Insulation - comparing brands

[JamesD]

Ok, I see other people are also trying to compare between different brands and have most of the same concerns. However, one of my main concerns is insulation since I will be staying in the RV for extended periods, and comparing brands/models in this regard is difficult at best.

Most manufacturers list R values, but they come up with that based on estimates from the individual pieces that make up floors, walls, etc... and not from measuring the final assembled product which could vary quite a bit from the estimate. Companies manufacturing insulation products have a bit of legal fudge factor in actual R value and that adds up when you start to combine them. The ratings also rarely mention insulation of slide floors and such which could offset an otherwise well insulated RV.

I see Heartland has a 0 degree tested rating but that doesn't help me much either. Two different RVs could pass such a test, but one RV may never turn off the furnace while the other only runs the furnace once an hour. All the rating tells me is that I will be warm as long as I have propane but gives me no indication of how much propane I'll need. And I don't even know if the rating is with slides in or out.

How about telling us how how much propane is used per hour on an RV to maintain a 70 degree internal temp in zero degrees with the slides extended?
And how about how much electricity is needed to run the blower per hour?
This may determine how much you have to run a generator while boondocking.

 

[cookie]

James, wow that's a lot of questions. Questions that you may not get answered to your satisfaction. I think it would be difficult to impossible to arrive at an answer.
How much electricity does the blower use per hour? Depends. Does it run continuous, on for 10 minutes off for 10. On for 8 off for 15. Outside temp would dictate that along with other factors. Dual pane windows for example.
How much propane to use per hour to maintain 70? Depends. Is it windy, is it calm, is it 0 degrees outside or is it 25. Do you use your vent fan. How often do you open the door. Again, dual panes?
Can't help with the insulation questions other than we stay warm in ours when it is in the teens.
All good questions, just don't know if there is a pat answer.

Peace
Dave

 

[JamesD]

James, wow that's a lot of questions. Questions that you may not get answered to your satisfaction. I think it would be difficult to impossible to arrive at an answer.
How much electricity does the blower use per hour? Depends. Does it run continuous, on for 10 minutes off for 10. On for 8 off for 15. Outside temp would dictate that along with other factors. Dual pane windows for example. How much propane to use per hour to maintain 70? Depends. Is it windy, is it calm, is it 0 degrees outside or is it 25. Do you use your vent fan. How often do you open the door. Again, dual panes?
Can't help with the insulation questions other than we stay warm in ours when it is in the teens.
All good questions, just don't know if there is a pat answer.

Peace
Dave

I'm not really asking members what their experience is so much as asking manufacturers to give us something we can actually use to compare models.

 

[funntheson]

I'm not really asking members what their experience is so much as asking manufacturers to give us something we can actually use to compare models.

May I suggest that you post in the "Ask the Factory" thread? Because at this point, you are asking other members for their opinions.
Better yet, you may want to call the factory. The Heartland reps would be more than happy to answer your questions (or at least attempt to).

 

[jmgratz]

If you check the manufacturers website the 'R' rating are published. The use of propane has many variables. This past winter we were in our rig in Houston, Tx (colder than normal winter). We would go through a tank of propane a week keeping the thermostat set on 68 during the day and 63 at night. We also would run an electric space heater in the evening as a supplement at times. We kept warm and did not run the refrigerator on propane but on electric and the water heater ran on electric as well. Running them (Refrigerator and water heater) on propane will increase your usage as well.

 

[JamesD]

The zero degree tested rating is done in a test chamber. I'm just suggesting that they give us some sort of indication of how much propane is used during those tests. And the area is Prospective Owner Questions, it doesn't specify who I'm asking questions of. I'm sure someone at Heartland will see it even if they don't respond here.

 

[JamesD]

If you check the manufacturers website the 'R' rating are published. The use of propane has many variables......

And if you read my post you'll see manufactures take the supposed R values of the parts and add them together for the total which will probably be different than if they measured the actual R value.

You have to remember, things like aluminum trusses or aluminum framing transmits heat through the wall faster than wood. If you go by estimates (3/4" plywood R value + insulation + fiberglass etc...) doesn't account for heat conducted through the aluminum in the wall/ceiling/floor. Two RVs with the same estimated R values but wood vs aluminum construction will have very different actual R values if you measure it.

What I proposed was measuring use of propane in a controlled environment. See my last comment.

 

[2010augusta]

So you are asking for ALL RV manufacturers to agree upon a standardized heating demand test? Then every manufacturer would need access to the same type of test chamber, and test EVERY floor-plan of EVERY model-line with several versions of each since some options will greatly affect the heating demand of otherwise identical trailers.

Every floor-plan would have to be test since the number and size of windows will change the heating demand, the type of window covering will also have an affect.

Basement layouts and storage compartments door and other opening also affect the heating demand, since some heat is directed there to keep water lines from freezing. The number and size of ducts in the basement will have an affect.

The length of the "cold-snap" is also a factor. If it is going to be sub-freezing for a few hours or a day then, it does not matter as much if tank drains freeze up or not, so the basement can be much cooler. If it will be several days of sub-freezing temps, then ALL parts of the basement need to be much warmer.

The slide-outs ceiling, side-walls, and floors are considerably less insulated than the rest of the trailer so the slides would have to be extended for the tests.

Instead of making a demand on a forum, you need to communicate with ISO, RVIA and ASME and create the criteria for this new test you want, and then wait a few years before it is implemented.

Or go with the information that is available and use your own judgement as to what the R-values and material types can really do.

 

[JamesD]

It wasn't a demand, it was a suggestion. Calling it a demand was an exaggeration. And no they wouldn't have to test every model as long as manufacturers tested similar models (# of slides, length, etc...) so there was some sort of basis for comparison. BTW, I already suggested testing with the slides out.

If I go by R values I'd probably choose something over a Heartland. I don't trust estimated R values at all because, as I said before it's an estimate based on parts rather than measured. If the insulation industry is like other industries, there can be a HUGE discrepancy between actual and what is on the label. For example, the number of calories listed in food can legally be off by up to 20%. In terms of R value, that could mean one manufacturer who advertises R9 walls has R9 walls, but another manufacturer that advertises R10 could have R8. So tell me, how can I tell who is fudging the numbers and who isn't? And some insulation looses R value if it is compressed. How are you supposed to know if a manufacturer does that? The fact is, you can't and no amount of common sense will help unless a manufacturer has thicker walls, thicker roof, thicker floor, etc... and that could even be misleading.

If I went by common sense I'd save my money longer and buy a Mobile Suite. I just don't want the extra weight or to pay that much when a Landmark (or similar) is very close. Frankly, I could probably get by with a Big Horn or Montana if I make a few modifications. I just have to worry about a few weeks of really cold weather that occasionally crop up in Colorado.

If a manufacturer is advertising 0 degree tested then they should already be testing their units that carry that label. If they aren't, then it's called false advertising. I just figured if Heartland is already testing maybe they would consider something a little more meaningful. Frankly, I'd settle for testing R values of a fully constructed wall, ceiling, floor, etc... That would not require testing all units since they use the same construction. It could even be a marketing point. "Tests prove our RVs have R9 insulated walls... other manufacturers just estimate" Which would you trust more? Tested or estimated?

If you think I'm being unfair about zero degree tested, just imagine how I feel about "Arctic Insulation Package". I think the people in marketing that came up with that should be parked in that company's 5er at the arctic circle for a week in the middle of winter. I think it would quickly be changed to insulation upgrade package.

If people weren't so quick to defend manufactures maybe more people would complain and there would be some sort of standards.
And if more people complained, maybe states would pass lemon laws and manufacturers wouldn't get away with broken frames or shoddy workmanship.

 

[SouthernNights]

JamesD,

While I agree that the basis of your argument is valid, it will not get answered here on a forum that is designed primarily for members to share experiences and ideas.
The factory does monitor the forum, but as funntheson pointed out, maybe a 10 minute phone call to the factory will clear up 3 days of forum posting.

These guys at the factory are very sincere and will try to help answer any questions but you have to have an open mind when you talk to them. I doubt if any of the product managers for Landmark, Big Horn or Big Country are in the position to make a decision on how the units are tested. They just have information that they can share to help you make the best decision you can with the information available to you.

With that said, I am confused over your last statment. Is there a deeper agenda here?

"If people weren't so quick to defend manufactures maybe more people would complain and there would be some sort of standards.
And if more people complained, maybe states would pass lemon laws and manufacturers wouldn't get away with broken frames or shoddy workmanship."

 

[JamesD]

With that said, I am confused over your last statment. Is there a deeper agenda here?

"If people weren't so quick to defend manufactures maybe more people would complain and there would be some sort of standards.
And if more people complained, maybe states would pass lemon laws and manufacturers wouldn't get away with broken frames or shoddy workmanship."

Deeper agenda? Rather than turn this into a public rant I'll send you a PM.

 

[rlaubert]

My wife and I are full-timers. We are staying in the Philadelphia area and have been looking at a new rig. Specifically we are interested in a toy hauler, not for toys but to make into a family room and for our hobbies (Lapidary and computers).
My question is about the insulation in the toy area. We have been researching and have found that some units do not have insulation in the toy area. Not just the door, but floors as well.
Can anyone tell me if the floors, walls and ceiling of the Heartland models are insulated. The brochures make it seem so, but looking for facts if I can find them.

 

[LarryD]

Can't really answer the question. But I would think that the wall insulation is the same front to rear, omitting the insulation on the back part of the wall would cause really problems with pinch-rolled laminated walls. The floor and roof are different issues. While the roof probably is insulated, I can see omitting insulation in the floor of the toy area. Any significant liquid spill from toys and the insulation would need to be ripped out anyway.

 

[ihsolutions]

I see discussions on insulation come up from time to time here, but more commonly on some of the other more mainstream forums. I agree with what you're saying, that there isn't a really good way to compare brands as it stands today, and estimate R-values may be less meaningful than they sound.

One thing that is seldom addressed in these insulation discussions, however, is how air-tight the units are, especially around the slide seals, and the impact that has on overall insulation value. I don't care if you've got R-1000 walls, ceilings, and floors. It's still gonna get cold with that R-0 (almost) slide seal that is an inch around the entire perimeter of each slide. A thin piece of rubber has very little insulation value. Why all these discussions about insulation ignore this fact is a mystery to me. If the slide is not perfectly aligned (and few are) that's all that separates you from the outdoors.

I'd much rather look at how a slide unit performs as it reaches full extension. Does it compress the bulb seal the whole way around? Are there multiple wipe seals as my Bighorn has? This is not only important from an insulation standpoint, but preventing water intrusion as well.

 

[grizzlygiant]

Heartland's "0 degree" test means only that the holding tanks will not freeze in zero degree weather. Water lines WILL freeze even with the furnace running. Wind plays a big role. We skirt our rig during the winter months.

 

[lwmcguir]

Most all you that have been around RV's for any amount of time are fully aware of having to go to the upper end of Brands/Models if you want a real tight unit. You are going to pay a lot more than a HL unit runs. If that is really your concern then you need to purchase something in that category. HL is coming out with the Yeti which apparently is going to be designed to compete with the true Arctic Packages that are out there. We don't plan on camping in zero degree weather so that wasn't a concern for us. Had it been then we would have paid the price and went that direction.

 

[SouthernNights]

Even with the Yeti package you will not get the the unit any tighter. When I talked with Kary at the show, he stated the the yeti package consisted of heating pads on the tanks and a thermostatically controlled heated insulation on the water inlet. The foil barrier that is under the slide carpet is now installed as standard equipment on all LM, BH BC units.

 

[lwmcguir]

I thought the Yeti might be more than that. We already have all that and more that we added just for protecion in the teens. Sounds like you will still have to look elsewhere (SOB) if you want to go where it is cold and not have all the issues you hear about. We have looked at a lot of coaches as most of you have. We just didn't want to speed $100K or so to stay out in the cold.