Pin weight or hitch problem. Which one?

Re: Reese Elite issues, asking opinions

Hello,

I have a Reese Elite just like yours. Mine has the same movement as you measured. The weight of the pin on my SOB was 1900 lbs didn't move on the road. On my Bighorn I am at 2,800 to 3,000 lbs. It just sits there and not an issue. Now I do have a Sidewinder and my wedge is locked in the throat nice and tight. I also have grease on everything, no friction pad for me. I never see the trailer move up at all, just sits there. My hitch is 6 seasons old. I show no wear marks on the pins at all.

I am wondering if your puck system need to be adjusted? The reason I say that is I had too after changing trucks 3 times. The locking pin into the puck was not the same on any of the in bed systems of the 3 trucks I owned. I do have a liberal helping of grease on the pucks so they seat easily and allows me to tighten them one more hole on the locking pin in some cases. I would make sure the underbid parts are tight.

Others have mentioned pin weight, maybe it is too light.

Brian

Re: Reese Elite issues, asking opinions

I'll post back in this thread to update. The pin is still moving. I have official weight numbers and all seem correct. After weighing the trailer I have 2,380 lbs of pin weight with a trailer at the time weighing 14,140 lb. That would put the pin weight at 16.8% of the empty trailer weight. here are the scale tickets.

Re: Reese Elite issues, asking opinions

Moderators possibly the thread title can be changed to "Pin weight or hitch problem which one?"

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I did a little big of digging and have found that our trailer was made with a 15% pin weight from the factory. that it's empty weight was 13000 lbs and pin weight 2020 lbs. So I am at an impasse because I don't know if the trailer was designed without enough pin weight but I have been having this issue with the trailer for some time now but only was recently able to capture what exactly is happening.

Dave,

You know the issue I had, it looks like you do not have enough pin weight. I had my setup weighed at the National Rally and they told me you want your pin weight to be at 20-25%. So I would definitely try to move some weight forward and see what happens, I'm guessing you will be much happier.

In the video it appears the king pin and plate are raising up off the turn table. Also it appears that you are not using a Nylon lube disc. One of those will dampen the noise of the king pin plate coming back down on the turn table. And I would choose a different route. Also try to get pin weight higher. Also you could try towing in alt ride height on the RAM air suspension.

You are not running 80 lbs inflation in the rear dual tires on the TV are you? Setting the inflation to match the light load might help, the 65 lbs inflation for the duals is based on 9750 weight rating of the rear axle.

6500 on the rear axle only needs about 37.5 lbs inflation per tire for the load you are hauling. Try 40-50 lbs inflation in the rear tires. That provides 6900 to 8160 capacity on the rear axle.

https://commercial.firestone.com/co...015/FS_TBR_load-inflation-tables_web_2014.pdf

So to put a bow on it. Lower inflation on TV rear tires and get a Nylon lube plate!

BTW run 80 lbs in the TV front tires all the time. And have toe in set to 1/32" not the factory 1/4" to fix tire wear issues on the new RAM duallies.

Chris

SNOKING said:

In the video it appears the king pin and plate are raising up off the turn table. Also it appears that you are not using a Nylon lube disc. One of those will dampen the noise of the king pin plate coming back down on the turn table. And I would choose a different route. Also try to get pin weight higher. Also you could try towing in alt ride height on the RAM air suspension.

You are not running 80 lbs inflation in the rear dual tires on the TV are you? Setting the inflation to match the light load might help, the 65 lbs inflation for the duals is based on 9750 weight rating of the rear axle.

6500 on the rear axle only needs about 37.5 lbs inflation per tire for the load you are hauling. Try 40-50 lbs inflation in the rear tires. That provides 6900 to 8160 capacity on the rear axle.

https://commercial.firestone.com/co...015/FS_TBR_load-inflation-tables_web_2014.pdf

So to put a bow on it. Lower inflation on TV rear tires and get a Nylon lube plate!

BTW run 80 lbs in the TV front tires all the time. And have toe in set to 1/32" not the factory 1/4" to fix tire wear issues on the new RAM duallies.

Chris

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Chris,
Thanks for the update on the alignment. I do have a nylon lube plate on the king pin. When I reload the trailer this spring I will grab another weight and see how everything looks, when loaded fully my estimate on pin weight is going to be close to 2700 lbs which still could be a bit light according to what I'm told. The hard part is that my trailer was made this way. I haven't changed a thing and I wonder if this is part of what caused some of my other problems. I can always have a heavy steel plate made to go up in the closet to add weight but I don't know what that will do to the frame. I wrote heartland a long email detailing my issue. We will see what happens.

Route has nothing to do with any type of transition that is significant enough to upset the balance. This is on any North American road you travel. It may not necessarily be a transition but a severe dip in the road on any road where the truck goes up or goes down and than the trailer gets kicked up or down.

The trucks tires are run normally at max pressure 75 to 80 psi and tire wear is even. That is typically what I have always done even in over the road tractors. I also want to point out that I have air leveling suspension on the truck and I ride at alt Height which is an inch lower. The truck is riding on the air bags which are nitrogen filled

I must say that it is really hard to describe what I hear and feel to others.

To all,
I would like to say that I have been part of this wonderful group for a few years now. Everyone here has taken their time to assist me with dealing with our issues to the best of their ability and I greatly appreciate it. Unfortunately it's starting to wear me down. You can see from my very first post that nothing has been very easy and then to my most recent problem which I did not air on this forum. Heartland did take care of them and did an excellent job doing it, but I have to wonder if they are going to come back. I would really love getting through a season without something major breaking.

Bones said:

The trucks tires are run normally at max pressure 75 to 80 psi and tire wear is even. That is typically what I have always done even in over the road tractors. I also want to point out that I have air leveling suspension on the truck and I ride at alt Height which is an inch lower. The truck is riding on the air bags which are nitrogen filled

I must say that it is really hard to describe what I hear and feel to others.

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I believe over inflated tires are contributing to your issue. Running 75 to 80 in dual rear wheels with only 6500 on the rear axle is not allowing the tires to absorb some of the hits you are taking. Look at your placard in the door jam. It should list 65 lbs inflation for the fully loaded rear axle at 9750 lbs. You are a ton and a half plus below that load!! At 75 lbs inflation you rear axle/tires are capable of 10740 pounds and 80 lbs 11340. Bring the rears down to at least 50 pounds and give it a try, you might be amazed at the difference that will make. I linked a standard inflation table in the earlier post. Note on inflation tables. The Firestone table for LT235/80R17E will be the same on all other tire brands, as it is and industry standard table across all manufacturers.

Even tire wear has nothing to do with your issue and having your tires way over inflated for the load. If you do not believe me call the tire manufactures CS line and talk to them about it.

Chris

Keep in mind I had this same problem with the 2500 as well. This just happened to be the very first time I was actually able to capture it.

Re: Reese Elite issues, asking opinions

Bones said:

found that our trailer was made with a 15% pin weight from the factory. that it's empty weight was 13000 lbs and pin weight 2020 lbs. So I am at an impasse because I don't know if the trailer was designed without enough pin weight but I have been having this issue with the trailer for some time now but only was recently able to capture what exactly is happening.

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So, your one trailer was 'made' to meet specs that go against a standard for the towable industry?

Conventional aka bumper pull trailers, tongue weight of 10-15% of total trailer weight.

5th wheel pin weight of 20-25% of total trailer weight.

The physics don't change just because a manufacturer thinks they can change it.

When you were doing all that bouncing down the road to Elkhart, did you ever give a try of swinging the back end of the trailer, the quick left - right with the steering wheel that some people have been known to do to get the attention of other drivers?

If so, did it recover correctly?

Neat little video on the effects of incorrect tongue weight.

Duane can you point me in the right direction as to where that standard is. I have not found much from official published standards yet. Here is what was advertised.



The only thing I have found so far as coming close to official is in the SAE J2807 Feb 2016 under

4.4.2.5 Trailer Tongue/Kingpin weight(Fifth wheel or Gooseneck Trailers)

In this document is the only place I have found a mention about pin weight and it's at 15%


As for your wag the dog I had first hand experience in an emergency maneuver and I don't care to repeat it as we almost lost our lives. I choose my odds at surviving were better to flip the trailer and truck than to run straight in the side of a tractor trailer at 55 MPH who for some reason decided to pull across a 4 lane highway directly in-front of me. This lead to my purchase of a Dash cam and to finally capturing this movement.

I didn't flip but I was white as a ghost for awhile as I sat on the side of the road.

That video is an awesome tool and should be promoted more to the design engineers.

Well for starters, you can look at Dave Gray's site.

http://fifthwheelst.com/fifth-wheel-weight-calculator.html (25%)

Or your owners manual lists a maximum of 5000 pin for a 25000 trailer (20%)
page 545

Or The Ram Trucks Towing Guide

Or Cookie's comments, never disputed.

Or etrailer

http://bfy.tw/FVaG

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Bones said:

View attachment 55803

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I look at your specs here and see numbers geared towards attraction of the 250/2500 crowd.

I still think the easiest thing for you to do next season is put some weight in the front of the trailer to get to 20% and see how it rides.

Or, you could go out and get an air ride hitch, then as the nose of the trailer bounces up from being to light, the air ride hitch will keep that gap to a minimum.

Put some weight on.

porthole said:

Well for starters, you can look at Dave Gray's site.

http://fifthwheelst.com/fifth-wheel-weight-calculator.html (25%)

Or your owners manual lists a maximum of 5000 pin for a 25000 trailer (20%)
page 545

Or The Ram Trucks Towing Guide

Or Cookie's comments, never disputed.

Or etrailer

http://bfy.tw/FVaG

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I look at your specs here and see numbers geared towards attraction of the 250/2500 crowd.

I still think the easiest thing for you to do next season is put some weight in the front of the trailer to get to 20% and see how it rides.

Or, you could go out and get an air ride hitch, then as the nose of the trailer bounces up from being to light, the air ride hitch will keep that gap to a minimum.

Put some weight on.

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This is all very good and I'm not disputing it. However the industry uses specifications to build things. There has to be a specification like SAE, IEST, NFPA, CFR, and so on that industry uses otherwise they are going to be all over the board and that appears to be the case. It does sound like my pin weight is too low and my comfort and ride are suffering. Another issue I'm going to run into is. The trailer was made without sufficient pin weight because axles were moved forward means I'll have to add weight which takes away from my total load capacity which could potentially lead me to go over weight and lead to other problems. Woo Hoo. Gotta love this.

Bones said:

This is all very good and I'm not disputing it. However the industry uses specifications to build things. There has to be a specification like SAE, IEST, NFPA, CFR, and so on that industry uses otherwise they are going to be all over the board and that appears to be the case. It does sound like my pin weight is too low and my comfort and ride are suffering. Another issue I'm going to run into is. The trailer was made without sufficient pin weight because axles were moved forward means I'll have to add weight which takes away from my total load capacity which could potentially lead me to go over weight and lead to other problems. Woo Hoo. Gotta love this.

Click to expand...

Hey Bones,
I had the same issue with my rig back when I had my dually. When I fist got my 3650BH I used my old F250 to haul it. It was perfect, very smooth over transitions. Then I got the dually, the ride was awful and transitions would jar your teeth out, just like your video. A few months back I got a 17 F350 long bed SRW and it is much better (but still not as smooth as my old F250 was). It seems like the heavier the rear suspension is the worse this problem is.

I to wonder about the factory PIN weight ratio being to light. Last I weighed I was at 2450lbs pin and 14,215lbs total.

Also, the curt Q20 hitch I use is very tight so I really don't know if hitch has much to do with this issue.

justafordguy said:

Hey Bones,
I had the same issue with my rig back when I had my dually. When I fist got my 3650BH I used my old F250 to haul it. It was perfect, very smooth over transitions. Then I got the dually, the ride was awful and transitions would jar your teeth out, just like your video. A few months back I got a 17 F350 long bed SRW and it is much better (but still not as smooth as my old F250 was). It seems like the heavier the rear suspension is the worse this problem is.

I to wonder about the factory PIN weight ratio being to light. Last I weighed I was at 2450lbs pin and 14,215lbs total.

Also, the curt Q20 hitch I use is very tight so I really don't know if hitch has much to do with this issue.

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Do you have a way to video yours? I would agree that the suspension does play a small roll to help upset the balance condition but I don't think it takes a lot. I think my hitch is part of this issue as well. I have been investigating the Anderson hitch and a B&W hitch for the truck. Just more money to spend and it is a bit annoying. That money could have been used for camping. Your pin weight is not that much heavier than mine. Are you fully loaded?

I may be able to rig something up to video it but it will be a few months before my next trip.

I'm fully loaded but about a week at a time is our longest trip so we are never real heavy.

This issue was so bad with the dually I would have to slow down to 30 mph on several bridges between Tallahassee and the beach. With the new truck I don't have to slow down but the problem is still there just not near as bad.

justafordguy said:

I may be able to rig something up to video it but it will be a few months before my next trip.

I'm fully loaded but about a week at a time is our longest trip so we are never real heavy.

This issue was so bad with the dually I would have to slow down to 30 mph on several bridges between Tallahassee and the beach. With the new truck I don't have to slow down but the problem is still there just not near as bad.

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Thats ok. No prob. If you get a video you get one if not we have a video proving what is going on with our campers. I wonder if that is one of the reasons they stopped making the trailer. Even the new Traveler has a heavier pin weight than we do. I'm playing with numbers now to see the practicality of adding weight to the pin with steel and it is ridiculous. You loose either way.

I need to get to storage to take measurements of the axle placement in relation to the pin so I can determine a center of weight and see how much the axles would have to be moved to get a higher pin weight.

Yeah I think moving the axles would be a better solution because adding more weight will just put more stress on the whole rig.

justafordguy said:

Yeah I think moving the axles would be a better solution because adding more weight will just put more stress on the whole rig.

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I'm curious to see how much the axles would have to move to make a difference but then I I were to change axles that would absolutely void everything. We only have a few inches of movement and I already know some one who had their axles moved and it has unfortunately been a nightmare for them.

@Bones...

I didn't notice in the thread but pardon me if I missed it...can you try towing with your fresh water tank full of water to see if the increased pin weight will affect you issue?

Good Luck!!!

WB