Battery Charging Problem

[6.7LMegaCab]

Hey all! I hope everyone is well!

A previous post I created was seeking recommendations for a new converter. I upgraded to the PD9260C converter with the remote.

Battery setup is 4x US Battery 2200 XC2 232AH

Prior to going to Colorado for some R&R at Mancos, everything seemed fine with the batteries. The only change I made was adding the Quick fill watering system and changed the cables to heavier gauge, shorter cables.

By day 3 of our camping trip, in the evening I noticed something wasn't right with the batteries not charging, despite running the generator all day long. By night time, I couldn't use the inverter (was only using it for recharging a couple phones) and there was enough juice to run the fridge on propane. By the next morning, low dc was displaying on the fridge.

The batteries seemed to have plenty of juice to start the generator though.

Fast forward home. Got the RV situated and plugged into shore power. After a couple days, batteries were still weak. Voltage check showed 12.6 volts. Yesterday I barely able to open the electric slide for the bedroom.

I ended up checking the water level and it was extremely low. Between the 4 batteries, it took in a 1/2 gal of distilled water.

Still no changes by yesterday. So, I opened up the basement compartment to run a voltage check on the converter. It was showing 13.6V.

I know the converter was working just fine over the camping trip because when the generator was running, the lights and other DC items worked just fine, therefore masking a possible charging issue.

These batteries are brand new, and this was the first trip they saw when I bought them in June. They hadn't even been through 1 full charge and recharge cycle.

Could the batteries be bad? Did I screw up by also topping them off? Could it be the converter?

Could there be an issue between the WFCO combined AC/DC panel where the converter connects through?

I'm really at a loss, but need to get this figured out.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide!

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[Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn]

Did you check the little black manual reset button on the side of the 50amp circuit breaker ?? If that is tripped you will have this issue. It will separate the batteries from the charge convertor.

 

[6.7LMegaCab]

I had no idea that was a thing... Checking now

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[6.7LMegaCab]

There aren't any 50A breakers. All 30A without a manual reset.

Not certain of any other locations.

Checked batteries again and they measured at 12.74V; individual batteries measured around 6.3V. This is after 24 hours constant charging, not to mention the past week prior to unplugging the converter to troubleshoot.

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[danemayer]

There aren't any 50A breakers. All 30A without a manual reset.

Not certain of any other locations.

Checked batteries again and they measured at 12.74V; individual batteries measured around 6.3V. This is after 24 hours constant charging, not to mention the past week prior to unplugging the converter to troubleshoot. Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Is that 12.74V with converter OFF, no solar, no tow vehicle? Sounds fully charged. What are you expecting?

 

[6.7LMegaCab]

Is that 12.74V with converter OFF, no solar, no tow vehicle? Sounds fully charged. What are you expecting?

Yes all off. I'm expecting the batteries to actually carry a load. Prior to leaving for my trip, the batteries read somewhere above 13v.

On Sunday, the bedroom slide had a hard time opening. Prior to all of this, all slides operated just fine. The built in LED battery charge status indicator shows the battery barely charged (2 LEDs, 1/3 charge I believe). When operating that slide the LEDs would nearly go out.





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[danemayer]

A couple of things:

• New batteries shouldn't need a bunch of water within a week or two, or even a month or two. Low water level is a sign that the Power Converter is doing something odd, like overcharging the batteries, boiling off the water.
• The 12V DC mini-circuit breaker in between the the batteries and the power converter should be a 50 amp and the OEM arrangement is to use a manual reset breaker - probably because the power flows when unattended and a manual reset breaker will avoid a more serious outcome if a failure occurs.
• The 12V DC mini-circuit breaker to the hydraulics pump should also be 50 amp, but an auto-reset breaker. A 30 amp breaker will probably trip repeatedly while using the hydraulics. The breaker will get weaker and weaker and trip even more easily.
• Some of the WFCO power centers that have a combined fuse box and circuit breaker panel also have a built in Power Converter. If yours does, have you rearranged the wiring so you don't have 2 Power Converters connected to the fuse box and batteries?

 

[6.7LMegaCab]

A couple of things:

• New batteries shouldn't need a bunch of water within a week or two, or even a month or two. Low water level is a sign that the Power Converter is doing something odd, like overcharging the batteries, boiling off the water.
• The 12V DC mini-circuit breaker in between the the batteries and the power converter should be a 50 amp and the OEM arrangement is to use a manual reset breaker - probably because the power flows when unattended and a manual reset breaker will avoid a more serious outcome if a failure occurs.
• The 12V DC mini-circuit breaker to the hydraulics pump should also be 50 amp, but an auto-reset breaker. A 30 amp breaker will probably trip repeatedly while using the hydraulics. The breaker will get weaker and weaker and trip even more easily.
• Some of the WFCO power centers that have a combined fuse box and circuit breaker panel also have a built in Power Converter. If yours does, have you rearranged the wiring so you don't have 2 Power Converters connected to the fuse box and batteries?

1. Yes I agree wholeheartedly! 6 years of having an RV, we've never experienced a problem like this. We've had our current rig for almost 3 years and never an issue. Why so much water is boiling off is beyond me. I talked to PD and they said it sounds like the converter is working correctly, so back to checking the circuit breakers.

1.1 One thing I don't recall checking is from battery negative to either side of the CBs. He said on the converter side of the CB, it should have the same voltage as what is coming directly off the converter.

2. I'm guessing Heartland went cheap and opted for only 30A circuit breakers. I can't find any other CBs for the life of me. I'll pull the AC/DC cover off this weekend to double check, but I don't recall seeing one behind there either. The hydraulics breaker do trip repeatedly which is quite annoying. So I definitely need to upgrade them as they trip more often then when I first got the rig. Is there any other place I can look for a manual reset circuit breaker? Is 50A plenty for the slides and converter to battery?

3. I checked the WFCO manual for the AC/DC breaker/fuse panel and it is simply a pass through for the converter to the batteries. No power management features. The positive lug(s) for the converter and battery are connected together. Alternative arrangement is to run the converter to the batteries and batteries to the panel.

Thank you for all the help so far. More testing to be done.

 

[danemayer]

The thick wires connected to the mini-circuit breakers are the giveaway. Power from the battery goes to the side of the breaker that has the copper buss bar that shares power across all breakers. There are usually 2 heavy cables on the other side of 2 of the breakers. One goes to hydraulics. The other to the fuse box and power converter.

On my 2011 LM, the fuse box positive terminals connect to both the Power Converter, and to the buss bar circuit breaker. Alternatively, you might find the multiple connections at the Power Converter as I think a Progressive Dynamics has 2 positive terminals.

If the thick wires at the buss bar are connected to 30 amp breakers, the most likely explanation is that a newbie on the manufacturing line just grabbed a bunch of breakers, not realizing there are different amp values. You need 50 amp breakers where the thick cables connect. Then if still having a problem with hydraulics starting and stopping, you might consider an upgrade.

As for your WFCO power center, what model is it?

 

[6.7LMegaCab]

The thick wires connected to the mini-circuit breakers are the giveaway. Power from the battery goes to the side of the breaker that has the copper buss bar that shares power across all breakers. There are usually 2 heavy cables on the other side of 2 of the breakers. One goes to hydraulics. The other to the fuse box and power converter.

On my 2011 LM, the fuse box positive terminals connect to both the Power Converter, and to the buss bar circuit breaker. <-- this is how mine is arranged. Alternatively, you might find the multiple connections at the Power Converter as I think a Progressive Dynamics has 2 positive terminals. <-- yes, there is two connections on the Progressive Dynamics - I am using one.

If the thick wires at the buss bar are connected to 30 amp breakers, the most likely explanation is that a newbie on the manufacturing line just grabbed a bunch of breakers, not realizing there are different amp values. You need 50 amp breakers where the thick cables connect. Then if still having a problem with hydraulics starting and stopping, you might consider an upgrade.

As for your WFCO power center, what model is it?

WFCO WF-8930/50 (mine is configured in the 50A configuration)


I need to figure out what cable from the AC/DC panel goes to the mini CBs. Super odd arrangement.

In the photo I posted. The CBs to the far right, the lower red cable is from the batteries. The next red cable to the left going up, connects to a manual shutoff switch on the other side of the wall. Moving left to the set of 5 CBs, the red cable on the copper bus bar comes from the other side of the manual shutoff switch. The two lower heavy red cables, I'm certain at least one goes to the hydraulic pump...the other probably goes to the converter...what a pain. Definitely not the configuration I would have settled for.

 

[danemayer]

WFCO WF-8930/50 (mine is configured in the 50A configuration)


I need to figure out what cable from the AC/DC panel goes to the mini CBs. Super odd arrangement.

In the photo I posted. The CBs to the far right, the lower red cable is from the batteries. The next red cable to the left going up, connects to a manual shutoff switch on the other side of the wall. Moving left to the set of 5 CBs, the red cable on the copper bus bar comes from the other side of the manual shutoff switch. The two lower heavy red cables, I'm certain at least one goes to the hydraulic pump...the other probably goes to the converter...what a pain. Definitely not the configuration I would have settled for.

That all sounds right. Don't overlook the right-most breaker on the far right. That should also be 50 amp.

 

[6.7LMegaCab]

Should the breaker for the converter more closely match the converter rating? So a 60A?

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[danemayer]

Should the breaker for the converter more closely match the converter rating? So a 60A?

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Even with 80 amp Converters on Landmarks and Bighorns, the breakers have mostly been 50 amp.

The manual reset breaker in between batteries and Power Converter is a frequent cause of problems. When it trips, you may not notice until things stop working. Some owners have theorized that if batteries are not fully charged and you operate the hydraulics, that to supplement the batteries, more than 50 amps may be pulled across that breaker, causing it to trip. But no one knows for sure.

 

[6.7LMegaCab]

Even with 80 amp Converters on Landmarks and Bighorns, the breakers have mostly been 50 amp.

The manual reset breaker in between batteries and Power Converter is a frequent cause of problems. When it trips, you may not notice until things stop working. Some owners have theorized that if batteries are not fully charged and you operate the hydraulics, that to supplement the batteries, more than 50 amps may be pulled across that breaker, causing it to trip. But no one knows for sure.

That makes sense. I'll upgrade to 50A on those circuits.... And I found the culprit. It is that CB to the far right that is connected directly to the battery. 13+ volts from the converter CB all the way to the right bus bar, then 12ish volts on the battery side.

Hopefully I can find something in town tomorrow, otherwise I'll get them on order.

Should only the battery have a 50A with manual reset or should a manual reset be used on both the converter and battery breakers?

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[danemayer]

The only manual reset is the one that connects the Power Converter to the batteries. Other breakers only pass power while you hold a switch to operate something. That one breaker passes power while unattended. So if something goes wrong, it requires a manual reset. At least that's my speculation on why it's a manual reset.

The breakers on the far right likely provide power to the emergency breakaway switch. You wouldn't want manual reset breakers there as if they trip, you wouldn't have emergency braking if the trailer broke free of the truck.

 

[6.7LMegaCab]

Yeah that would be bad. That's probably what that smaller red wire is for. I'm surprised it's not directly connected to the battery.

Thank you for all the help! I'm glad that's all it was and of course it had to stop working on our first trip out with new batteries and a new converter lol.



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[6.7LMegaCab]

Well, I'm a dummy. I decided to remove the CBs this morning to make certain that I was not reading the numbers incorrectly since the CBs are so close together. The converter, hydraulics, and battery are 50A breakers, all automatic though. The rest are 30A.

I'm going to just replace all of them and put a manual reset breaker on the converter.

If the hydraulic breaker keeps tripping, could it be that it is just weak or should that be upgraded? I read the Hydraulic Slide Starts/Stops manual from the HOM page and it seems to recommend to either replace or upgrade to an 80A based on a previous, but pulled, Lippert recommendation.

 

[danemayer]

Well, I'm a dummy. I decided to remove the CBs this morning to make certain that I was not reading the numbers incorrectly since the CBs are so close together. The converter, hydraulics, and battery are 50A breakers, all automatic though. The rest are 30A.

I'm going to just replace all of them and put a manual reset breaker on the converter.

If the hydraulic breaker keeps tripping, could it be that it is just weak or should that be upgraded? I read the Hydraulic Slide Starts/Stops manual from the HOM page and it seems to recommend to either replace or upgrade to an 80A based on a previous, but pulled, Lippert recommendation.

Be sure to replace the breakers at the far right. If any of them in the path are weak from tripping, that'll be the weak link.

Also, weak battery, dirty/corroded terminals, poor crimps, and loose connections will all contribute to breaker trips.

 

[6.7LMegaCab]

Be sure to replace the breakers at the far right. If any of them in the path are weak from tripping, that'll be the weak link.

Also, weak battery, dirty/corroded terminals, poor crimps, and loose connections will all contribute to breaker trips.

All of the connections are tight and clean! Since isolating that CB that connects directly to the battery (far right), the hydraulics seem to be working fine now. I'm now suspecting that breaker has been failing for a couple years now. After the last few days of allowing the charger to do it's job, the batteries are back to normal.

I decided to order 30A and 50A automatic breakers and a 50A manual to replace all of them shown in the picture.

Those that I haven't had any problems with, I'll just throw in the spare parts bin.

Thanks again for the assistance!