Dangerous Electrical Issue - Cyclone 5th Wheel RV

intored · Jul 31, 2017

On a recent 2,500 mile trip between Chicago and Ft Myers, FL we ran into a problem with our running lights not working on half the carriage. Two days of troubleshoot and repair as a result of a electrical short at a steel cross member penetration. As a mechanical engineer I understand product failures are fact of life, however far more care should be exercised when adding a combustible as dangerous as gasoline. There is a very good reason why the automotive industry doesn't use rubber hose from the fuel tank to the pump....as the video link below shows I was very, very lucky!

Lynn1130 · Jul 31, 2017

We need a little more info on the trailer.

1. What year and model Cyclone?
2. Was it purchased used or new?
3. If used, could this have been a mod by a former owner?
4. If new, and wired and plumbed that way has Heartland been made aware?

This is a concern and if Heartland is sending units or sent units out that way it needs to be rectified by them.

intored · Jul 31, 2017

Hi Lynn,
I think this is a 2013, I bought used in 2014. I had no issues with the electric until this year, so this failure happened while I owned it. I am curious however who/when the auto leveling was installed as it looked like this is something added after the coach was finished; is this a OEM addition or dealer installed? However this doesn't change the fact that the fuel lines are not responsibly handled at the OEM level; these should be steel tubing with only rubber hoses at termination points.

szewczyk_john · Jul 31, 2017

Thanks for the post. Another issue that I will have to look at next time I have the underbelly opened up. I saw that you have a 2 axle Cyclone but was wondering which model and year yours is?

intored · Jul 31, 2017

szewczyk_john said:
Thanks for the post. Another issue that I will have to look at next time I have the underbelly opened up. I saw that you have a 2 axle Cyclone but was wondering which model and year yours is?

Hi John,
Pretty sure its the 3010 Cyclone, if memory serves me. We use it twice a year (Sturgis in the Summer and Florida in the Winter), so kind of surprised abrasion happened this early as the electrical also has a secondary corrugated sleeve then expanding foam is used. as mentioned in my second post, I'm guessing the auto-leveling unit was installed after the coach was build; so maybe the isolation was compromised? My biggest beef is the rubber fuel line

fastcarsspeed · Jul 31, 2017

We have a 2014 4100HD and it looks like you have similar graphics to our coach. I will have to get under there and look. I think because the fuel is not flowing when the coach is moving they do not follow the same rules as the auto industry. I would hope that it would be routed separately from the electrical but now I will have to get up under the coach and look. The level up is probably installed at the end of the manufacturing process since it is an add on.

porthole · Jul 31, 2017

Having steel tubing with multiple rubber hose connections will just add more places to leak.

But, while you are at it. Take down the forward basement wall and look for pinching of the fuel line where it comes up from the frame run into the back of the generator compartment.

NWILSON · Jul 31, 2017

Our 2017 Cyclone 4150 has the fuel lines running through gray plastic conduit all of which is outside of the frame.

intored · Jul 31, 2017

NWILSON said:
Our 2017 Cyclone 4150 has the fuel lines running through gray plastic conduit all of which is outside of the frame.

I wonder if this issue has presented itself before? If I wasn't pinched for time (heading to Sturgis on Wednesday), I would do the same thing and run non-metallic, PVC conduit from front to back outside the frame rails then snake the hose inside that.

TravelTiger · Jul 31, 2017

fastcarsspeed said:
We have a 2014 4100HD and it looks like you have similar graphics to our coach. I will have to get under there and look. I think because the fuel is not flowing when the coach is moving they do not follow the same rules as the auto industry. I would hope that it would be routed separately from the electrical but now I will have to get up under the coach and look. The level up is probably installed at the end of the manufacturing process since it is an add on.

Level up, if installed at the Heartland factory, is at the first stage when the frame rolls into the factory.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

danemayer · Jul 31, 2017

RVIA has a code requirement for RV generator fuel lines. Non-metallic fuel lines meet code.

However -

Do not tie to, or allow fuel line to contact any electrical wiring, AC or DC.Use grommets or sleeves where a fuel line passes through frame members or compartment
walls.
Fuel lines should be secure throughout their length and not be able to move or vibrate

porthole · Aug 1, 2017

TravelTiger said:
Level up, if installed at the Heartland factory, is at the first stage when the frame rolls into the factory.

On newer trailers.

And the frames come from Lippert with the brackets already welded on, whether LevelUp is an option or not.

The OP has a 2013 Cyclone. Odds are pretty good that is an after new installation done by Lippert in Elkhart. Those trailers didn't have brackets and adding them on was a challenge since the trailer is completely built and not just a frame on a rotisserie.

That is one of the reasons the brackets may not be in the same relative location from side to side, or from one trailer to the next.
One of our former members here pulled his Cyclone out of the Lippert shop as I was puling our Cyclone in.
Back to back installations by the same person and they were noticeably different.

- - - Updated - - -

NWILSON said:
Our 2017 Cyclone 4150 has the fuel lines running through gray plastic conduit all of which is outside of the frame.

Pictures Neale?

intored · Aug 1, 2017

porthole said:
On newer trailers.

And the frames come from Lippert with the brackets already welded on, whether LevelUp is an option or not.

The OP has a 2013 Cyclone. Odds are pretty good that is an after new installation done by Lippert in Elkhart. Those trailers didn't have brackets and adding them on was a challenge since the trailer is completely built and not just a frame on a rotisserie.

That is one of the reasons the brackets may not be in the same relative location from side to side, or from one trailer to the next.
One of our former members here pulled his Cyclone out of the Lippert shop as I was puling our Cyclone in.
Back to back installations by the same person and they were noticeably different.

- - - Updated - - -

Pictures Neale?

Agreed, this looks pretty chopped up. Some of the tell tails are the aluminum skirting at the bottom of the trailer where they cut access for the cylinders and mounts, it looks like it was done by hand with a die grinder. Also where the skirting used to be secured to the I-Beam flange with silicone adhesive, there is the original glue line, then a second glue line closer to the edge as cut out in the skirt didn't clear the cylinder.

So given the close proximity to the point of failure, one could certainly speculate that this second group of production staff might have adversely impacted isolations and safeguards outlined by RVIA that danemayer posted? Given the inherent safety nature of this issue, I would have expected more concern from Heartland as they have ultimate responsibility for the product, or am I wrong and should expect nothing but finger pointing between Lippert and Heartland?

Bob&Patty · Aug 1, 2017

Just my 2 cts worth. If the level up was installed by Lippert after the unit left the HL plant....point the finger at Lippert.

danemayer · Aug 1, 2017

intored said:
So given the close proximity to the point of failure, one could certainly speculate that this second group of production staff might have adversely impacted isolations and safeguards outlined by RVIA that danemayer posted? Given the inherent safety nature of this issue, I would have expected more concern from Heartland as they have ultimate responsibility for the product, or am I wrong and should expect nothing but finger pointing between Lippert and Heartland?

Heartland would obviously be responsible for what comes out of the Heartland factory door. In addition, because they subcontract full body paint, and don't ship to the dealer until after they get the trailer back, Heartland will take responsibility for the quality of the paint work.

If a dealer or owner arranged after the initial build to send the trailer to the Lippert shop, Lippert would be responsible for the quality of that work.

Did Heartland have an outside subcontracting arrangement on levelup with Lippert at one time for toy haulers? I don't know. But as a point of reference, I do know that our 2011 Landmark, built in 2010, came with 4 point levelup and I think it came out the Heartland factory door with the levelup.

Tree14 · Aug 2, 2017

intored said:
I wonder if this issue has presented itself before? If I wasn't pinched for time (heading to Sturgis on Wednesday), I would do the same thing and run non-metallic, PVC conduit from front to back outside the frame rails then snake the hose inside that.

We're headed to Sturgis Friday hauling a 2016 Cyclone, thanks for the information. Our Spring trip was eventful with 2 right rear tires exploding !

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk

Lynn1130 · Aug 2, 2017

I hope you changed out all of the tires if the ones that exploded were BlowMax (Tow Max). If not you are in for more grief.

intored · Aug 10, 2017

Update: Smoking Gun Found

So I was finishing up the repairs by properly dressing the penetration, protecting the harness in new loom then refoaming the hole with black landscaping foam, when I was dumbfounded by the presence of a very sharp and pointy screw right in the path of the existing harness? These screws where not present in the first video because I had already removed them to gain access to the damaged area, so they where omitted as part of the failure speculation. They are sharp self drilling/tapping screws and are so long they actually travel right into the space allotted for the harness. These screws are used to fasten the underbelly liner (the corrugated plastic skin) to the frame rails and look similar to this:

danemayer · Aug 10, 2017

intored said:
Update: Smoking Gun Found

So I was finishing up the repairs by properly dressing the penetration, protecting the harness in new loom then refoaming the hole with black landscaping foam, when I was dumbfounded by the presence of a very sharp and pointy screw right in the path of the existing harness? These screws where not present in the first video because I had already removed them to gain access to the damaged area, so they where omitted as part of the failure speculation. They are sharp self drilling/tapping screws and are so long they actually travel right into the space allotted for the harness. These screws are used to fasten the underbelly liner (the corrugated plastic skin) to the frame rails and look similar to this:

View attachment 53858

Have you had repair work done in the past where the coroplast was dropped? On ours the factory screws are on the outside portion of the frame except for 4 or 5 across at the drop frame. The one in your video looks like an unusual placement.

intored · Aug 11, 2017

danemayer said:
Have you had repair work done in the past where the coroplast was dropped? On ours the factory screws are on the outside portion of the frame except for 4 or 5 across at the drop frame. The one in your video looks like an unusual placement.

None done by me and based on the condition of the fasteners and existing penetrations these all looked like original locations. I do not believe there is a template for the locations and the assembler has some discretion on placement as even the remaining lateral screws floated front/back along the cross brace.

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