cabinets not level....... or is it the floor?

RanCarr · May 26, 2012

What next?

We always felt we were kind of "falling" or leaning toward the slide or sink/stove side of the TT. It's not a comfortable feeling when cooking or washing dishes. The bathroom door always opened toward the bunks. But the level said the we were level. So I bought a few more levels and we discovered the counters and table, when level, leaves the floor tilted to the slide side, slide in or out. And it's off by quite a bit. If the floor is level, the table and counter tops are not. They are tilted. Isn't there someone at the plant responsible to see that these TTs are put together correctly? I know this Forum doesn't exist for complaints and problems with the Heartland RVs, but it's been one issue after the other since we bought this unit brand new. I see no way something like this can be corrected without ripping out the entire stove and sink unit and somehow leveling them with shims, when the floor is dead level. This is way beyond our expertise and too costly for us to have done by professionals. So that leaves us the choice of having the floor tilted or the table and kitchen unit tilted. The fire or the frying pan....... which would you choose?

CliffP · May 26, 2012

Sorry about your problems! We've been asking what next since we brought ours home.

bayhawk2 · May 26, 2012

I just bought our first T/T and same here.The kitchen table is wobbly.I think it's the floor and not
the table.The slide out seal on top was ripped all the way across and the A/C unit
has to have a new motor installed...I paid way too much for this thing to have these
kind of issues this early.1 month since I bought it.I bought the extended warranty
on the A/C,Fridge,and Furnace.I thought these things were made a little better
than this.Oh well.In the shop we go again.It's all under warranty,but I'd like to go
camping in it sometime.May have to start camping at the repair shops...

...

CliffP · May 26, 2012

bayhawk2 said:
I just bought our first T/T and same here.The kitchen table is wobbly.I think it's the floor and not
the table.The slide out seal on top was ripped all the way across and the A/C unit
has to have a new motor installed...I paid way too much for this thing to have these
kind of issues this early.1 month since I bought it.I bought the extended warranty
on the A/C,Fridge,and Furnace.I thought these things were made a little better
than this.Oh well.In the shop we go again.It's all under warranty,but I'd like to go
camping in it sometime.May have to start camping at the repair shops......

What make and model?

RanCarr · May 27, 2012

CliffP said:
Sorry about your problems! We've been asking what next since we brought ours home.

What problems have you had?

I can't see how ours can be resolved. I wish we would have done this before the warranty was up. I kept telling my husband the floor doesn't feel level but until we got the extra levels this past week and put them everywhere at the same time, he didn't take it seriously. I'm really starting to regret buying this TT. We want to replace the cheap uncomfortable flattening cushions in the dinette that the 28BRS comes with, but nowhere can I find the size needed. It's an odd size. I wont buy sight unseen in fear of replacing the poor quality ones with ones just as bad. So for now we just put chair cushions from K-Mart over the flattening ones and sit on those.

We're going to have to remove the spare from under the hitch as it's so close to the ground it drags in the campgrounds and on any incline or decline when they level out. On every incline the back bike tray drags. The whole camper is too low to the ground, unless you live and camp where it's dead level like the Bonneville salt flats. I fear the sewer pipe dump will be ripped off as were the 2 back leveling jacks. That too is very low. I got the price to have the two dark slider windows replaced with clear jalousie windows = $1,800 before labor. I wont put that kind of money into this TT. We paid $19,000 for it and expected better quality. The clear jalousie windows would make the TT brighter as it's as dim as a cave, and give us good air circulation when it rains. The two awning windows in the bedrooms are not adjustable. They're either open all the way, or shut. This unit needs larger windows with clear glass and if Jalousie windows are too expensive for HL to use, then they should add at least one or two skylights to the living area. Even on the brightest day we have the lights on. The small window over the sink is impossible to open unless you're over 5' 8" tall.....

RanCarr · May 27, 2012

bayhawk2 said:
I just bought our first T/T and same here.The kitchen table is wobbly.I think it's the floor and not
the table.The slide out seal on top was ripped all the way across and the A/C unit
has to have a new motor installed...I paid way too much for this thing to have these
kind of issues this early.

I know exactly how you feel. I know the disappointment. We bought new ($19,000) and expected the quality of the other two TTs (different mfg's) we bought before it. It looked so nice on the lot and and it was the floor plan we wanted. Who knew about all these issues until you actually get the TT and start camping in it. If it weren't for the FantasticFan we installed and 1/2 clothespins jammed in the small awning window's bars, we would suffocate when it rained. Rain has already stretched the awning as too much collects before it "dumps" the water, so we have to bring it in when it rains or threatens to rain.

Those are serious issues you had.

1 month since I bought it.I bought the extended warranty
on the A/C,Fridge,and Furnace.I thought these things were made a little better
than this.Oh well.In the shop we go again.It's all under warranty,but I'd like to go
camping in it sometime.May have to start camping at the repair shops......

I hear and feel your pain.... I can assure you this wont happen to us again. I hope you can get everything fixed and get out there camping and traveling before the season ends.

bayhawk2 · May 27, 2012

Ooops sorry-It's a Heartland MPG-Small..the wife and I love this little trailer.Actually
shoped around and had to go a few miles farther than we wanted
to get one.It has some issues.We got the seal replaced at the dealer and they gave the A/C a shot.
The bearing noise just got worse.Repair guy here said it has to have a new motor.
Hoping dometic sends a whole new unit.We'll see.

bayhawk2 · May 27, 2012

RanCarr-Right back at cha..Yeah,I think it'll all be good.Hopefully get it
back by next week-end.Fingers crossed.Can't wait to get out there and
at least wave at some of you guys.

Boca_Shuffles · May 27, 2012

RanCarr said:
Rain has already stretched the awning as too much collects before it "dumps" the water, so we have to bring it in when it rains or threatens to rain.

Not to hijack the thread, but maybe this will help with one of your problems and make you feel a little better.

When lowering your electric awning, don't lower it all the way. Only lower it until the vertical flap line is at the six or seven o'clock position. This will keep tension on the awning and reduce the pooling area above.

If you lower the awning until the vertical flap line is at nine or ten o'clock, the awning is not as tight and the water will pool up behind the bar instead of going over the bar.

Hope this helps.

CliffP · May 27, 2012

RanCarr said:
What problems have you had?

I can't see how ours can be resolved. I wish we would have done this before the warranty was up. I kept telling my husband the floor doesn't feel level but until we got the extra levels this past week and put them everywhere at the same time, he didn't take it seriously. I'm really starting to regret buying this TT. We want to replace the cheap uncomfortable flattening cushions in the dinette that the 28BRS comes with, but nowhere can I find the size needed. It's an odd size. I wont buy sight unseen in fear of replacing the poor quality ones with ones just as bad. So for now we just put chair cushions from K-Mart over the flattening ones and sit on those. We're going to have to remove the spare from under the hitch as it's so close to the ground it drags in the campgrounds and on any incline or decline when they level out. On every incline the back bike tray drags. The whole camper is too low to the ground, unless you live and camp where it's dead level like the Bonneville salt flats. I fear the sewer pipe dump will be ripped off as were the 2 back leveling jacks. That too is very low. I got the price to have the two dark slider windows replaced with clear jalousie windows = $1,800 before labor. I wont put that kind of money into this TT. We paid $19,000 for it and expected better quality. The clear jalousie windows would make the TT brighter as it's as dim as a cave, and give us good air circulation when it rains. The two awning windows in the bedrooms are not adjustable. They're either open all the way, or shut. This unit needs larger windows with clear glass and if Jalousie windows are too expensive for HL to use, then they should add at least one or two skylights to the living area. Even on the brightest day we have the lights on. The small window over the sink is impossible to open unless you're over 5' 8" tall.....

I don't really want to start bashing without giving Heartland and our dealer a fair chance to fix things and make things right. Most of the issues could have been avoided with a little quality control. Stuff happens and the biggest reason we went with North Trail is encouragement through this forum that Heartland stands behind its products and will take care of problems people have with their Heartland products. I can tell you I'm a patient guy and there have been many times I've seen red over the issues we've had. I hope I haven't mislead anyone by repeating claims others have made on this forum and encouraging people to buy Heartlands. None of the issues we've had were turned down but the list for the next trip back is getting long and it is discouraging to know counting the next trip to the dealer I'll have close to $400 in fuel costs not to mention time. I work full time and will have to take a full day off work to take it back to the dealer. Needless to say it is getting to be a huge expense.

kkamshop · May 27, 2012

RanCarr, sorry about your troubles, but here's some help for your flattening cushions. Take them to an upholstery shop, they can cut foam to fit. Tell them you want the foam to be more firm than what it currently is, but watch out for the firmest foam because it is not real comfy to sit on!

Firmer foam = more $$

You should have new cushions in a jiffy!

JohnDar · May 27, 2012

Leveling is supposedly best done by checking over the axles on the floor. I've also read that getting the refrigerator level is more important than the bathroom door. That said, I can't get to my axle position unless I've got the slides out. So I put my LVL-1 transmitter on the kitchen counter next to the sink, which puts it about midship in the rig (I also have some stick-on levels outside). Seems to work, although there is a slight mismatch between counter tops and the floor when I reposition the transmitter, but not enough to skew things. Ground Control jack system made fine tuning the level easy, especially since this site has a slope putting the ODS higher than the DS. Fortunately, my bathroom doors are pocket doors.

Marge · May 28, 2012

We have figured out, when we level it, perfectly side to side, then after we put the slide out, that side is now lower and quite visible so. So now I make sure the slide side is a bit high and then after we get all set up with the slide out, then it is level.

We have had more than our share of problems with this trailer, mostly leaking around the slide. It is fine when we have the slide in and when going down the road in heavy rains, but if it rains a lot with the slide out we still get some leakage behind the couch. Nothing like it had been last year however. And also seems like condensation around one corner on the slide, near the bed. We have redone all the caulking and it had new seals put on, among other things. We now just think it is a design flaw or some such thing.

I don't want to get started on this subject.

Meanwhile, back to the leveling. I put the level on the kitchen counter and double check the fridge before we get set up. I also now use the tongue of the trailer from the front to back leveling and also going by the frame, it seems to match with the level inside. It sure makes it easier than running into the trailer to get things level.

Jimmyt5 · May 28, 2012

I was at a Domedic seminar about refers, the tech said if the room is comfortable for you it is ok for the refer. I use this and have never had a problem..

RanCarr · May 29, 2012

Boca_Shuffles said:
RanCarr said:

Rain has already stretched the awning as too much collects before it "dumps" the water, so we have to bring it in when it rains or threatens to rain.

Not to hijack the thread, but maybe this will help with one of your problems and make you feel a little better.

When lowering your electric awning, don't lower it all the way. Only lower it until the vertical flap line is at the six or seven o'clock position. This will keep tension on the awning and reduce the pooling area above.

Click to expand...

Yes, we were aware of that. It still pools until the awning sags before dumping. That's why we bring it in now when we leave the campground or it even looks like rain.

If you lower the awning until the vertical flap line is at nine or ten o'clock, the awning is not as tight and the water will pool up behind the bar instead of going over the bar.

Hope this helps.

Click to expand...

RanCarr · May 29, 2012

kkamshop said:
RanCarr, sorry about your troubles, but here's some help for your flattening cushions. Take them to an upholstery shop, they can cut foam to fit. Tell them you want the foam to be more firm than what it currently is, but watch out for the firmest foam because it is not real comfy to sit on!

Firmer foam = more $$

You should have new cushions in a jiffy!

What you're suggesting is very costly. We're both retired. Think over $500 with new covers to replace the cheap ones. Maybe even more. The COST of replacing these poor quality cushions shouldn't be ours. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. The TT should have come with cushions people could sit on more than a few times before flattening out and the covers becoming sloppy looking. When I complained to Heartland they offered to replace them, but with the SAME cheap cushions! Why bother? We would need them replaced constantly. After a few camping trips they would be in the same poor shape. HL would not replace them with better quality. As God is my witness, we bought a well used 15.5 1982 Sunline ($2,200) when we started camping and the cushions were still like new, as were the heavy duty original covers that were removable. All we had to do was remove the covers and wash them a few times as they were quite dirty. The rubber cushion part was, except for discoloration, like new and very comfortable. We just aired them out.

I have pics of that TT and the originals can be seen in the pics. Our second TT was a new 19' Crossroads Zinger ($10,000). We had it a year and used it often... the cushions were still like new when we sold it to buy our North Trail. But they weren't as thick as the old Sunline's. After a few camping trips with the North Trail we noticed we were "bottoming" out and very uncomfortable. I pulled off the blankets I keep them covered with to see they were already flattening and the covers twisting. I couldn't believe my eyes..........

I don't think any RV mfg should be selling RVs with cushions that the buyer has to replace after a few camping trips. Do you? Why not sell them without cushions then and tell the buyer to buy their own somewhere? Sorry but I am getting frustrated with this TT and with all the issues we've had with it and continue to have. We now have to figure out where to move the spare tire to because it drags as the TT is so low to the ground, and sooner or later will be ripped off the hitch thing.

TravelTiger · May 29, 2012

RanCarr, sorry you are unhappy with the quality of the cushions. I am afraid that they way things are, MANY companies are forced to find ways to cut costs (like outsourcing) to keep the consumer buying. Otherwise, we just tighten our purse-strings and move on, right? I don't know much of anything that's made the way it "used to be". from what I've seen, the NorthTrail is one of the better-made trailers out there. Hope you can see past this and still enjoy the RVing experience!

E

RanCarr · May 29, 2012

Marge said:
We have figured out, when we level it, perfectly side to side, then after we put the slide out, that side is now lower and quite visible so. So now I make sure the slide side is a bit high and then after we get all set up with the slide out, then it is level.

So far we've had no problems with our slide leaking. If there are leaks, they're running down the inside walls, not into the RV. Our slide doesn't seem to effect leveling but we have a different model. We have the 28BRS. When they installed the kitchen units, dinette etc in our TT, no one bothered to see if they were level. And no one bothered to check afterward.

We have had more than our share of problems with this trailer, mostly leaking around the slide. It is fine when we have the slide in and when going down the road in heavy rains, but if it rains a lot with the slide out we still get some leakage behind the couch. Nothing like it had been last year however. And also seems like condensation around one corner on the slide, near the bed. We have redone all the caulking and it had new seals put on, among other things. We now just think it is a design flaw or some such thing.

Trust me on this, if the engineers who designed these NT TTs had to spend a few long weekends or a 2 week vacation in them, they would make many changes in the design. We get condensation behind the front bed that actually dampens the mattress when it's cold and the heat is running. We had to pull the mattress away from the front wall as far as possible until we no longer needed heat down in Ocala last winter. Of course, then the pillows want to fall behind the mattress all night long. That area needs extra insulation.

I don't want to get started on this subject.

Meanwhile, back to the leveling. I put the level on the kitchen counter and double check the fridge before we get set up. I also now use the tongue of the trailer from the front to back leveling and also going by the frame, it seems to match with the level inside. It sure makes it easier than running into the trailer to get things level.

We have an outside level also, and an inside level. That's why I was always wondering why I felt I was "leaning" to the slide side. But we can't level the floor unless we're willing to have everything else off kilter in the TT. You want my opinion? I think HL should take my unit back and replace it with one that doesn't have all these problems.

As for the constant trouble with the kitchen sink leaks. I think my husband finally has that one handled. And he had to put super heavy casters on the ends of the rear frame to keep the back bumper and slideout tray from being destroyed in campgrounds, truck stops and gas stations. So far all these repairs have come out of our pocket. As I said above, this will never happen to us again.

Oh, and we had to pay to replace the rear stabilizers destroyed in the first month we camped. We also replaced the front one that got bent a bit later. I have no idea what the engineer was thinking when he/she designed this TT to be so close to the ground. Few places are as flat as Kansas.

As for the windows, as stated, to replace them with clear jalousie windows (so we can get air to breathe when it rains) and another roof vent would be almost $3,000 with labor.

RanCarr · May 29, 2012

TravelTiger said:
RanCarr, sorry you are unhappy with the quality of the cushions. I am afraid that they way things are, MANY companies are forced to find ways to cut costs (like outsourcing) to keep the consumer buying. Otherwise, we just tighten our purse-strings and move on, right? I don't know much of anything that's made the way it "used to be". from what I've seen, the NorthTrail is one of the better-made trailers out there. Hope you can see past this and still enjoy the RVing experience!

E

It's not just the cushions. I wish it were, believe me. If the owner of HL had these in his/her RV, they would stop putting them in their RVs. Those I could see past. But this floor/tilted kitchen units is like the last straw. I've posted on here before about various problems we've had with this TT right from the start. Being too close to the ground is an ongoing issue since we don't live in Kansas or where everything is as level as a table top. The rear stabilizers were destroyed the first month in un-level CGs, a front one bent. All three were replaced at our expense. The spare tire under the hitch must be moved elsewhere and we have no idea where to put it. Where would you put it to keep it from dragging? The leaks under the kitchen sink faucet, we fixed those also and paid for the new faucet. The kink in the outdoor shower hose and the hose blocking the knob that we can't resolve. The pinch stops the flow of water. You can unkink it but it starts kinking again. Poor design. The condensation behind the master bed's mattress due to lack of insulation in that area. We can't rip off the wall and fix that either. The need for a Fantastic-Fan (we paid for) in the bathroom so we can breath when it rains, and trying to jam the awning windows open for the fan to work, yet keep the rain out - these cheap pushout awning windows come with no adjustments. The outside awning all stretched and looking awful from catching rain and not dumping it no matter how it's set, until it's bulging in the middle. I wanted the manual awning that we could tilt and leave out in the rain and for shade. I was told this TT only comes with these electric level-out only awnings. I see no advantage in them. The sun shines right under it since it can't be tilted. Why have an awning at all? The dealer also lied to me about the dark windows I despise that make the inside dark and gloomy like a cave, claiming I could call HL and have the clear ones and the jalousie ones factory installed. That was not the case. I would have to have to done after delivery by someone else. I'm 5' 6" and can't reach over the sink and counter to open the small kitchen window. Why install a window only someone 5' 8' or 9" can open? When you buy the BRS28, you have no choices but a few designs for the material on the dinette cushions, all brown. All similar. No color choices. Now we have to live with a tilted floor or tilted cabinets. Is your floor tilted? Or if your floor is level, are the other things all tilted? I tried to convince myself I was imagining it until we actually put levels all over the inside horizontal surfaces. I was tired of feeling like I was falling toward the sink/stove/slideout. Every try to cook with a tilted stove or eat off a tilted table? Or have those things level and always feel like you're falling or leaning over?

I say this wont happen again because now I know better. If I can't get some of the things I want from a RV mfg, they don't want my money or business. I'll move on to another Brand/mfg and if necessary, buy an older rig with quality materials, clear jalousie windows for air and light, better insulation so my mattress stays dry, cushions that don't flatten after a few camping trips, a manual awning that is useful, level floor/cabinets (I'll bring a few with me), higher off the ground without needing ultra-heavy duty casters... and the other bugs shaken out and taken care off by the owner before me.

No, this will never happen to us again.

Keep in mind the Zinger was a 2008 or 09, a leftover we got for a good price, not an older model.

I understand cutting costs as my husband had his own business before he retired. But there is a limit.....

RanCarr · May 29, 2012

CliffP said:
I don't really want to start bashing without giving Heartland and our dealer a fair chance to fix things and make things right. Most of the issues could have been avoided with a little quality control.

Exactly, that's how I feel. It appears no one checks the rigs before they leave the line and get sent to the dealers. Anyone with a few cheap small levels would quickly see our cabinets are not installed correctly and are not level. Or that the outside shower had a kink, barely dribbled, and you can't easily turn the water knob as the hose comes out right over it. No one realized that TTs are often bought by people who don't live and camp where the ground is level?

Stuff happens and the biggest reason we went with North Trail is encouragement through this forum that Heartland stands behind its products and will take care of problems people have with their Heartland products. I can tell you I'm a patient guy and there have been many times I've seen red over the issues we've had. I hope I haven't mislead anyone by repeating claims others have made on this forum and encouraging people to buy Heartlands. None of the issues we've had were turned down but the list for the next trip back is getting long and it is discouraging to know counting the next trip to the dealer I'll have close to $400 in fuel costs not to mention time. I work full time and will have to take a full day off work to take it back to the dealer. Needless to say it is getting to be a huge expense.

I hope they get it all done for you this time.

cabinets not level....... or is it the floor?

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