 pounds.

What I found interesting with every time I have done a truck and trailer weigh with either the Ford or my prior GM, the front axle steer weight never varied more then 40 pounds with the trailer hooked up versus truck only.

That number is the key reason I won't order a truck with a HD front spring or snow plow package.

alexb2000
07-31-2017, 10:54 AM
Interesting how much attention people pay to weight ratings.

I tend to be the kind that judges the way a truck and trailer tow in practice as to whether or not I am working the equipment to hard and possibly being unsafe regardless of ratings.

On paper the new 15+ F150 can tow 12,200 lbs. Yeah right, I owned that truck and towed with it quite a bit and while a very good truck it is still a half ton. My 5er weights about 11K NO WAY I would ever tow that with an F150.

My 1997 F350 7.3 was rated to tow a 14K trailer. Nope I wouldn't be towing over 10K with that one either, the brake size, lack of exhaust brake, auto tranny, just made for a difficult to stop vehicle especially at the speeds we are going today and the mountains we are pulling. Sure on the farm people are towing 20K with those, but that is a different environment than modern freeways with everyone going 80MPH bumper to bumper.

I rather buy the right vehicle and tow and stop with ease than rely on a sticker.

DW_Gray
08-01-2017, 12:34 AM
Now some of you seeing the frustrations I've had to deal with the last 4 years interpreting the crapy Ford charts and specs. After the second year, I decided then I'd never own a Ford truck just because of the mental headaches it caused me. Dag-nab-it, the 2018 charts are coming too soon.

porthole
08-01-2017, 07:18 AM
I decided then I'd never own a Ford truck just because of the mental headaches it caused me.




Too Bad Dave - you're missing out on the best pickup trucks out there.

Might be the specs are confusing intentionally, to keep the Ram and GM engineers on their toes with the slide rules trying to keep up!




53679

alexb2000
08-01-2017, 07:51 AM
Now some of you seeing the frustrations I've had to deal with the last 4 years interpreting the crapy Ford charts and specs. After the second year, I decided then I'd never own a Ford truck just because of the mental headaches it caused me. Dag-nab-it, the 2018 charts are coming too soon.

So you eliminated a brand of trucks because of a chart? OK, but since you are an RV educator there are a lot of other factors to consider than charts right? Would you suggest someone tow 30K with a class 3 truck (pick any brand)?

dave10a
08-01-2017, 10:15 AM
Too Bad Dave - you're missing out on the best pickup trucks out there.

Might be the specs are confusing intentionally, to keep the Ram and GM engineers on their toes with the slide rules trying to keep up!




53679 As an engineer, I can assure everyone that marketing (spin masters) play a significant role on what specs are publish or omitted to the general public :-)

fastcarsspeed
08-01-2017, 10:23 AM
I think there a lot more to it than just the printed specs. Again the manufactures also have to play with the Government and what they can state and how they can state it. Also insurance is a big factor to contend with also. The engines and chassis in these trucks can handle the load rating and more when driven conservatively and safely. Other than SRW and DRW when you look at the 350/3500 and above rigs they can pull pretty much most of the big coaches out there. I swear I feel people get too wrapped around the axle about this stuff.

DW_Gray
08-01-2017, 11:36 AM
So you eliminated a brand of trucks because of a chart? OK, but since you are an RV educator there are a lot of other factors to consider than charts right? Would you suggest someone tow 30K with a class 3 truck (pick any brand)?
"...factors to consider than charts right?"

Absolutely! The biggest problem is that most consumers read only the charts and don't read the other instructions, cautions, and warnings written in the owner's manual. I have written and published many articles covering multiple factors in selecting the right tow vehicle for the trailer to be towed. Spend an hour or so reading FWS content and you'd see.

I generally avoid suggesting a brand unless asked a specific question where I need point out some differences to consider. When working one-on-one with a client to provide a Comprehensive Tow Vehicle Report, I will provide multiple options and brands to consider. I don't get into the middle of a branding war.

My RV Tow Check app is primarily for the novice RVer. If you haven't noticed, the undereducated newbie gets into trouble more than anyone. The vast majority of dealers are no help. The RV industry, in general, is no help. However, some of the old-timers could learn some things too. I know, they have emailed me.

The biggest problem I have to reach the newbies is there are too few experienced RVers recommending Fifth Wheel Street or the articles I have written. A good example: Two RVers mentioned one of my articles over the weekend on three Facebook RV groups. Since Friday, it has been read by over 6,000 people and shared multiple times.

alexb2000
08-01-2017, 02:25 PM
"...factors to consider than charts right?"

Absolutely! The biggest problem is that most consumers read only the charts and don't read the other instructions, cautions, and warnings written in the owner's manual. I have written and published many articles covering multiple factors in selecting the right tow vehicle for the trailer to be towed. Spend an hour or so reading FWS content and you'd see.

I generally avoid suggesting a brand unless asked a specific question where I need point out some differences to consider. When working one-on-one with a client to provide a Comprehensive Tow Vehicle Report, I will provide multiple options and brands to consider. I don't get into the middle of a branding war.

My RV Tow Check app is primarily for the novice RVer. If you haven't noticed, the undereducated newbie gets into trouble more than anyone. The vast majority of dealers are no help. The RV industry, in general, is no help. However, some of the old-timers could learn some things too. I know, they have emailed me.

The biggest problem I have to reach the newbies is there are too few experienced RVers recommending Fifth Wheel Street or the articles I have written. A good example: Two RVers mentioned one of my articles over the weekend on three Facebook RV groups. Since Friday, it has been read by over 6,000 people and shared multiple times.

Dave...

Well... OK you did say that you wouldn't buy a Ford because of the charts, so I was just going by your comments.

I asked you a simple question about whether or not you would recommend a class 3 truck tow 30K lbs. Using your 5th wheel tow calculator for CAT scales on your site it would certainly imply that you would.

Hard to figure out your perspective.

DW_Gray
08-01-2017, 08:01 PM
Dave...

Well... OK you did say that you wouldn't buy a Ford because of the charts, so I was just going by your comments.

I asked you a simple question about whether or not you would recommend a class 3 truck tow 30K lbs. Using your 5th wheel tow calculator for CAT scales on your site it would certainly imply that you would.

Hard to figure out your perspective.
What I would or would not do is only for me personally. I said I won't buy a Ford. I don't tell what others they should do. I provide facts, options, and the appropriate tool for them to make an educated decision.

No one can know what vehicle is best for their towing needs until the following questions have been answered. It would be foolish for me to give a recommendation on so little information you provided. What works for me will most likely not work for a family of five with a big dog.


What is the tow vehicle's GCWR?
What is the tow vehicle's GVWR?
What is the tow vehicle's scaled weight when tow-ready (GVW)?
What is the tow vehicle's TWR?


In fact, the one seeking a vehicle should figure what he or she needs and they would be much better off not asking the opinions from others. Once one knows the answers to the four questions, then they enter that into the RV Tow Check App.

CDN
08-02-2017, 06:19 AM
Funny stuff on brands here. My FORD dealer outsells all local Chev/GMC and FIat Ram dealers. Local trends are different all over Ontario depending where you live and work. Why do they outsell? Price, Service and finally nice people and owners. As far as capacity of SRW vs DRW another poster stated that is the defining difference. The biggest single problem is speed. Some road warriors just go way to fast. Suppose to be a vacation, slow down, drive for the weather and road conditions and keep your distance to stop.


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