Looking at Diesel Pusher. Tell Me Why Not

[scottyb]

First of all, I have enjoyed my 4100 immensely and this forum has made the experience even better. It has been an excellent Toy Hauler and I can not speak highly enough of my experience with it as an introduction to RV'ing. Most of my RV'ing right now consist of long travel days (400-500 mi), with one night stopovers along the way, to reach a destination at a specific time. We may stay 3 or 4 days and move to another location for a total of a week to 10 days, then make the long tow home. There are a few things concerning the logistics of 5th wheels, that are making me desire a MH. Comfort on the road and space for the dogs are a couple. I have driven rigs like the one I want recently and I have found them to be amazingly comfortable and quiet, since the big diesel engine (M11) is over 40' behind you.

I know there are a some here that have owned them in the past. The biggest thing I hear is cost of maintenance. I have been researching and learning over the last year and have narrowed it down to the manufacturer that I feel has about the highest customer satisfaction (Newmar). I will not buy a new one, more likely a 2007 or 08. with low mileage. This will allow me to get a fairly high-end rig that has already taken the huge hit on depreciation. The drive trains are built for hundreds of thousands of miles. I understand the additional maintenance cost like oil and filter changes, but that is of little concern to me since I will do it myself and have the advantage of expert assistance if needed. Tires are a huge expense, but last forever. It has been a long known fact that the tires will time-out, long before the tread wears out. Now Michellin is claiming that their truck tires" are good for 10 years, if an RV is stored indoors (Motorhome Magazine). Based on conversations with friends who own DP's and many topics read and taken as a"whole", fuel mileage will not be that much different than what my rig gets now (8 mpg). What other routine expenses can one expect with a DP? Any objective Pros and Cons? I fully understand that a Tag axle DP will be more expensive all around, but I have not yet made the decision if it is worth the extra expense. I suppose that is a personal matter. None of this is set in stone and I could easily pull the plug on it.

 

[porthole]

"If" I had the money and were ready to retire, there is a good chance there would be a tag axle DP in the driveway, maybe.

Certainly would like to give one a whirl for a year and travel the country. We have had several members here make the switch and not look back.
Lightly used seems to be the way to go, even though I do like my stuff new, as you mentioned depreciation is a huge hit. With DP's you could be talking about 200K of depreciation

One of our friends and former Bighorn owners here made the switch to a Tiffen DP. Beautiful. But, they are retried and really enjoying the life. One story they shared was a visit to the TIffen factory for some repairs. As fine as they are, the camping lot was full of folks waiting for repairs.

I'd say, if you have the where-with-all-to do it - go for it.

At least if you decide it is not for you, the cost to change back will a much lesser hit.

 

[TravelTiger]

Don't forget that you'll need a toad or something to run to the grocery store, or go sight-seeing.

Friends of ours expressed the DP engines don't like to sit. They have to be exercised or you get problems. They traded theirs and went to a bumper pull trailer (already had truck as daily driver). Only one engine to maintain was their main goal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tombstonejim]

You will like the DP much better than the 5th wheel once you get used to it. Much easier to park. Setup tear down goes much faster for me. Storage compartments and aux equipment are much better organized and easier to get to Specially things like water pumps, inverters, generators. I only traded my Holiday rambler for a trailer because I knew we were through making numerous and long distance trips.

My experience is even the low level DP are better made than any trailer. You need to study up on air brakes if you are not familiar with them. And read the up on the large Allison's. They work a lot different than the light duty ones.
The wife really liked that she cold move around in the DP while moving and how easy it was to make roadside stops for lunch etc.

I did not find maintenance to be that bad. If it is out of warranty you will find it better to use the engine manufactures and chassis manufactures than most RV dealers.

I took mine to caterpillar places for engine and transmission service and freightliner places for chassis. I found in most cases they knew more than any RV dealer.

 

[SilverRhino]

My wife will be retiring this October so we will then be on the road a lot more, not full time but we will be taking much longer trips. In anticipation of this, we started looking at our options about a year ago. We really like our BC and it meets all our needs. The problem that we faced was that our tow vehicle, '01 Dodge Ram 3500, was not very comfortable for me to drive. After extensive back, neck, shoulder and knee surgeries, the Dodge rode a little too rough.

We sat down and looked at the cost of buying a MH and what all that would entail. ( Selling Dodge, selling BC & buying a toad ) That was compared to replacing the tow vehicle with a Medium Duty Truck and what that would entail. ( Sell the Dodge & buy MDT ) We are in a situation that either was financially feasible.

After considering all the options, we decided to replace the pickup with a Freightliner Sport Chassis. The FL is all air so the ride is really nice and I still have a truck that I can use to haul plywood etc. I was also fortunate to be able to find a slightly used, low mileage truck that had a drive train that I liked better than any MH I could find. We have been very happy with our decision, and for us it was the way to go. Everyone has different likes and dislikes, so you will have to decide exactly what works best for you.

 

[Bohemian]

Mostly:

$$$$
sq ft
$$$/sq ft

 

[dave10a]

As a past owner of a Phaeton 40ft DP, I have found that the DP is intended to travel long distance with ease while the trailer is good at sitting in place. The suspension on my trailer is marginal while the DP is robust in comparison. The fifth wheel offers more room and is more like a park model in comfort-- assuming you have a 40ft 5th wheel like mine. The DP is more luxurious in its decor, but the gap has become insignificant in later years because the trailer folks are offering better design, components and interiors. DP's don't like to sit in place for extended time and the over-all maintenance costs are higher. My diesel truck uses half the oil and half the cost in filters, air brakes, fuel and oil. The antifreeze costs are about the same. The trailer needs wheel packing, brake more tire maintenance than the DP. However the tire costs for DP's are higher, but last much longer while driving and are about the same if sitting without driving. Another point is my fuel consumption on the DP was 8-9 mpg while my truck is 12-13 pulling and 17-20 not pulling. My dingy on the DP got 25-27mpg which roughly makes the DP vs trailer about the same over-all. Also the CAT engine is rated for 500,000 miles while diesel pickups are rated for 250,000 miles.

 

[scottyb]

Thanks for all the objective replies. It's funny several of you mentioned how bad sitting is, on a diesel engine. One of the big debates amongst MH enthusiast is, high mileage and un-lived-in, or low mileage with full timers. I supposed that holds true even with 5th wheels and travel trailers. I have always been of the opinion that sitting idle is bad with anything, including gas engines and even things like refrigerators and air conditioners. I have a good friend in OH that works for Cummins in their R&D division. His job is to torture engines and try to mke them fail. Then they take some shears and slice them up and send them away as scrap. He claims that sitting does no harm as long as you can keep the fuel fresh. He also thinks the ISM or M11 is a horse and one of the best engines Cummins has ever made. Too bad it went the way of the 7.3L Navstar. The two I am looking at tomorrow both have the ISM.

 

[2TrakR]

We moved from MH to 5th Wheel to better do what we wanted - haul bikes and have a run-about vehicle. The other side was more suitable sleeping quarters for our kids.

MH are way-way better at travel. Set up and tear down are about the same amount of time for us. Being able to stop along the road and be "in camp" is much nicer with the MH.

We had a run-about vehicle with the MH, hauled in the trailer behind the MH with the bikes/quads. It was a LOT of machine to put down the road compared to the 5th wheel.

From what you describe of your situation, the MH would be a better option. As others have mentioned, bring along another vehicle to do your running from camp. Adds a little complexity to the "pure motorhome" setup, but you never want to break camp with the unit just to run to town.

 

[jmgratz]

I have heard of some MH folks renting cars when they get to where they are going. They say it saves them money by not have to maintain a toad.

 

[scottyb]

We moved from MH to 5th Wheel to better do what we wanted - haul bikes and have a run-about vehicle. The other side was more suitable sleeping quarters for our kids.

MH are way-way better at travel. Set up and tear down are about the same amount of time for us. Being able to stop along the road and be "in camp" is much nicer with the MH.

We had a run-about vehicle with the MH, hauled in the trailer behind the MH with the bikes/quads. It was a LOT of machine to put down the road compared to the 5th wheel.

From what you describe of your situation, the MH would be a better option. As others have mentioned, bring along another vehicle to do your running from camp. Adds a little complexity to the "pure motorhome" setup, but you never want to break camp with the unit just to run to town.

I'm in a little bit of a unique situation on my truck. My job (for 6-10 more years) requires me to own a pickup, which pays for itself. My intention is to sell mt DRW and buy a F150 4x4, which can be flat towed, with minimal setup. I will haul bicycles, kayaks, golf cart, or whatever is on the menu in/on the F150. My dream shot is a stacker trailer, but that may not sound so good down the road. I can see where towing a trailer would lessen the advantage of convenience.

Me and DW drove to DFW today and test drove "the one". We haven't inked the deal yet, but I did pull oil samples on the engine, tranny, and genny. If nothing fails and we can finalize an agreement, we may be into a 2007 Newmar Mountain Aire 4528 tag axle. It has the Cummins 11L (M11 or ISM) 450 HP and a 10K Onan.

 

[Tombstonejim]

That is one nice MH. Your biggest problem will be keeping it under the speed limit.

 

[dave10a]

The primary reason diesels and gas engines and transmissions don't like to be idle, is because of condensation causes metal corrosion, dry starting cause accelerated wear, oil seals oxidize and get brittle and the fuel goes stale-- especially alcohol mixed fuels. Caterpillar recommended to drive at least once a month to keep the engine and transmission lubed. Tires are another issue and should be stored and covered properly. Also diesel engines should not run at idle speeds for more than 3 minutes-- according to Ford and Caterpillar. Cat claims the oil will become contaminated with diesel fuel from "slobbering" while Ford is silent for their reason.

 

[whp4262]

We sold our MH a couple years ago and went with the 5th wheel toy hauler because it suites our life style. The MH was more comfortable over the road and easier to set up and take down. If we were just stoping for the night we could do all the leveling etc. from inside the coach and the only thing I had to go out side for was to plug it in and sometimes we didn't even do that. Maintenance expense on the camper portion was about the same as the trailer. The drivetrain was definitely more expense but if you do a lot of your own maintenance it's not to bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[brianharrison]

The side radiator helps with access to the filters, especially for the DIYers; it will be my choice when we move to a DP.

The aquahot system needs a bit of TLC to maintain it's performance. I encourage you to check up on the service records for that component. Nothing complicating, simply good Preventive Maintenance. Link for good read.

There is anecdotal evidence that older Aquahot systems were prone to leaks (trouble shooting guide), and there was one recall that I am aware of for burner tube failures (pre 2005).

Nice unit.

Brian

 

[scottyb]

That is an excellent tutorial. I have seen one other, but on an Oasis. This is also a great source of information. RV Hydronic Heater Repair Forum

The Admin (Roger) is considered to be a guru of all makes, and attends a lot of national rallies. I just joined and here is a response I got by asking what to look for on a used unit.

Scott

Great question!

You want to check the unit very carefully for coolant leaks. Some coolant leaks are repairable and some are not. You want to bring the unit to operating temperature to verify that there are no coolant leaks. Sometimes heaters will not leak when cold, but leak coolant when they are at operating temperature. If the coolant leak is not in an spot that can be repaired, this is a catastrophic failure and will require replacement of heater.

Turn on the water pump / connect to shore water. If the Hydro-Hot has been frozen, then the fresh water will leak into the boiler coolant and overflow into the expansion tank. This is a catastrophic failure and will require replacement of heater.

Replacement of Hydro-Hot will be with a brand new model 450-DE4. By the time you are done, this will be somewhere north of $10K.

Try to light the diesel. If unit is not been in operation for awhile, it normally will not light. Could be as simple as needing routine service or major repairs. Rebuilt burner is here: http://www.parts.rvhydronicheaterre...in-492-For-Hydro-Hot-REBUILT-Webasto-x492.htm Check for diesel fuel leaks. Even if burner will not light, listen to the motor in the Webasto. Should run 2-3 minutes after it faults, then shut down cleanly. The operation of the burner is controlled by the silver box, which is very expensive.

Turn on the electric side of the Hydro-Hot. You should see a major energy draw (element draws 12.6 amps) on the coach energy management system or if connected to electric meter a surge in electrical usage. If no shore power is available, then start the generator. On most coaches you will hear the generator load when you turn on the electric element. If electric element is non-operational budget $600+ for worst case scenario for repairs (failed control board).

Once you get unit to operating tempature, run each interior heating zone - one at a time to verify that there is heat in that zone.

If you are not able to properly and thoroughly test unit, then either get a iron clad warranty (10K in escrow account) or assume that the heater needs to be replaced.

You will really love your Aqua-Hot and your new coach. Quite wonderful!

 

[Birchwood]

We would like to get the motorhome experience behind or ahead of us.Wish we could rent a class A for a few months to give it a try.
Maybe its an age thing with handling a 40 ft fifth wheel don't know.I do know that fifth wheel owners are not friendly with motorhome owners .
I feel that new motor home owners are really their parents home.Maybe someday we will convert??

 

[scottyb]

We're about 99% there. Waiting on results from the oil sample I took (engine, tranny, and Onan). If everything turns out OK, we have an appointment to do a PPI on 12/26. They are installing all new Michellins and replacing the windshield. While the windshield is out, we are having a Samsung fridge installed. Here's a sneak peek. 2007 Newmar Mountain Aire 4528, 46K mi, 450 HP Cummins ISM, Allison 4000MH, Onan 10K, 3 AC's w/ heat pumps, Hydronic heating,

 

[jbeletti]

Very nice. Wishing you all the best on your newest adventure.

 

[Garypowell]

Looks like a really nice coach. I'll miss your posts here! Best to you in your travels.