Brakes - Careful, You Might Get What You Asked For

[wdk450]

O.K. Gang:

I got the disk brake upgrade from MorRyde last summer. Today, I remembered noticing that some of the wheel weights were missing from the wheels (just the adhesive strip left). I had some time, decided to go to my tire guys, Les Schwab tires, who will do something like this for little or no cost since I got my tires there. Well they get the tires off the rig, then call me back into the shop and ask if I have noticed bouncing from the tires. I tell them the tires are 30 feet behind the cab of the truck, so I have no idea. Then they show me WHY they asked this - it seems that ALL 4 of the tires have multiple flat spots on the tread from evident skidding stops with the rig. I guess I had the controller turned up too much, and didn't know it - All I knew is that the rig seemed to stop a lot better.

Well, 4 new Geostars (this store still had them in stock) later, and $1200 added to the credit cards, I turned the controller down from 3.6 to 3.0 (dead stop, full brake applied) as I pulled out of the tire center. I guess I have to get a straight stretch of unused road, mark the tires with white tape, get an observer to watch the tires as I make hard stops, to set the controller right. This makes me start to want to press Kodiak and MorRyde for an ABS system so you can't lock them up.

 

[Majestic]

Hi Bill

just picked up my Landmark, controller set at 6 from pulling my old unit with electric brakes, dealer warned us about disc brakes, agree, we are down at 3 also.

Amazing stopping with the disc brakes.

 

[wdk450]

Well, if I want to throw more money at the braking problem, I found this company with a websearch, which has a trailer ABS system:
http://www.direclink.com/

 

[MrRvGypsy]

O.K. Gang:

I got the disk brake upgrade from MorRyde last summer. Today, I remembered noticing that some of the wheel weights were missing from the wheels (just the adhesive strip left). I had some time, decided to go to my tire guys, Les Schwab tires, who will do something like this for little or no cost since I got my tires there. Well they get the tires off the rig, then call me back into the shop and ask if I have noticed bouncing from the tires. I tell them the tires are 30 feet behind the cab of the truck, so I have no idea. Then they show me WHY they asked this - it seems that ALL 4 of the tires have multiple flat spots on the tread from evident skidding stops with the rig. I guess I had the controller turned up too much, and didn't know it - All I knew is that the rig seemed to stop a lot better.

Well, 4 new Geostars (this store still had them in stock) later, and $1200 added to the credit cards, I turned the controller down from 3.6 to 3.0 (dead stop, full brake applied) as I pulled out of the tire center. I guess I have to get a straight stretch of unused road, mark the tires with white tape, get an observer to watch the tires as I make hard stops, to set the controller right. This makes me start to want to press Kodiak and MorRyde for an ABS system so you can't lock them up.

Wow thanks for the heads up. I am going to MorRyde in 2 weeks for the upgrade to disc brakes. My controller is maxed at 10 for the current drum brakes so I will be very careful once the disc's are installed.

 

[JohnD]

When my trailer brakes lock up . . . I know it!

Not only do I hear them . . . but they jerk the truck substantially.

 

[caissiel]

When my drum brakes were causing lockup due to failed seals I could only see smoke from 3 wheels that were dragging and I had no brakes at all except the truck and one wheel. A really scary situation to be in. When tires are slipping its like being on ice.
That's the reason disc brakes need careful attention and adjustments.
They are actually better without antilock but in a panic situation everyone just stand on the brake paddle and the result is like braking on ice.
Today I had a panic stop and my drum brakes performed really well. In town I always drive at 55 and leave room. This time it worked well. But from what I was told about trailer disc brakes there would surely have been a reaction problem. The disc brake system as I was explained needs a moment to build up pressure. And 1 and 2 count would have put me in the rear of a few cars.
Again the weak point was my front tires that needed the antilock to kick in. Was I ever glad I had the 275/70/18 to help with traction.
It was my first close call since 8 years ago with a different truck and trailer.

A note
Smooth pavement seam to treat tires much better then course pavement. It happened to me with a truck with no front antilock brakes with trailer it ruined a perfectly new tire on an emergency stop.
But around the same area my trailer tires dragged on smooth pavement and it never effected the tires.

Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk

 

[Majestic]

Interesting comment on the delayed reaction time of the disc brake. I have had the misfortune of burning off a set of trailer tires in an emergency stop, cheaper than the alternative though.

i only have a few miles on the disc brakes and have tested them on various stop, not a hwy speed yet, noticed not so much of a delay as much as what i would call a lack of brake pressure. I am still working on the gain setting 0.1 at a time until i am comfortable. Like lots of new things in life, try and try again.

i know it is worth the investment, hopefully i never really need them again though.

 

[whp4262]

When I'm setting my controller I drive at about 10 to 15 MPH and use the paddle switch on the controller to activate the trailer brakes only. I set the gain just below where the tires lock on the trailer and make a slight adjustment up or down from there. Seems to work pretty well for me.

 

[Majestic]

Yes, good way to test setup. Not sure your vehicle type, with the GM controller, they had to add the extra magnet to make them work. Not sure if this affects the setup, but i think it would.

 

[porthole]

The disc brake delay is real but it is not a 1000-2000 count.
And it takes all of a couple miles to not even notice after you switch from drum brakes.

Trailer disc brakes use an electric motor to spin a hydraulic pump, so the "delay" is that pump building pressure. I have been in 1 or 2 "panic stops" since having the disc brakes, and pulling a heavy toy hauler I wouldn't trade them for any other type.

FYI, on the 2011+ Fords the trailer brakes are tied into the vehicles ABS system as well as the trucks "sway control" feature.
And below 11 mph the trailer brake output is reduced. This cuts down on the the trailer pull in stop and go traffic.

ABS, when pulling a trailer, has some effect on the trailer brakes. Not a true individual ABS, but a reduction in trailer braking.

For 2011+ the Ford factory TBC is a superior option to any of the aftermarket choices, as it is built in and covered under warranty. The FORD TBC, besides being tied in to the factory brakes, ABS and trailer sway, is controlled by hydraulic line pressure in the truck's brake system, not inertia.

Well, if I want to throw more money at the braking problem, I found this company with a websearch, which has a trailer ABS system:
http://store03.prostores.com/servlet/tusontrailerproducts/StoreFront

Bill, I don't see anything on your link that offers ABS for trailers?

From the 2011 Ford Owner's manual.

Tires, Wheels and Loading

• The TBC is equipped with a feature which reduces output at vehiclespeeds below 11 mph (18 km/h) so trailer and vehicle braking is notjerky or harsh. This feature is only available when applying the brakesusing the vehicle’s brake pedal, not the TBC.
• The TBC interacts with the brake system of the vehicle, includingABS, in order to reduce the likelihood of trailer wheel lock-up;therefore, if these systems are not functioning properly, the TBC maynot function at full performance.

From Trailer Life's towing guide, Ford:

Ford’s TBC System

As Ford was first to offer a factory-installed brake controller in the tow vehicle, let’s look at its system. Ford’s integrated controller electronically tracks hydraulic pressure inside the vehicle’s master cylinder and uses the pressure, along with vehicle speed, to modulate the amount of current produced for trailer brakes. Thus, the system accurately follows tow-vehicle braking with more at high pedal pressure, less at low, even to the point of using ABS. If the wheels of the tow vehicle are slipping, ABS goes into action for the tow vehicle as well as the trailer. The Ford system doesn’t give the trailer the same functions and characteristics of true ABS, but when the truck’s ABS is activated, the trailer-brake application is reduced to avoid wheel lockup, just as with true ABS. A dash monitor indicates the level of trailer braking, and a manual override is provided so the trailer brakes can be applied independently of tow-vehicle brakes. TBC-equipped Ford Super Duty trucks also enjoy an added element of safety; if the trailer is swaying, the TBC will actually apply the trailer brakes to help stabilize the trailer.

More; http://www.rv.net/SharedCode/ford/output.cfm?id=2973835

 

[wdk450]

Bill, I don't see anything on your link that offers ABS for trailers?


Porthole and Everyone else: Here is a better link: http://www.direclink.com

I edited the previous post with the better link. Also, see a comprehensive magazine article on installing this system here:
http://www.examiner.com/review/direclink-anti-lock-brakes-for-faster-safer-trailer-stopping

I plan to call the company this morning with questions about the system. I already sent an e-mail to MOR/ryde about making this an upgrade to their disk brakes upgrade.

 

[dave10a]

Fords brake controller is great and I do not understand why it is not used on all trucks. Also there are other options on other trucks that I would like that are not available on Ford. I wished all the manufacturers would incorporated the same features that make sense-- like air bags, rear view camera placement etc.... Oh well guess that is why the after market folks do well For some reason big companies can not adopt quickly.

 

[porthole]

Here is a better link: http://www.direclink.com

I edited the previous post with the better link. Also, see a comprehensive magazine article on installing this system here:
http://www.examiner.com/review/direclink-anti-lock-brakes-for-faster-safer-trailer-stopping

I plan to call the company this morning with questions about the system. I already sent an e-mail to MOR/ryde about making this an upgrade to their disk brakes upgrade.

That looks interesting. And on the Kodiak disc brake, the "toothed ring" is already on the rotor.
I'd be curious to pricing, haven't found that.

Because it replaces the pump we have now I would not be retro fitting mine. But because of weight i really don't have an issue either. Comparing my trailer to yours, same brakes but a much higher weight, you would benefit much more.

I agree though, MOR/ryde should consider offering it. If it "was" available when I installed mine as an option, no doubt I "would" have added it on.

 

[jnbhobe]

Maybe I'm missing something so correct me if I'm wrong. Bill you said you were missing some of the outer stick-on weights on all your tires. So that makes the tires way out of balance witch causes the flat spots. I don't buy the brakes locking up I had one wheel lock once and I knew it right away and to lock up and flat spot all the tires you would have to know it. I personally would tell the guys at that tire dealer their nuts and find another dealer. I haven't seen pictures but I'll bet your tires are flat spotted form being out of balance.

 

[wdk450]

Maybe I'm missing something so correct me if I'm wrong. Bill you said you were missing some of the outer stick-on weights on all your tires. So that makes the tires way out of balance witch causes the flat spots. I don't buy the brakes locking up I had one wheel lock once and I knew it right away and to lock up and flat spot all the tires you would have to know it. I personally would tell the guys at that tire dealer their nuts and find another dealer. I haven't seen pictures but I'll bet your tires are flat spotted form being out of balance.

Jon:
I had MAJOR flat spots on ALL 4 tires. When they rolled the tire for me in the shop you could see it bounce up and down. You could visibly see the flat spots. There were more than 4 of these spots on each tire. The tires/wheels come from Heartland unbalanced, and most people don't bother to balance them. I have had some sudden traffic light change rig stops in the last 6 months that I smelled the rubber from the stop while sitting at the stoplight. I really don't think that this is from missing wheel weights. I don't think my rig gives me much "feel" feedback as to whether the tires are locked up or rolling. I hope to find the right section of road where I can SAFELY adjust the controller using the manual brake lever test as this action does not light the brake lights.

I would welcome other owners feedback if they can tell if the wheels are rolling or locked during a hard stop. Usually I am pretty distracted being scared abut not stopping in time to sense what the trailer tires 30 feet behind me are doing.

I am mulling around in my mind a simple electronic circuit that would not provide ABS, but would come on during braking (brake light logic activated) and play the chirps from the disk tone wheel/add-on sensor - if the chirps stop before the rig does then I have locked up that wheel.

 

[caissiel]

In my defensive driving course, i was shown how to apply the brakes on a car that would be much more effective then anti lock brake.
To me there way be to many variables on electric trailer brakes. Disc brakes are very effective but are very hard to control. Put anti lock on and you are right back to drum brake performance.
Its like driving through Alaska to get to Hollywood.

Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk

 

[porthole]

In my defensive driving course, i was shown how to apply the brakes on a car that would be much more effective then anti lock brake.
To me there way be to many variables on electric trailer brakes. Disc brakes are very effective but are very hard to control. Put anti lock on and you are right back to drum brake performance.
Its like driving through Alaska to get to Hollywood.

Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk

Defensive driving for what - LEO?

 

[caissiel]

Ambulance.

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[porthole]

Ambulance.

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No comparison to what we are doing here.

 

[wdk450]

I have been in e-mail conversation with Chris at DirecLink. He sent me this link to a U-Tube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=porlGrbxO6Q

He said that Mor/Ryde installed one of their system last year. I clued him in about the 2015 Heartland National Goshen rally, and he forwarded it on to sales and marketing. I will link them to Jim B. if they are interested.

It looks like the system is pretty pricey - All you can use form your existing Mor/Ryde upgrade is the axle brake assembly and the hydraulic lines. Even the hydraulic lines may have to be re-done as there are separate lines to each wheel. Then you have to use their special high speed actuator ($700), their ABS module ($700?) , add-on wheel rotation sensors ($80? for 4), their special in-truck controller (which communicates with your truck's computer system via the OBD port - $500?) and their special "communications link" wiring to the trailer. This seems to be the only system out there. I hope that more sales or some competition will bring the prices down.