Suggestions needed for frozen fresh water tank

[ParkIt]

Yeah, it happened. Never happened before but I think we hit too many low temps and it seems the heating straps put on this summer didn't hold up.
I've kept a small space heater in storage space with the panel off the side so it was open to the underbelly (behind the UDC) and its stayed warm which might have 'tricked' the strips into not working...not really sure on that one. Checked it last night before going to bed, water was running, had the tank heater on and was getting hot water with good flow and no leaking.
Pump and all lines are fine so it has to be the tank 2/3 full of fresh water. Nope, no hose hooked up to the UDC which is why the tank has water in it.

So, with that huge blunder now I have to figure out how to thaw the tank though I haven't had time to take off the underbelly sheath or coreplast. I'm wondering if I boxed in the area under the rig where the tanks are and set a small heater in there to let it warm up slowly if I can save the tank and any longer lines running to it. Dumped water down the commode and kitchen sink...listening I can hear it running into the holding tanks no problem, pulled the levers and they drain. No leaking/dripping so far but I think its too cold for that so I wouldn't be able to see any water running out and the decking in the storage area is dry.

My best guess is to enclose the area below the tanks and run a space heater unless anyone has a better thought on that one.

*headdesk*

 

[JohnDar]

Might be more efficient if you cut a three-sided flap in the coroplast under the tank, if that's the way you're going, and direct the heat up into the belly.

Have you tried opening the tank drain and is there any flow? It might be possible to introduce hot water into the tank via the drain to warm up the contents if it's not blocked by ice.

 

[ParkIt]

The drain is frozen (wasn't last night) and pump is trying to draw water but can't. Gotta get to work soon so won't have time to cut a flap, will try warm water trick to see if that works.

 

[danemayer]

It may be the fresh water line to the pump that's frozen, rather than the fresh tank contents. Where the drain line tees into the fresh water line is especially susceptible. First thing I'd try is to make a couple of cuts through the coroplast where the drain line exits and use a hair dryer for 10 minutes to thaw any ice at that location.

If that doesn't clear it up, you can build an enclosure in an hour or two using duct tape and 1/2" or 3/4" 4x8' foam insulation boards from Lowes or Home Depot. Put the heater inside the enclosure and the area around the tanks will get very warm very quickly. I've done that with a ceramic disc heater on lowest possible output and the thermometer above the coroplast and insulation stays around 70F even with outside temps well below 0F.

 

[ParkIt]

Was wondering that too Dan but it wouldn't be fully blocked since water was running full 8 hrs ago with a heater on and the heater to the tank on. Was thinking about a hair dryer cutting a larger hole around the drain line exit with warm water into the tank from above, hoping the two will work for now.

Won't be able to build an enclosure until later today - we'll be lucky to hit 32 when it 'warms' up. Looking at teens for the next week which is why I put the space heater in and kept the tank heater on checking the gray/black water drains last night and dumped warm water in both gray and black holding tanks.

First time this has happened to me in 20 yrs, guess it was my time for something to go wrong.

 

[NWILSON]

Just a thought.....is there really water in the tank?

 

[ParkIt]

Think I'm making headway...the one weird thing with the unit is the bathroom heater vent kept dropping down into the storage/behind UDC area. Turned on the heater and ran that hose over the top of the tank, getting a trickle out of the drain underneath. Water pump is still dry (hope that didn't burn out though didn't hear it cycle constantly last night) but I can see daylight between the storage/UDC area under the bedroom & bathroom above the stairs over the top of the tanks underneath out to the back of the coroplast where it drops to the back of the unit. Seems that didn't get sealed back up properly or going from the high temps this summer to now cold could have caused it but that will have to be sealed up too.

Question: at the bottom of the UDC from behind there is a T, one line to water heater, one to the UDC and one to the fresh fill. I'm wondering if the "winterize" hose is the culprit at freezing up (oh, the irony) though the only line that feels cold to the touch is the one running to the water holding tank...and no, don't have time to take a picture but hope you know which ones I'm talking about. Sooo, since that is at the bottom of the UDC would putting warm water in the tank even matter at this point?

Thanks and headed back out to try to keep thawing it...

 

[danemayer]

When water in the fresh tank drain hose (below the coroplast) freezes, the ice wicks its way up the line to the tee. It takes only a small amount of ice at the tee to stop water from getting to the pump.

The heater in the storage area may not be doing much for your fresh water tank depending on where the tank is located. Ours is over the axles and heat from the storage area in front doesn't get back very far.

 

[danemayer]

Question: at the bottom of the UDC from behind there is a T, one line to water heater, one to the UDC and one to the fresh fill. I'm wondering if the "winterize" hose is the culprit at freezing up

Are you sure the third line goes to the fresh fill. On 2011 trailers, I think you probably have a "gravity fill" hose to the fresh tank. It's about 1-1/4" diameter. The water heater bypass valve would have 3 pex lines (or 1/2" flexible braided hose) attached, but the fresh water fill is not involved there. The 1-1/4" diameter hose attaches directly to the back of the UDC.

 

[ParkIt]

Just a thought.....is there really water in the tank?

Yes, filled it couple of weeks ago in anticipation of cold weather, have only used the commode a few times and the sink as well. It is probably more than 2/3 full but that's whats showing on the idiot gauges.

When water in the fresh tank drain hose (below the coroplast) freezes, the ice wicks its way up the line to the tee. It takes only a small amount of ice at the tee to stop water from getting to the pump.

The heater in the storage area may not be doing much for your fresh water tank depending on where the tank is located. Ours is over the axles and heat from the storage area in front doesn't get back very far.

I'm just figuring that out now and wondering what tank is just above the drop in the UDC area. Could be the bath sink & shower but its hard to follow the lines since the floor is in the way. Still trying to figure that out. It looks like the fresh water fill lines run further back over the axles like yours, I think the HL/BH/BC are all like that?

Are you sure the third line goes to the fresh fill. On 2011 trailers, I think you probably have a "gravity fill" hose to the fresh tank. It's about 1-1/4" diameter. The water heater bypass valve would have 3 pex lines (or 1/2" flexible braided hose) attached, but the fresh water fill is not involved there. The 1-1/4" diameter hose attaches directly to the back of the UDC.

Checked again, it does look like that is the gravity fill and they are all pex under there...half tempted to change it to braided just not today.

The tank finally un-froze so I'm wondering if I should drain them like last year, I really don't want to run winterizer in them plus having water is kinda nice but I can get buckets of water if I need to from the house. Not a fun thought.
Either way I'm going to have to drop the coroplast and get that tank and lines insulated properly - this has never happened before and I don't want to chance it happening again.

 

[danemayer]

Take a look at our Water Systems Guide. Page 6 has a diagram of the water system. It's not exact for everyone because there are so many floorplan variations, but should be pretty close for LM, BH, BC.

When you open the coroplast in the rear section, you may find the fresh water line is in contact with frame cross members. That's another likely freeze point. Once in there, adding insulation is not too hard. You may want to also add heat tape to the fresh line while in there.

If water's running again, it was probably just the water line that froze, and not the tank, especially if you have tank heaters.

 

[DonnyB007]

Yeah, it happened. Never happened before but I think we hit too many low temps and it seems the heating straps put on this summer didn't hold up.
I've kept a small space heater in storage space with the panel off the side so it was open to the underbelly (behind the UDC) and its stayed warm which might have 'tricked' the strips into not working...not really sure on that one. Checked it last night before going to bed, water was running, had the tank heater on and was getting hot water with good flow and no leaking.
Pump and all lines are fine so it has to be the tank 2/3 full of fresh water. Nope, no hose hooked up to the UDC which is why the tank has water in it.

So, with that huge blunder now I have to figure out how to thaw the tank though I haven't had time to take off the underbelly sheath or coreplast. I'm wondering if I boxed in the area under the rig where the tanks are and set a small heater in there to let it warm up slowly if I can save the tank and any longer lines running to it. Dumped water down the commode and kitchen sink...listening I can hear it running into the holding tanks no problem, pulled the levers and they drain. No leaking/dripping so far but I think its too cold for that so I wouldn't be able to see any water running out and the decking in the storage area is dry.

My best guess is to enclose the area below the tanks and run a space heater unless anyone has a better thought on that one.

*headdesk*

i would bring your whole unit inside a garage, car wash, RV dealer, car dealer etc and let everything heat up to thaw out your tank and lines. Then winterize your unit and forget about using your water system until you have a chance to really think out your situation. You may get lucky and not have split anything so far. But make haste to a garage of some sort, rent out a big propane building heater if you have to, but get it thawed out fast.

 

[brianharrison]

I am thinking along the same lines as Dan and it sounds like the line from the fresh water tank to the pump suction that has frozen. It will freeze first, then the fresh water tank. Newer Yeti/Canadian Artic Packages provide the heat traced/insulated fresh water line from the tank to where it enters into the heated basement. Mine does not (circa early 2011 model) and I have had situations in cold overnight temps where the pump cannot draw water from the fresh water tank. As the temp warms up, it resolves itself.

Brian

 

[DonnyB007]

Take a look at our Water Systems Guide. Page 6 has a diagram of the water system. It's not exact for everyone because there are so many floorplan variations, but should be pretty close for LM, BH, BC.

When you open the coroplast in the rear section, you may find the fresh water line is in contact with frame cross members. That's another likely freeze point. Once in there, adding insulation is not too hard. You may want to also add heat tape to the fresh line while in there.

If water's running again, it was probably just the water line that froze, and not the tank, especially if you have tank heaters.

i see you have things pretty much resolved. One thing my dad did in addition to the Yeti type packages was to keep a 120 V light bulb going in the small enclosed space where the water pipe went into our mobile home. Between that light bulb and heated wire around the intake water pipe he never had any freezing of water pipes in the winter. Oh and that water pipe space was very well insulated too.

Anyways, good luck.

 

[ParkIt]

It took most of the day but its done for now. Didn't have time to take pictures of the hydraulic line bolted right through the coroplast just a few inches from the cut out for the sewer drain and that is not going to come off easy. Suffice to say I'm pretty sure someone at the factory didn't want little critters getting in and took their job seriously with glue and expanding foam. It took the two of us to get it off the front where gray 1 and black sit (which stay warmed) and put up sheets of compressed styrofoam with insulation tucked up and around lines that led out to the fresh water tank. Gray 2 must sit behind that because the valve was still not opening to drain and we could see the lines running back there...its really odd but that would be right under the kitchen sink. That part of the coroplast is not going to come off easy - at all. We did get it open enough to stuff insulation around the lines all the way up to the front then styrofoam sheets between the tanks and coroplast. Buttoned it up and called it good for now, everything is flowing and the inside temp rose 7º even though the outside temps dropped and I didn't change the heater settings. I got skirting up from the entry steps all around to the UDC on the other side...I couldn't find the rest until I called my son and asked, yep, he 'reminded' me he 'borrowed' it to cover his shed roof with this summer and since he's a plumber it's still on his roof and he won't have time to get it down because these are the long days with plenty of overtime. Yea! (sarcasm). We rolled out some taller skirting which we'll put up tomorrow but for now its holding and I'm a bit surprised by that.

It's supposed to get colder still next week so I'll probably drain the tanks and leave until it gets above 32º high peak daytime. This has been more than I like during the short, bone chilling days of winter!

Oh! There weren't any heat strips on the tank and lines which baffled me until I re-checked my email: this spring when it had to go in for repair after the tow driver dropped it on his bed, the shop I had it at was going to install them but (and I'm laughing), "that's a mess...we got the front cap off and re-attached, the slides adjusted, all the lines blown out but wow, we just don't have the manpower right now". It was May/June when everyone is slammed here so I didn't think twice about it but was kinda baffled today looking at all the brass fittings on all the water lines behind the UDC. Guess Rob forgot to tell me he replaced those instead as I had mentioned it was something I wanted him to do end of summer. He didn't charge me for it and didn't mention it which is why I like him to take care of it.
April. As soon as the snow melts on the pass its headed back to him for anything this winter does to it!

 

[ParkIt]

I am thinking along the same lines as Dan and it sounds like the line from the fresh water tank to the pump suction that has frozen. It will freeze first, then the fresh water tank. Newer Yeti/Canadian Artic Packages provide the heat traced/insulated fresh water line from the tank to where it enters into the heated basement. Mine does not (circa early 2011 model) and I have had situations in cold overnight temps where the pump cannot draw water from the fresh water tank. As the temp warms up, it resolves itself.
Brian

That was the section that had frozen, by Dan pointing out the drain being a weak point it led me to check that. Warmed it up with a blow dryer and the entire stem in a bin of warm water. Now its wrapped with 4" thick insulation and taped off. lol

Gray 2 valve un-thawed as well soon as we got insulation shoved around it mid-day @ 32º. It's fully drained as are all the tanks aside from a gallon of winterize in each tank.

 

[TravelTiger]

Low-point drains were our nemesis in Colorado a few years ago. We removed them from the kitchen lines, and then we moved the cut-off on the fresh tank drain up, and have a flexible hose after the cut-off, so it is within the underbelly. We have a small 4X4 cutout flap in the coroplast that is taped-up... But there to access it when we need to... otherwise it stays within the belly.

We added heat "pads" from Ultraheat to the lines to the kitchen sink, since these were the farthest from the underbelly heat source, and the also to the line between the fresh tank and the pump. We also added a tank heating pad on the fresh tank.

Our fresh fill is gravity fed, white corrugated 1-1/4 like mentioned in previous posts. We worked to remove sag in this pipe and added insulation between the pipe and any part of the frame.

Since doing so, we haven't had frozen pipes, even down to -11 in Breckenridge 2 years ago. Going again for the 2013 holidays.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ParkIt]

Low-point drains were our nemesis in Colorado a few years ago. We removed them from the kitchen lines, and then we moved the cut-off on the fresh tank drain up, and have a flexible hose after the cut-off, so it is within the underbelly. We have a small 4X4 cutout flap in the coroplast that is taped-up... But there to access it when we need to... otherwise it stays within the belly.

We added heat "pads" from Ultraheat to the lines to the kitchen sink, since these were the farthest from the underbelly heat source, and the also to the line between the fresh tank and the pump. We also added a tank heating pad on the fresh tank.

Our fresh fill is gravity fed, white corrugated 1-1/4 like mentioned in previous posts. We worked to remove sag in this pipe and added insulation between the pipe and any part of the frame.

Since doing so, we haven't had frozen pipes, even down to -11 in Breckenridge 2 years ago. Going again for the 2013 holidays.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good to hear you haven't had any further problems, sounds like you will have another good year coming up shortly

That was why we used two different insulation's - one to wrap ALL the lines making sure they weren't touching anything metal or have air pockets around them. Made it much easier to do the lines to the kitchen since they were close to the fresh water tank and furthest from the pump.
When the weather is better in...February (?) I want to shorten up the drain line like you have but great idea on the flexible hose instead, that thing has always bothered me how far it hangs down and 3' over from the tank.

We may do a heat pad on the tank itself since I don't see any easy way to do heat bands which only heat at the water level where its set and cut a flap in the coroplast to access it as well though we still plan to put more insulation further back under the living room considering how much it has warmed up and held heat from the kitchen island forward. Eventually everything will get re-done, can't help myself on that and a few here have posted their modifications which are pretty awesome.
For now I'm done, it was a long day in the cold getting it thawed then insulated so it can wait until 45º which will seem like summer ☼

 

[Bob&Patty]

When you have time, drop not cut the coroplast. Find the 2" hose coming out of the heater plenum to heat the underbelly. Add more 2" flexable duct to it and run it down the frame (leftside} where the water lines are as far as the rear most tank. Block the open end of the duct and cut slits in the duct about every 8". You will never have frozen water lines or tanks again. Well that is when you run your heater. Also, if you have a heater duct exposed (metal) in your basement, drill a few hose in it to keep the basement warm. I used 1 3/4 PVC pipe to connect the 2 ducts together and the GOOD duct tape.

 

[ParkIt]

That will have to wait awhile, the coroplast is going to be hard to get off all the way with the sewer and hydraulic line in the way. Not sure how well it would work running back that far, it would probably be pretty cool air by the time it reached the lines and tank?
Good idea though, when its warmer we'll get something more permanent worked out.

So far its holding up, dropped 10º further last night (hit 17º) and water is running with the pump running normally as well. It's supposed to get colder, if the wind kicks up like they say I'll just drain it like we did last year though the temps are supposed to be back up in the 40's in a couple of days.

Kind of funny how a little more insulation is keeping more heat inside as well, there are more air pockets underneath than I thought.