Build Quality

[JohnDar]

The mess left behind the walls is disappointing, to be sure. But the lack of foresight in where items are placed is another. If I had not relocated my converter early on, the crappy plastic anti-siphon valve hidden in the wall above it's original location would have created a disaster when it decided to spew water down the wall. Guess I was lucky they didn't put it behind the access port in the shower stall. Then it would have killed the furnace.

 

[sengli]

I guess the mess behind the walls doesnt bother me that much, I can easily figure out how and where everything in there works and goes. The placement of the power converter, directly under the anti-siphon plumbing wasnt good though. The over all build mentality with these rigs, in general does bother me. I still feel the bang for the buck with heartland was the best, thats why I am on my second fiver from them. All the manufactures slap these rigs together way too fast. Would I wait longer to get a better quaility product, if I ordered one....Yes.

 

[cookie]

Would I wait longer to get a better quaility product, if I ordered one....Yes.

Would you also pay several thousand dollars more for that?

There was a mention of automotive manufacture. Trucks and cars are built by robots. They don't care how many hours or how fast they work, they just keep going with little to no error.

I recently remodeled my 30 year old house and when I pulled some drywall I found a lot of construction debris like scraps from everything stuffed between the walls. Had to cut a hole in the basement floor, found plywood, beer cans and some unrecognizable stuff.

It's not only the RV industry.

Peace
Dave

 

[oscar]

An industry insider - Management - told me that the day's requirement - manufacturer so many units - once the plant mets it goal assembly personnel go home, should you work quickly and met your goal it could be a short day with full days pay. Doesn't encourage quality craftsmanship.

I had a conversation with a successful professional (not in the RV industry) that was born and raised in the Elkhart community and knows many of the manufacturers. He told me the same thing.

Tight is good, stripped is better.

Yes, I would pay a few thousand extra for some more attention to detail and some overkill where it really matters.

 

[EPaulikonis]

This thread is sad. It highlights why America is a second rate nation in the world today. The whole mantra of "we suck less" than the next builder is a sorry perspective to bring to the market. Guess the attitude is why we lose manufacturing jobs overseas daily...they can perform the same poor craftsmanship for a fraction of the cost.

Small changes like protecting holes cut through wood or other materials to run wiring is a small step to craftsmanship and quality. I have openings in the coach I've found that look like a gopher chewed through the plywood to run electrical wiring. No preventive measures at all to avoid chaffing and potential fire hazards. I know, a S&B may be similar, but it's not a rolling earthquake moving down the highway either. I fix what I can find and see, but what about the spaces I can't access easily or at all?

Even if you can't find skilled, reliable, drug-free labor to do the build, it doesn't explain how a critical electrical component ends up being installed directly beneath a water hazard with high-failure rates. The design approach, at the very least, could use a serious Quality overhaul. That wouldn't fix the craftsmanship on the line, but it sure would eliminate some significant problems in the design layout of the coaches rolling off Heartland's factory.

One thing I can control is my decision to purchase and I know I'll be looking at the purchase process differently the next time around.

 

[Lynn1130]

If I could find the photo that I took of the "warning" sticker that is posted inside right next to the front door of my rig I would post it. It is on upside down. Pretty much says it all.

 

[JohnD]

This is a shot from our previous 2013 Heartland Trail Runner TT . . .

Notice where the sticker shows where the backing plate is vs. where the TV ended up actually mounted to where the backer plate was actually found:



I used to live in Elkhart County back in the 70's and have many relatives who still live there.

Most of them have worked in the RV plants all of their working lives.

However, now most of them are out of the RV industry as the pay rates today (according to them) would be more like working at McDonald's back in the heyday of when they were considered 'skilled' in their craft of building RV's and being paid accordingly.

If that makes any sense . . .

 

[danemayer]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the unnamed company that has been running a very expensive experiment on build quality. They've dedicated a large building and do a thorough post-manufacturing inspection of every unit to ensure the highest quality. They admit this costs them an enormous amount of money, but they express confidence that consumers will respond by purchasing their products. No mention of how it affects competitive pricing.

And of course even with their stated approach, there's no telling what you'd find behind the basement wall or behind a cover plate.

On their owners forum it takes less than 60 seconds to find comments like: "I just keep getting more and more worried as I read about all these problems." Sounds like every brand.

Will their approach eventually work? Will they quietly go back to the old less expensive approach? Will other manufacturers follow their lead? Will buyers pay attention?

Jury's still out. But since there are a bunch of people on this thread who profess they would respond to an approach like this, yet don't seem aware of it, I'd say it doesn't look like it's getting much traction.

 

[Bohemian]

Several thousand dollars more?

No way. That would only occur if construction was unplanned and each unit was done differently without any pre-construction units or modern manufacturing techniques.

It could be less expensive if planned well.

Considering warranty costs, even more so.

 

[EPaulikonis]

Sounds like SOB approach is flawed too. Post-manufacturing inspection is bad $$ after good $$. The Twenty-four dedicated quality control technicians combing over 200 PDI inspection points on the exterior and interior of the coach to test for, pinpoint and fix any flaws is a Band Aid on a sucking chest wound. It doesn't add quality, it just fixes what was broken during the build. Even HL does some quality checks post-manufacturing that has limited benefit. Doesn't mean it's a quality built coach, but rather they verify the integrity of a single unit.

Quality begins in the concept stage and flows throughout until a product is delivered. Quality is also not an event or a result, but a culture that needs to be cultivated within the company. Build x-units and call it a day is a major industry-wide failure from a quality perspective. Quotas have always been an adversary of quality on production lines and even a focused PDI at the plant isn't going to resolve poor quality.

I'm surprised no one has brought up the unnamed company that has been running a very expensive experiment on build quality. They've dedicated a large building and do a thorough post-manufacturing inspection of every unit to ensure the highest quality. They admit this costs them an enormous amount of money, but they express confidence that consumers will respond by purchasing their products. No mention of how it affects competitive pricing.

And of course even with their stated approach, there's no telling what you'd find behind the basement wall or behind a cover plate.

On their owners forum it takes less than 60 seconds to find comments like: "I just keep getting more and more worried as I read about all these problems." Sounds like every brand.

Will their approach eventually work? Will they quietly go back to the old less expensive approach? Will other manufacturers follow their lead? Will buyers pay attention?

Jury's still out. But since there are a bunch of people on this thread who profess they would respond to an approach like this, yet don't seem aware of it, I'd say it doesn't look like it's getting much traction.

 

[Jim-Lynn]

We have owned many trailers from travel trailers to 5th wheels - and ALL of them did have some minor issues. I agree with Dan, the plumbing and electrical wires are hidden & I do not see them & everything works leave it alone. Before purchasing our Cyclone we had a new motor coach, for 18 months, and it was a LOT more money and it fell apart, from slide out motors, the front nose de-laminated from the coach , and on and on. I feel our Cyclone, for 1/3 of the value of the motor coach has better quality.
Jim

 

[oscar]

We have owned many trailers from travel trailers to 5th wheels - and ALL of them did have some minor issues. I agree with Dan, the plumbing and electrical wires are hidden & I do not see them & everything works leave it alone. Before purchasing our Cyclone we had a new motor coach, for 18 months, and it was a LOT more money and it fell apart, from slide out motors, the front nose de-laminated from the coach , and on and on. I feel our Cyclone, for 1/3 of the value of the motor coach has better quality.
Jim

Well, you just made the "we suck less" point.

The bottom line is that the industry puts out a product that could be a lot better. And, what's getting us all aggravated about it is that it would take the same, or occasionally slightly better materials, and the same amount of time in planning and execution to do it right.

The issues I am finding are, mostly, all easily avoidable.

If the thing was half of what I paid for it and I was told to expect to throw it away in ten years I would be less annoyed.

For the money I paid and the "space age technology" aura which is covering up a whole lot of bad engineering and execution I feel like I now need to take a shower.

Again, not directed at Heartland per se. Most manufacturers are guilty.

 

[danemayer]

For everyone who is a true believer that quality is free and that customers are willing to pay a little more for higher build quality (if it's not actually free), and that workers need to take their time and show pride in their product, etc., etc. - here's what I can't reconcile.

There's a ton of money to be made in the RV industry, as evidenced by the continuing parade of startups, and acquisitions, and new products, and innovation. How is it that no one is stepping up? If doing what you're suggesting is so obviously good for both customers and manufacturers, how come the manufacturers aren't doing it?

 

[Shortest Straw]

If doing what you're suggesting is so obviously good for both customers and manufacturers, how come the manufacturers aren't doing it?

It really does just come down to that question doesn't it?

 

[trading-time]

I am Saying " AMEN " to EPaulikonis, can't say much better than that.

 

[Bones]

I would like to just say one thing that I don't know if anyone is taking into account and one huge factor that weighs in on these RV's is weight. "Did you see what I did there"........."weighs in".......ha..... One of the areas that could use improvement would be the frames our campers sit on. But to build a better frame you need to add weight because it is steel unless you come up with a strong uni-body type camper or aerospace material which adds to price. You add too much weight and now your in commercial territory. Ciao Did I just add to the Brown storm brewing around here. ha. Pass me a beer....or maybe a drink.:angel::angel::angel:

 

[oscar]

Yes, with the "arms race" to bring the square footage and amenities people have come to expect.... (and we're guilty with our 45 foot monsters) whilst still being able to be pulled by a "pickup truck" even if it IS a 3500 or 450 dually the manufacturers have worked themselves into a "weight savings at all cost" (yours and mine) corner.

So, in that way we deserve what we get.

When I look at quality fivers the same size I'm seeing GVWR's of 23K........

Maybe the real answer lies in an affordable and comfortable MDT to pull a better trailer.....

The unibody idea is interesting.

 

[Bohemian]

Why not build better if it costs less?

Because it is not done with current standard known building techniques and processes within the rv industry.

Importing new techniques from other industries is an expense and a risk. Even it it would eventually improve quality and reduce cost.

Further, if one makes the investment and it works, competitors will quickly copy, eliminating the competitive advantage.

Change is the hardest thing to do.

 

[tinner12002]

I'm sorry but there is no excuse for poor build quality. I've been through several factories in northern IN and have been disgusted with watching how they are built. The workers run while carrying parts, they hop all around the rv literally throwing the parts in place and then running to get the next piece of the puzzle all while trying to make that quota. Only 2 manufacturers I seen had a clean facility, non runners, bundled wiring and no quota, DRV and the new Weekend Warrior, neither of which are cookie cutter RVs!

 

[danemayer]

Only 2 manufacturers I seen had a clean facility, non runners, bundled wiring and no quota, DRV and the new Weekend Warrior, neither of which are cookie cutter RVs!

DRV's price points are quite a bit higher. So if you're willing to pay a few tens of thousands of dollars for the level of build quality that you expect, the choice is available to you. Interestingly, DRV was about to go out of business not too long ago and was purchased by Thor and is now part of the Heartland Management Team.

We can all speculate on why DRV was in financial ruin at the very same time as a bunch of new companies were springing up.

Btw, a few years ago I saw Landmarks and DRVs next to each other at an RV show. The DRVs had several features that outshone the Heartlands. But I recall the sticker price difference being over $40,000. In my mind, the differences might have supported a $5-10,000 price difference. And that's with the DRV dealer highlighting all the DRV advantages.

How much is that sliding panel in the basement worth? The water manifold? A slightly nicer finish on the cabinets?