Electrical Shock while washing RV

weekender01 · Jun 18, 2017

So today while I was washing my 2017 Torque 321 I got a small electrical shock while washing the kitchen slide. A little background:

1. Was standing on a fiberglass ladder
2. Touched one of the screw heads on the slide when I felt the shock
3. Refrigerator was off
4. I have a Progressive HW-50 system installed
5. Plugged into 30 amp RV outlet at home
6. No Errors detected

Any guidance how to test the camper and how to hunt this electrical issue down is greatly appreciated as this is serious. I could have been seriously hurt.

Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn · Jun 18, 2017

First thing I would do is put a multi meter on that screw and see if there is voltage there.
And if there is,, How much.
Sounds to me time they've put a screw into a wire. If you find voltage there I think I'd just move or remove the screw.

Hope this helps
Jerrod

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danemayer · Jun 18, 2017

Hi weekender01,

Unplug your trailer right now.

You may have what's called a "Hot Skin" problem where the trailer exterior components are carrying voltage. "Hot Skin" is extremely dangerous and you should proceed with great caution until you either are certain that's not the situation, or you get it fixed.

Not kidding. Unplug the trailer right now!

The next thing to do is to go to a hardware store and purchase a non-contact voltage tester. This will allow you to investigate without having to touch the thing that might be electrically hot. Get the $20 tester, not the $10 one.

Use the tester to determine what areas of the coach are carrying electrical current. Maybe it's just the screw, in which case Jerrod may be correct about the screw being in contact with a wire.

If it's more than that, you need to look for 2 separate problems that can combine to cause this problem. The first problem is that you have something leaking current to ground. The second problem is that the trailer is not correctly grounded.

Normally when you have something leaking current, the current flows to ground and is harmless. But if the ground is faulty, the current will find another path - sometimes through you to earth.

You can investigate the source of the current leak by turning all circuit breakers off. The "Hot Skin" should go away. Then turn breakers on one by one until the problem reappears. That will tell you which appliance is leaking current.

To find the ground problem, start with your 30 amp outlet and make sure it's wired correctly - especially if it's new.

A defective/damaged extension cord or 50-->30 adapter can have a bad ground.

Check the connection of shore power cord to the trailer to make sure it's seated correctly and no wires are loose.

Check the backside of the circuit breaker panel in the trailer to verify the shore power ground wire is not loose.

You can read more about "Hot Skin" at this website.

If you're not comfortable investigating this yourself, get a licensed electrician to work on it for you.

And unplug your trailer until this is fixed!

weekender01 · Jun 19, 2017

danemayer said:
Hi weekender01,

Unplug your trailer right now.

You may have what's called a "Hot Skin" problem where the trailer exterior components are carrying voltage. "Hot Skin" is extremely dangerous and you should proceed with great caution until you either are certain that's not the situation, or you get it fixed.

Not kidding. Unplug the trailer right now!

The next thing to do is to go to a hardware store and purchase a non-contact voltage tester. This will allow you to investigate without having to touch the thing that might be electrically hot. Get the $20 tester, not the $10 one.

Use the tester to determine what areas of the coach are carrying electrical current. Maybe it's just the screw, in which case Jerrod may be correct about the screw being in contact with a wire.

If it's more than that, you need to look for 2 separate problems that can combine to cause this problem. The first problem is that you have something leaking current to ground. The second problem is that the trailer is not correctly grounded.

Normally when you have something leaking current, the current flows to ground and is harmless. But if the ground is faulty, the current will find another path - sometimes through you to earth.

You can investigate the source of the current leak by turning all circuit breakers off. The "Hot Skin" should go away. Then turn breakers on one by one until the problem reappears. That will tell you which appliance is leaking current.

To find the ground problem, start with your 30 amp outlet and make sure it's wired correctly - especially if it's new.

A defective/damaged extension cord or 50-->30 adapter can have a bad ground.

Check the connection of shore power cord to the trailer to make sure it's seated correctly and no wires are loose.

Check the backside of the circuit breaker panel in the trailer to verify the shore power ground wire is not loose.

You can read more about "Hot Skin" at this website.

If you're not comfortable investigating this yourself, get a licensed electrician to work on it for you.

And unplug your trailer until this is fixed!

Thanks. The trailer is unplugged and parked back at storage. I will get a tester and will start to investigate the issue. Thanks for the detail.

weekender01 · Jun 27, 2017

I know have the5[SUP]th[/SUP] wheel back from storage and have begun my testing. Below is a summary of what I have tested, but am not sure where to go next. This is using Klein Non Contact Tester. Using a multi meter is not possible right now as I have no earth ground to connect to.

1. With 5th wheel parked, unhooked from truck, front landing gear down and only battery on I tested the frame and skin, but got no beeps from tester.

2. Tested garage 30A outlet and extension cords for any grounding issues, shorts, etc. but everything tested perfect.

3. Plugged 50A power cord into dog bone to 30A outlet with breaker off for outlet. Tested the frame and skin again with no beeps from tester.

4. Turned outlet 30A breaker on and tested frame and skin and got low beeps meaning low voltage.

5. Turned off all breakers inside camper including the main breakers and tested the frame again and still got low beeps meaning low voltage.

Given my readings so far it appears that I have low voltage getting to the frame, but the battery on or off (battery disconnect) does not make a difference. I his normal to have low voltage on the frame? Any ideas how to start to trace down how low voltage is getting to the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] wheel frame and skin once I am plugged into an outlet if this is not normal?

Roller4tan · Jun 27, 2017

Voltage present with breakers off indicates an issue between the breaker panel and incoming power. Start at the end of your 50 amp cord and and check continuity at the prongs. Also check your dog bone, I've read of issues with them as well. You'll need a multimeter for that. Do you have a cord reel or a separate cable that has to be twist locked to the trailer?

cookie · Jun 27, 2017

You mentioned that you checked the 30 amp receptacle, is it wired correctly at both the receptacle and the main breaker panel?
If all breakers are off and you still have the hot skin then it is likely that something is not wired correctly.
I am surprised that your Progressive EMS did not pick up an error. Do you have it bypassed?

Peace
Dave

weekender01 · Jun 27, 2017

Thanks for the continued tips. I have gone back and double checked the outlet, the cords, and the dog bone and everything checked fine with a multi meter and with an outlet tester.

- Checked the panel for any lose connections - all tight
- Checked battery for grounding- found the negative battery terminal attached with lock teeth washers over
paint. I removed the wire, scuffed the paint off the frame and reinstalled.
- Rechecked with all breakers off - all good
- Turned on breakers one at a time and the only one to detect voltage on frame was the converter.
- Checked connections on converter and outlet it is plugged into - all tested fine

I know the voltage has to be below 48 volts since the non contact tester has 2 modes and the one is very sensitive. In the other mode it does not pick up any voltage on the frame. Am I being too cautious now? Am I testing correctly?

CDN · Jun 27, 2017

Hello,

I would start by turning the hot water heater breaker off, then things like TV and Microwave etc. This could be a ground leakage issue with a specific electrical item. Is it possible you earth ground green wire is broken or missing? The hard wired EMS has a crimp for the ground is this secure?

It might be very low leakage current happening.

Being a 2017 sound like a warranty dealer related issued. They need to do a hi-pot test for leakage. In the factory they do this at multiple stages in the assembly process to ensure no screws are in the wiring.

weekender01 · Jun 27, 2017

CDN said:
Hello,

I would start by turning the hot water heater breaker off, then things like TV and Microwave etc. This could be a ground leakage issue with a specific electrical item. Is it possible you earth ground green wire is broken or missing? The hard wired EMS has a crimp for the ground is this secure?

It might be very low leakage current happening.

Being a 2017 sound like a warranty dealer related issued. They need to do a hi-pot test for leakage. In the factory they do this at multiple stages in the assembly process to ensure no screws are in the wiring.

All the appliances were off during my test. The ground green wire is secure on my Progressive HW-50. I think it I very low voltage. I will be at a campground later this week and am going to check with a multimeter to see if I can detect the amount of voltage on the chassis. This is just driving me nuts.

danemayer · Jun 27, 2017

I'd urge you to get to the bottom of this before going camping. That low voltage can carry a lot of amps. If someone goes swimming and touches the skin of the trailer, it could be serious. Same thing if it rains. Or using the outdoor shower. Getting wet makes you a very good ground.

If you have a transfer switch, that's another possible problem area.

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mlpeloquin · Jun 27, 2017

Look you have hot skin. A person in a park with hot skin, and the park's power with a defective ground will make every rig in that section have hot skin. A kid was electrocuted coming back from swimming and died. Their rig was not the problem, but another one in the same power section with hot skin powering all RV's in the chain along with the parks defective ground. Your hot skin problem is seriously dangerous to you and your family and perhaps others. You got to get it fixed before you go camping, unless all you are going to do is dry camp.

avvidclif · Jun 27, 2017

As a note. The progressive EMS will shut down the power if the pole or power cord has a bad ground. It doesn't know what is after it so start after the EMS and go toward the breaker box

esscobra · Jun 27, 2017

https://heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/64540-New-from-texas-its-almost-here!/page3
I had serious cuts in insulation with exposed bare wire I my main leads inside transfer switch- abot halfway down page shows the cuts- they don't look that bad- but when that area is making a 90 turn I is wide open- basically when I opened transfer switch to disconnect main incoming to install progressive- the first thing I saw was a lot of shinny copper - so I would check all wiring and connections- I would remove the main feed wire say after progressive or transfer switch (ifyou have ) and that should narrow down where to look

schew · Jun 27, 2017

just wanted to share my experience, hopefully it may shed some light on your issue. When I had my first rv, while at home/storage, the rv was plugged into a 20amp circuit from a wall recepticle in my house. I recall getting shocked in my ear from the frame as I was bending down, inspecting the undercarriage of my rv. This happened twice, and so I knew for certain there was an issue. Perhaps an electrician can explain this but the the extension cord was plugged into one of my original outlets which did not have a ground, just a hot and neutral. When I rerouted my extension cord into a newer outlet that had a gfci, my skin wasnt hot anymore. Not sure if that doesnt mean I had an issue with the rv but are you plugged into an ungrounded circuit??

weekender01 · Jun 27, 2017

Thanks for the replies. I have double checked the outlet in my garage and it is wired correctly and the ground tested good. Each power cord checks correctly as well. I have gone through the transfer box, Progressive EMS, battery ground, etc. Everything was correct, all grounds good and connections were tight and did not see any cuts in wires.

I can confirm that the voltage being detected is less than 40 amps and with the best ground I can connect to I tested less than 1 volt on the RV chassis. Still cannot confirm why I got shocked but will continue testing until I am 100% positive there is no harmful voltage present. The other thing I am 100% sure of is that skin voltage is only detected if I turn on the converter breaker. With that breaker off there is no skin voltage detected.

weekender01 · Jun 28, 2017

So I checked he camper this morning and the non contact tester did not detect anything. Do I have an intermittent issue or a bad non contact tester? I am really baffled now.

fritzwell · Jun 28, 2017

weekender01 said:
So I checked he camper this morning and the non contact tester did not detect anything. Do I have an intermittent issue or a bad non contact tester? I am really baffled now.

Weekender,
Have you lifted the 120 wires into the converter, taped the ends up and turn feed brk back on and ck for your skin voltage. If it's still there disconnect the wire at brk and turn brk on, if skin voltage is gone it's the source wires to converter. If not sounds like converter. One other question you didn't happen to put your meter to dc and ck ? Something I always do with a multi meter they can pickup flukey stuff at times. Good old analog Simpson is had to beat.
Fritzwell

danemayer · Jun 28, 2017

weekender01 said:
I can confirm that the voltage being detected is less than 40 amps and with the best ground I can connect to I tested less than 1 volt on the RV chassis. Still cannot confirm why I got shocked but will continue testing until I am 100% positive there is no harmful voltage present. The other thing I am 100% sure of is that skin voltage is only detected if I turn on the converter breaker. With that breaker off there is no skin voltage detected.

Chris,

In your original post, you said you felt the shock while standing on a fiberglas ladder. This stood out to me as my understanding is that fiberglas ladders don't conduct electricity. For you to feel a shock when you're not grounded suggested a significant current leak from the RV.

The converter breaker supplies power to a 20 amp outlet into which the converter is plugged. If the problem only occurs with that breaker powered, I'd take a look at the wires in that outlet. If no issues there, you may have a converter problem.

However, the way I understand the hot skin problem is that typically 1) some device is leaking current to ground, and 2) the grounding of the RV back to the pedestal has a problem that causes the leaking current to seek another path to ground - through your body.

Here's the first part of the NoShockZone.org article:

FYI: It only takes about 20 mA of electrical current (20/1000 of an amp) to cause your body to clamp down and not be able to let go of an energized wire. And 30 mA of current (30/1000 of an amp) for a few seconds can cause your heart to go into fibrillation. So just 30 volts AC with 30 mA of current can kill you if your hands and feet are wet. That’s only about 1 watt, less than the power of a small nightlight bulb.
An RV chassis and skin with ANY significant voltage above earth potential (2 volts is max) is proof that you’ve lost your RV’s safety ground connection. Now, by itself an open ground connection won’t cause an RV hot-skin voltage condition, but nearly anything inside your RV plugged into its electrical system will cause some leakage current to the RV chassis-ground. And that leakage will show up as a hot-skin voltage of varying degree. The really dangerous thing is that sometimes those can be high-impedance leakage currents that aren’t particularly dangerous. And that’s when you feel a “little” shock. However, that same “little” current can quickly become low-impedance/high-current leakage in a heartbeat, and that will almost certainly kill you if you touch the RV with wet hands and feet. It’s just a matter of degree, and you never know what that degree is. So any feeling of shocks from your RV or appliance is a warning to turn off the circuit breakers and disconnect the power plug immediately.

More detail at this page.

gregw · Jun 28, 2017

From reading the thread it appears that a non contact testing device is being used. IMO put it back in the tool box. They have their uses but this is not one of them. In 30+ years of electrical/controls work nothing replaces a good Simpson/Fluke meter. Please do the checks with one for verification. I would never check a circuit with the non contact device in a critical situation as this. Ground or no ground use the multi-meter.

Electrical Shock while washing RV

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