Any opinion/feedback on Magnum 2812 Inverter/Charger?

[Ladiver]

I am seriously looking at adding an Magnum Energy inverter/charger to our Cyclone 3100. I have spoken to 2 shops that recommend and install them. The first one recommended the MM1212, but I think the MS2812 would be a better option. One of the dealers had each little part called out with line item pricing (which I really like) but everything seemed to be generic. The other dealer recommended all Magnum stuff and it seemed to be self contained in one unit, with the normal add-ons. So, the list below is what I am looking at. Eventually, we will add a solar panel or two to help charge the battery bank.



MMP250-60S - Mini Magnum Panel (link)
MS2812 - Interter/Charger (link)
ME-ARC - Remote Control (link)
ME-AGS-N - Auto Gen Start (link)
ME-BMK - Battery Monitor (link)
GPL-6CT (qty 2) - Lifeline Batteries, 6v 300 amp hour (link)

I have read many other posts about making sure that the loads are leveled between L1 and L2. I will make sure that the installer does ensure this. I also assume, if I were to wire one of the a/c's to the sub panel and remove the 3-way toggle switch, then I should be able to run all 3 a/c's any way I want???

My biggest concern about the Mini Magnum Panel is what I read in the manual on Page 59:

Appendix B – Using the MMP in a Mobile Application

The MMP Series is designed and approved for use in residential or commercial applications. It has been tested and listed to UL 1741, 2nd Edition (inverters, converters and controllers for use in Independent Power Systems) for use in the US; and is also certified to CSA C22.2 No. 107.1-01 (General Use Power Supplies) for use in Canada. The AC input and output neutral connections in the MMP are combined and are bonded to the internal ground bar. The bond from neutral to ground can be removed as neutral is bonded to ground from the primary AC source.

In a mobile application, the standards for safely wiring RV, truck, and marine installations in the United States requires the neutral and safety ground to be connected at the AC source; whether it is a shorepower feed, an inverter, or a generator. This maximizes the possibility that a circuit breaker will activate if a hotwire-to-ground fault occurs. These standards also require that the AC neutral be connected to safety ground (often called a “bond”) in one, and only one, place at any time. The single bond is established in order to make the electrical panel’s neutral line safe, by connecting it to ground. Without this bond, the neutral can have up to 60 VAC with respect to ground.

Because the neutrals are combined, if the MMP is used in a mobile application, more than one neutral to ground bond may be established, which can cause current to circulate between the multiple neutral to ground connections. This can cause “ground-loop” currents, which can trip GFCI’s, cause an electrical shock hazard, and may be the reason for other annoying side effects.

 

[scottyb]

This is a great looking system and one that I have my eyes on. What part concerns you? It says that the neutral - ground bond can be removed in mobile applications. They are bonded at the main shore panel.

 

[Ladiver]

Thanks scottyb. I know you have been looking at this for a while now, so I figured you would chime in! I guess I was concerned about the last paragraph where it says "multiple neutral to ground connections...can cause ground-loop" but I completely missed the sentence "the bond from neutral to ground can be removed."

Nevermind! I will go back to my donut and coffee this morning. Now I need to figure out when to do this? I would like to supply all the major parts (listed above) and have the shop do the install (including necessary wiring). Unfortunately, I know just enough about electrical to get "zapped" every once in a while. Electricity scares me, especially at 50 amp!

 

[porthole]

Jeff, If you are looking at Magnum, you are looking at the top of the game for recreational use. Why not use ALL magnum ancillary parts then?

MM1212 verus MS2812

You are already looking at considerable expense for "just an inverter". I'd be willing to bet the difference in cost of the two, that if you install the smaller unit, down the road you will be thinking "gee< I really should have installed the larger unit, but it is too much additional expense now"

Keep in mind the efficiency ratings. Magnums are very good, but still only 95% efficient, and that is at a set temperature with properly sized battery banks and supply cables.

The 1212 at 95% is about 1100 watts. If you are following the forum, there may be an issue with smaller inverter running just a residential fridge.
Also, the 1212 is a modified sine wave whereas the 2812 is a pure sine. That is something to think about but not all that critical with quality units. What i mean by that is there is a reason Magnums cost what they do and yet you can go to many stores and buy a 3000 watt inverter for under $300.

Many of your "sensitive" electronics are using some sort of power converter anyway, such as the power bricks for laptops etc.

Keep in mind the minimum wire size as well. Although 2/0 may be what is speced, for a few bucks more you would do quite well to go with 4/0

Just an FYI, I used to run a Heart Interface 2500 watt inverter (same quality - type as the Magnum's) in our first boat. Although the AC unit was smaller then what is on the RV's I had no trouble running it for a while off the batteries and indefinitely as long as the engines were running.

Another FYI, if you have a Progressive EMS - they are not suited for inverter use. So, the inverter would have to be wired after the P-EMS

I don't recall if the the 2812 is a 2 input 2 output or not. But that is something you may want to consider. The flexibility with 2 in/2 out is better.

 

[porthole]

And did you know that there is a hybrid model that will allow load sharing?

It uses the inverter as well as an other additional AC sources (such as utility or generator) to supply a sum of the sources for power. May be just the ticket to keep all 3 AC's running.

 

[Ladiver]

Thanks for the info Duane. I have heard you guys talking about the Hybrid systems and I think that would be great. Unfortunately, if I wanted to use the Mini Magnum Panel, I would have to use the MSH-RE series inverter. There is only one, and it is the MSH4024RE, which would be way more than what I need. Isn't it recommended to not go too far over your needs? I can handle some overkill, but double? I already think the 2812 would be overkill.

Ugh, now I may want that setup, due to efficiency of the inverter (MS and MSH are the same). Plus it is only a few hundred more than the MS2812 :-/ Where to stop??????

 

[porthole]

First I've seen that chart. If the 2812 drops to 80% under max load I wonder what he cheapos do that start at 80%

I don't know about the 2812 being overkill. My preference would be to have about double what I would normally use. Thinking that way, the 2812 is an excellent choice.

 

[aRAYwego]

I was one that had the problem with the 1000w inverter running my residential fridge. Heartland authorized a Magnum MS2012 and it works great. Still dont know all the ins n outs of this thing but will after reading up on it.

 

[Ladiver]

Duane,

I just spoke with Magnum, and they do not recommend the Mini Magnum Panel for RV use. They said it would have to have some wiring modifications. I have no idea what those would be. ?I guess I need to discuss with the shop that quoted it. They also said the MS2812 is a 2 in/2 out with 30amp each vs. the hybrid which is only 1 in/1 out but 60amp.

You seem to have done your homework. Which do you think would be better? What is the advantage of dual in/out?

 

[porthole]

My plan was for the 2 in 2 out as it would allow putting the inverter inline with the AC supply after the transfer switch.

That allows the equivalent of a battery back up for the entire coach and no need for a sub panel. Obviously one has to be aware of the limitations of this method. But it has worked for me in boating.

 

[Ladiver]

Well, I finally pulled the trigger. I got all of the Magnum equipment and the shop is doing the install this week!!!! I ended up with the MSH3021M with a Battery Monitor, Auto Gen Start and Advanced Remote Control. I look forward to being able to run on battery and not have to always be plugged in or on generator.

We are taking a trip to Paso Robles for 3 days of wine tasting. We are parking it on a flat plot of land with no hookups. I did not want to be that rude dude running the generator all the time. Now we can have the batteries to help us be good neighbors.

 

[scottyb]

Well, I finally pulled the trigger. I got all of the Magnum equipment and the shop is doing the install this week!!!! I ended up with the MSH3021M with a Battery Monitor, Auto Gen Start and Advanced Remote Control. I look forward to being able to run on battery and not have to always be plugged in or on generator.

We are taking a trip to Paso Robles for 3 days of wine tasting. We are parking it on a flat plot of land with no hookups. I did not want to be that rude dude running the generator all the time. Now we can have the batteries to help us be good neighbors.

Nice going. Can't wait to hear how you like it. That would be the dream shot for me. Maybe a couple solar panels and a controller to go with it.

 

[Bohemian]

What are the ways to avoid the obvious problem of making a perpetual motion machine that will drain the batteries very quickly, e.g. batteries supply the inverter which makes 110V which supplies the converter which charges the batteries?

 

[scottyb]

The inverted power never charges the batteries. The batteries are only charged when generator, shore, or solar power is available.

 

[Jim.Allison]

The easiest way to understand the neutral bonding is this. Your fiver is an appliance. On a 50 amp unit you have 4 wires coming in. 120v 120v a neutral and a ground these wires stay separate wherever they go through the rig. The white neutral and the bare copper are never on the same post or bar like you might find in a house. But they do get bonded on the pedestal.

The code states that there can be only one place for bonding, and in our case it is at the pedestal outside the rig.

But in the case of a generator the one place is inside the generator, and in the case of an inverter the one place is inside the inverter. Look at the generator and the inverter as APPLIANCES within an appliance. Just like a drill in your shop or a washer dryer at your house. There is a white neutral, a black hot and a green ground and they stay that way all the way to your breaker box, your fiver is no different.

This was not an issue in the Xantrex that I installed, the Magnum is very similar and I don't think it will be an issue there either. Their installation instructions should be very clear. You should quiz your installer about it and if their eyes glaze over and they cannot explain neutral bonding to you then you need to get another installer. Bonding the neutral within the rig will result in a shock hazard somewhere, somehow, someday.

This should not be an issue but you are right to be vigil about it anyway. Good luck.

 

[Bohemian]

Ok, so shore power is run through the generator and bonded there. Then through the inverter and bonded there.

 

[scottyb]

Not exactly. Shore power runs through the inverter and the inverter has it's own transfer switch. If you look at LADiver's 1st post in the Magnum diagram on the right, the neutral bond is to be removed if they are bonded at the source, which applies to RV's and boats.

 

[porthole]

I ended up with the MSH3021M with a Battery Monitor, Auto Gen Start and Advanced Remote Control.

If your gonna go - go big or go home!

Magnum is still the top notch for recreational use, although pricey, you do get what you pay for and there is a reason the Magnum's cost what they do. Although xantrex is remotely similar, their customer service is way off base and the equipment is not in the same league as Magnum.

Has your installer explained how he is doing the setup? The inverter you listed has a single input / output for the AC service (60 amp).
I wrote to magnum a week or so ago asking for some additional info with installing this unit in a 2 leg / 50 amp service RV and still be able able to maintain the load sharing feature.

My previous Heart Interface inverter was equipped with a 2 in 2 out (30 amp each) configuration and worked similar to a 5500 watt genny install.

Looking forward to your reports.

I am seriously thinking of getting our next trailer without the genny and instead use the funds to go with batteries and inverter, some solar and then rely on my 3000 watt Honda for use when needed.
The load sharing on these intelligent inverters should more then suffice for what our use has been for the past 10 years.

 

[porthole]

The inverter listed in your first post has two output breakers, one "bypass" and one "inverter" to supply your panel/s.

The new Magnum appears to have a single 60 amp output breaker.

 

[dave10a]

I use the 3kw modified sine wave inverter from Xantrex and it works fine for all my electronics-even the A/C if I want to recharge the batteries soon. Modified SW inverters work well for the stuff on most RV's like refrigerators, air compressors, microwaves,TV's and even air conditioners if you have the power capability. There may be a problem with electric clocks, desk top computer or other electronic that sense zero cross over of the sine wave. I love it when they say don't use modified sine wave for "sensitive electronics" but fail to explain what that really means.

I wired the Xantrex inverter to the transfer switch supplied in the full timers option for a generator. I also have 200 watt solar panels to keep the AGM batteries charged when not connected to shore power. This was the most cost effective way to go for me. However, one needs to be familiar with electrical codes and theory to do it yourself.