Recommendations for 12v appliance info (appreciate links to right threads on the forum)

[NathanArnold]

So... long story short that my father-in-law are in early stages of planning for a full class A gut and remodel and we have options to plan for almost any configuration and power design. We will do some occasional off the grid travel but the unit will be primarily be connected on "shore power" as a guest home on our property so we want full functionality for Air BnB purposes. Basic question is: Can we go full functionality with completely 12v appliances? Are there options available for washer/dryer, fridge, tv, ac, sound system etc (I realize the last one would be a conversion)? I've the basic wiring configs on the HUG section but wondering especially about appliance options. Probably looking at a diesel pusher (large size with pullouts) and interested in possibilities of installing a rooftop solar system eventually (so the 12v would be ideal for that).

I’m a newbie but we’re in full planning mode and this will affect what we purchase so appreciate any help or links to threads that speak to this.

Thanks in advance!

 

[centerline]

nearly all appliances can be purchased in 12vdc versions, but the cost can be extreme in some cases....

many of the larger truckstops have 12vdc TV's, Microwave ovens, blenders and such, on the shelf, or you can search online for them...

BUT, with if you are going to be primarily on shore power, why go 12v with the appliances?... a 12vdc can TV make sense for those that normally camp without shore power, but for the other appliances that are DC, they will consume a LOT of battery power, and they wont operate on the AC circuits, so you would have to add or rewire circuits that are intended to carry the load for these appliances.... because with an appliance that has a high power consumption and a low voltage, it will need big wires..

so, if you want the option of using the convenience's of using RV out boondocking, its my suggestion to remodel the rv as normal and install a solar array and inverter....
a high quality 400-500watt system, with a modern AUTOMATIC inverter can be purchased for a few dollars less than $1000...

I suggest this because, you are going to need to built a large bank of amps anyway for your plan of operating the high draw 12v appliances... so the cost of the planned "battery bank" is not counted as an "extra" cost, but something you should already have budgeted for

there are may upsides to this approach, and the batteries will be maintained better, and being kept charged by the solar panels....

if you were to use the budget that you planned to invest in new appliances, and put it into a solar system, it will serve you well for many more years, using regular appliances, than you would from the 12v units.... its a much more workable plan, and will be a lot more affordable in the long run.... and, Normally, adding solar would increase the value of the RV, but as its going to be an "owner remodel" unit, one never knows how it will all turn out.....

 

[wdk450]

I would think twice about running any high wattage normally 120 volt appliances on 12 volt DC power. Read the amps draw label on the devices (the Air Conditioner is about 12 amps) and remember the conversion factor from AC amps to DC amps is right at 1:10. That 12 amp 120 VAC air conditioner will pull about 120 amps DC. The fireplace and space heaters about the same each. My microwave oven pulls 1300 watts, would be about 130 amps DC. Electrical arc welders (with their really thick, expensive, copper cables) start at just about 60 amps. These high current cables and connections are subject to heat damage and possible fire danger with just minor resistances in the cable connections. With just 1 Ohm of resistance in that 130 amp microwave wiring connection, you could be generating 16,900 watts of electrical heat (Power = Current SQUARED times the Resistance) at that connection point.

 

[NathanArnold]

Thanks for the info--very helpful and it sounds like going 120v for appliances and wiring is going to be the simplest for us cost and for multiple other reasons.

I'm also trying to figure out the relationship between built-in diesel generator, batteries, solar and shore power. If I have a decent diesel generator on board and large diesel tank (sipping from same as engine), is that going to be the ticket for most situations? Do I even need to mess with solar or should I go heavy on batteries that I can charge while on shore power? Just trying to think through my strategy here—usage wise and cost wise.

 

[centerline]

Thanks for the info--very helpful and it sounds like going 120v for appliances and wiring is going to be the simplest for us cost and for multiple other reasons.

I'm also trying to figure out the relationship between built-in diesel generator, batteries, solar and shore power. If I have a decent diesel generator on board and large diesel tank (sipping from same as engine), is that going to be the ticket for most situations? Do I even need to mess with solar or should I go heavy on batteries that I can charge while on shore power? Just trying to think through my strategy here—usage wise and cost wise.

there is no need for solar if you will be plugged in all the time.... and there is no need for solar for a weekend out boondocking, or, no more need than if you were camping in a tent...
solar comes into play when you spend a lot of time away from shore power, and use a lot of energy from your batteries.....

most rvs are sold with 1 single house battery, which some people get by with this until they start having battery issues from depleting it so often....
two G31 deep cycle batteries are about the minimum I would suggest... if you go with an inverter, go with a quantity of 4, G31 batteries, as a minimum....

there is no relationship between a solar array and shore power, a generator, or an alternator... the solar option on an RV, wires to the battery bank, and its ONLY use is for charging the batteries.... and a good solar controller will keep them equalized and in top condition....

an INVERTER can invert the DC power that is stored in the batteries, into 120vAC power for whatever needs you may have when NOT plugged into shore power....

the diesel generator commonly draws from the main tank, but with the pick-up tube in the tank drawing fuel from about a 3rd of the way up from the bottom, to prevent drawing the reserve of fuel down too far and not having enough left to go for a refill.... plus, as its a diesel, one doesnt want to run it out of fuel....

personally, I prefer a dedicated tank for the generator, which there is generally plenty of room beneath the coach to install a big one if thats what you choose....
the diesel generator will be a lot more fuel efficient than a gas drive generator of the same size/wattage....


a generator will supply 120vac power that you can use also, and which will power the onboard converter-charger, that can recharge the batts.... no matter the charging source, there is no switching of switches or wiring to make it all play nice together, just install it and let it do its thing....

 

[NathanArnold]

Thanks to everyone—you guys are most helpful and appreciate the info.

Couple questions:

1. Regarding diesel generator… the separate tank idea sounds like a good option, curious if are there any disadvantages to having TOO large a tank? I’m wondering about added weight or storage over time. Same weight question with having too large a battery bank… or maybe when you’re talking a 20k+ vehicle anyway, the fuel and battery weight is inconsequential?

2. Regarding solar—I’m curious about how practical it ends up being if you’ve already got a large diesel gen for long off-shoring. Of course would save on generator fuel, but I’m especially wondering (usage-wise) if most campgrounds are shaded anyway and since I’ll have a roof cover while on shore power at my house… I guess the solar would charge some while driving on large trips? But do you have any lower MPG from aerodynamics?

So maybe the scenario where it makes sense is a long-term trip in western US desert areas (for several weeks without shore power?).

 

[centerline]

Thanks to everyone—you guys are most helpful and appreciate the info.

Couple questions:

1. Regarding diesel generator… the separate tank idea sounds like a good option, curious if are there any disadvantages to having TOO large a tank? I’m wondering about added weight or storage over time. Same weight question with having too large a battery bank… or maybe when you’re talking a 20k+ vehicle anyway, the fuel and battery weight is inconsequential?

2. Regarding solar—I’m curious about how practical it ends up being if you’ve already got a large diesel gen for long off-shoring. Of course would save on generator fuel, but I’m especially wondering (usage-wise) if most campgrounds are shaded anyway and since I’ll have a roof cover while on shore power at my house… I guess the solar would charge some while driving on large trips? But do you have any lower MPG from aerodynamics?

So maybe the scenario where it makes sense is a long-term trip in western US desert areas (for several weeks without shore power?).

the fuel tank CAN be too big... even diesel fuel goes stale, so it needs to be used down periodically so it can be refilled with fresh fuel....

the generator can be used for long periods, but burning $15-$20 dollars worth of diesel everyday, with all the noise it creates is NOT my style of camping, and neither do I want you camping NEXT to me with your constantly, or "often" running generator.... most others will agree.

batteries.... its nearly impossible to have too many batteries, except for the weight of them.... LiFPO 4 batteries are about half the weight, and deliver twice the amps, and are 4-5 times more expensive than a conventional flooded battery.... so, for those that can afford it, there are options for weight reduction of the battery bank...

solar... its the most practical way to maintain batteries... because it takes NO effort from you to start a generator, plug in a cord, or turn on a switch.... you dont even need to be in the vicinity of the coach for MONTHS, and yet the batteries will be kept charged and equalized... NO noise whatsoever...
unless you have a fairly constant NEED to run a component that has a high power consumption, solar is the best choice.... any one who has installed solar panels, and an inverter, AND have a generator, we find the generator rarely if ever gets used any longer.... this leads to the reason that most manufactures have stopped installing generators as standard equipment.. because solar is what everyone seems to want, which if done right, makes the generator obsolete for RV'ers...

BUT, Again, you are talking about camping in campgrounds. shaded campgrounds... if your going to be camping in a campground, there is usually an option for shore power... so, there is no need for solar or a genset.... if you like campgrounds and choose a more primative type without shore power, the shade will be an issue for panels... but the battery bank should allow you to camp comfortably for a few days....just like in the past, long before solar or generators were ever a thing in RVs

Within the world of RV life, it matters little how much power a system (whichever type you choose) is able to produce and store, we ALWAYS need to remain mindful of, and limit our power use accordingly... because when one doesnt do this, it can ruin batteries quickly.. and while its ruining our batteries, we are without the power we thought would just magically be there with as many amps as we could ever wastefully use.....

solar is the future, as it works quietly in the background.. but if we, as the manager of the system, do not care to understand its limitations and how it all needs to work together to be a long life, dependable system, AND mind our power usage, it can be nothing more than an expensive failed experiment.... at least until we decide to actually manage OUR power CONSUMPTION, and learn to conserve, just like EVERY camper that has came before, and ALL that will come after....

also, what some people dont understand about solar is, depending on the solar output and the size of their currently installed onboard charger, its easily possible to recharge the battery bank from the panels quicker than from shore power or the generator....

solar is a very viable system, unless one feels that their RV should have as much capability and capacity as their 200amp house system has... because that much power just isnt possible from our little 50amp system, which really isnt even 50 amps, because the 50amps is SPLIT into 2 separate 20amp circuits for use in our RV (and boats)......... its not possible ONLY because we dont have enough room for that many panels and batteries..

 

[david-steph2018]

Thanks to everyone—you guys are most helpful and appreciate the info.

Couple questions:

1. Regarding diesel generator… the separate tank idea sounds like a good option, curious if are there any disadvantages to having TOO large a tank? I’m wondering about added weight or storage over time. Same weight question with having too large a battery bank… or maybe when you’re talking a 20k+ vehicle anyway, the fuel and battery weight is inconsequential?

2. Regarding solar—I’m curious about how practical it ends up being if you’ve already got a large diesel gen for long off-shoring. Of course would save on generator fuel, but I’m especially wondering (usage-wise) if most campgrounds are shaded anyway and since I’ll have a roof cover while on shore power at my house… I guess the solar would charge some while driving on large trips? But do you have any lower MPG from aerodynamics?

So maybe the scenario where it makes sense is a long-term trip in western US desert areas (for several weeks without shore power?).

As mentioned too large of a tank can be too much. Fuel will go old, plus how much will you use it, will it be worth having a larger separate tank installed.
Last September we had a full rig solar system installed on our toy hauler. We have 960 AH on the new batteries. We had 2-3000-watt inverters installed, one to each leg, and have 8-200-watt panels on the roof. Some campgrounds are tree covered, others not so much. For example, Sigsbee on Key West NAS has very few trees covered sites, most are out in the open.
This coming winter we are going to try to stay at Sigsbee for a long time period, probably close to 90 days just on our solar, maybe run the generator to help recharge, but no shore power.
Our solar does charge while traveling, but it all depends on the direction and amount of sun the panels are getting. Since we have 1600-watts of panels, we do not get that number when using solar, from what I was told, the optimum amount would be around 70-80% of power. But this all depends on several things.

 

[NathanArnold]

// Our solar does charge while traveling, but it all depends on the direction and amount of sun the panels are getting. // Thank you, very helpful. Have you noticed any decreased mpg after installing the panels from wind resistance? Just curious.

 

[david-steph2018]

// Our solar does charge while traveling, but it all depends on the direction and amount of sun the panels are getting. // Thank you, very helpful. Have you noticed any decreased mpg after installing the panels from wind resistance? Just curious.

I get around 9.5mpg towing this big thing. Going thru the Rockies I have dropped down to around 5 mpg. But that is pulling a 21,00lb rig up thru a 10,000-foot pass. Now on flat ground around the coastline of Florida, Texas I can get 10 mpg, watching my speed.
The panels are maybe 1" thick, the front is on the front nose with the slight angle to them, so that will help with wind deflection.
If you take the AC units off, how much will it increase the mpg?