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View Full Version : It's here!!Mixed feelings...



SouthernNights
05-09-2009, 07:02 PM
Our new 3250 is here.
Looks nice on the outside...

http://http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f340/piratevader1/002.jpg


But a mess on the inside...

http://http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f340/piratevader1/016.jpg

already tracking down problems...

http://http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f340/piratevader1/018.jpg


This is the reason the water heater did not work on gas.
Still a beautiful trailer. I am not sure how well the dealer checked it out or the quality control at Heartland, but all these things can be fixed.

Empty Pockets
05-10-2009, 06:10 AM
wow!! I hope the 3950 we are looking to buy doesnt look like that behind the walls. thats shameful, looks like the heat wont flow through those ducts.

SouthernNights
05-10-2009, 06:45 AM
I was very surprised when we opened the basement door. The plywood partition that hides this was not even screwed in place. I think the tech prepping the trailer was trying to fix the water heater and ran out of time:rolleyes:. Water heater is now fixed.
Anyway, I expected something different from Heartland. In another post, someone said quality suffers from increased production speed. Those lines at Heartland must be wide open.:D

I will clean it up but I am worried that might effect the warranty.

Other than a few little things, the interior is beautiful. By far the nicest trailer we have ever owned.

geeksrus
05-10-2009, 07:17 AM
wow!! I hope the 3950 we are looking to buy doesnt look like that behind the walls. thats shameful, looks like the heat wont flow through those ducts.

Expect it to be that way... my Big Horn is the same way.

With the MANY problems I've encountered on my unit (less than 2 years old) I doubt if Heartland understands quality!

Eh!

Peteandsharon
05-10-2009, 09:01 AM
We bought our BH 3055 early last year and frankly I haven't taken any panels off to get this view of the interior. Maybe I should. What is the quickest way to gain access to the compartment where you can see the hot water heater, water pump ducting etc?

Thanks,

Pete

mjatwalker
05-10-2009, 09:06 AM
Looks like I need to check out our 3250.

nscaler2
05-10-2009, 11:04 AM
I don't know if they are ALL this way, but our 3055RL is. It is such a tangled up mess of wires, plumbing, ducts and other miscellaneous stuff that I don't know where to begin to make sence of it all. It looks like many different things would have to be cut and spliced to untangle the mess, and I am affraid to do that. There appears to be too many splices in the water lines already. Don't need to add more points for trouble. It is a bit disheartening to see the lack of quality in the hidden places.:o

Bob&Patty
05-10-2009, 11:38 AM
IMHO, we need to all step back and take deep breath. Yes I have seen behind the walls and was kinda shocked. But maybe we are not seeing the whole picture. Remember that all the wiring, plumbling that is in the walls has to have enough length the be connected to the same wires, water lines and such in the floor. The walls are not like building a car or truck where all the pieces are put on seperately, the walls are 1 piece. Have you ever tried to splice a wire together that only has an inch of play between the 2 pieces?? I would bet that any coach you buy would be about the same. I left mine alone, because, "if it isn't broken, don't fix it". Now, I do agree that a little more quality control should be taken in assembly. But I think HL is as good as most. Im also sure of one more thing. HL is not trying to waste any material and cost themselves money. BTW, if you think the things behind the walls are scary, then never take out the "cluster carrier" (dash) in your 50K car or truck. That is real scary, and I know that for a fact. Thanks for listening. Bob:D

SouthernNights
05-10-2009, 12:43 PM
Two items will clean up the spaghetti---junction blocks for the wires and manifolds for the plumbing. I never expected to see picture postcard wiring in the trailer-but then I never expected this.
This mess is partly responsible for my water heater not working. It gets its 12 volt power from a gray 16 guage wire off the monitor inside the kitchen cabinet. It is inturn wire nutted to a blue wire which is then wire nutted to the red wire on the heater-wire nut on gray wire fell off :eek:
The picture I posted is about 10 grounds all tied together with a wire nut. I knocked that off trying to pull wires out of the cabinet.

Bob&Patty, If I sounded over critical to you , I apologize-didn't mean it that way. Just totally surprised-;) I have been accused of being a little picky though.

Bob&Patty
05-10-2009, 01:20 PM
Larry, no offence taken. I just was trying to make point as to why somethings are the way they are. And yes there should be more quality control in lots of things. Every screw should be tight, all the wire nuts should be in place and checked for tightness. Then all systems should be checked for proper operation before leaving the factory. Also a small part of the responsibilty to make sure systems are operating properly falls on the delivering dealer. Just as in the auto industry with a pre-deliver inspection and detailing, I believe that all dealers are paid to do this. Maybe some take the money and run or some really do it like they are suppost to. There is never an excuse for poor workman ship in any industry. But as you can see by many posts, the people that have had the least amount of problems where the ones that did the 3-4 hour PDI's and made the dealer fix things right then and there. Pat and I have had many RV's of all kinds. Some with lots of problems and some with very few. Yes we pay alot of money for these units and should expect better workmanship. But as been said before, if they were perfect could we afford them? What we have going for us is that HL does stand in front, beside and rear of their product to help with repairs as needed. This I have never seen with an RV company before. Larry and others, I have always been open for discussions on any subject about this unless it is mean spirited. I hope this is taken the way it was intended. BTW Larry, I hope you and your family have the good luck and great camping times with your BC as we have had with our BH. Bob:D

boatdoc
05-10-2009, 03:01 PM
To make those area's look like all of us would like them to look would cost us bunches of more money. I'm talking LOT'S of hours, that means LOT'S more money. When you guy's start cleaning up the "behind the scenes area's" put yourself on the clock and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like it either but then again I didn't pay for some body to lay in there for hours upon hours to make things "just right'. Think about it!
People look at me like I have 3 eyes when they ask me to rewire their boats. Well, I could do it in couple of hours but it WOULD look like our trailers. 4x's that price and it will look like it should look. By the way, I don't do the couple hour trick, the right way or the highway!!

circusbear
05-10-2009, 06:29 PM
Holy moly!! I've been so busy packing our new 3250 ts that I hadn't taken that panel off to check things out. We had a small issue with our stereo speakers not working but thats it so far. I guess I will take that panel off and check ours out........

htneighbors
05-11-2009, 08:20 AM
I agree with Bob's comment on the time spent on your PDI. This is my first RV ever and I knew I would start fulltiming in it immediately - so I wanted it as near 'perfect' as I could get! I spent 8 1/2 hours doing my PDI. The dealer had a couple of guys on top of each and every issue I discovered. When I started the PDI, it was freezing outside. (They were washing off the outside of the Cyclone and it was turning to ice!) When it warmed up, they finished with the wash job and I was able to check all my water systems. I definitely believe it was due to the thorough PDI, that I have experienced very minimal "issues" with my 5er. I purchased this 05-08-08 and been in it since 05-09-08! I LOVE MY CYCLONE!! :) :D

Bob&Patty
05-11-2009, 11:15 AM
Gary, how well I know exactly what you are talking about with rewiring cars and/or boats. I have assembled many a hot rods, boats and repaired wiring in normal cars. As for boats and custom type cars. It's $30.00 per hour. I keep a log as to when I started and when it was finished. There was an extra charge if you stood in my hip pocket or tried to help. Also parts where extra. Most vehicles take about 30-40 hours to complete. Running a wire to each componet, times 50-60 wires, plus all the redundant grounds and then putting it in a neat bundle, using split tube and finding places to secure all this organized spagetti is very time consuming. The people that really cracked me up where the guys with fiberglass 32 Ford roadsters that did not have a hood. "I want the engine to run and have the guages work but I dont want any wires to show" HUH:confused: Sorry, but I was never able to find invisable wire or terminals and boy did I try. Bob:D

mrcomer
05-11-2009, 11:25 AM
Bob and Gary,
Thank you so much for bringing this to light. We see this same complaint/comment so many times here but few realize how it translates to dollars. The same dollars most of us are watching so closely these days. If people want neat-and-tidey wiring and plumbing then they better be ready to pay for it.

Thank you,

Mark

Bob&Patty
05-11-2009, 12:06 PM
Mark, I dont think myself or anybody here is making light of Larry's dismay or the problems he found. I just think like some have said, its all about dollars and what these things would cost if custom built. I also think that the guys on the assembly line should take a little more pride in themselves and their work. If they cant cut it, then im sure there plenty of people out of work in Elkhart that would like a job. I also think that HL try's to build the best bang for the buck out there. My 2cts. Bob:D

mrcomer
05-11-2009, 01:09 PM
I completely agree with you Bob.

I wasn't trying to stir the pot.

circusbear
05-11-2009, 05:00 PM
maybe you got a "friday" trailer when everybody was in a hurry to get to the weekend. I took our acess panel off this afternoon and was pleasantly surprised to find our wiring all bundled together and secured to the framework, the plumbing was busy but there were not excessive connections and splices. The only thing I really could complain about was the panel that has the plug,cable outlet and vent for the inverter was a bit flimsy. I put a couple of 1x1's in behind to give a bit of support. Otherwise, so far so good. This will be our shake down weekend so we will see how it goes.

GETnBYE
05-11-2009, 05:14 PM
I have not looked under ours, but we love our 3250TS, hope you enjoy yours.
We hope to be camping soon, waiting for repair from massive hail storm damage.

fpratt
05-11-2009, 05:53 PM
Southern Nights: This is poor workmanship and it really brings to question if I want to continue waithing for my unite which should be coming within the next couple of weeks. I seen something like this on a model at the dealership that had a microwave oven out of it space and the poor workmanship was noted there too. I am really starting to get some second thoughts with or without any long PDI's. This is not what I am looking for in a unit. A lot of these things are now becoming concerns which enclude springs, air ducting, hot water heaters, shower leaks and the like. This is just not good quility control. Floyd

SouthernNights
05-11-2009, 06:31 PM
Ok guys, my intent was not to stir the pot.

I am very much aware what it costs to make things look nice. My complaint is the fact the whole problem with the water heater was a wire nut was not properly tightened and it fell off allowing the wires to seperate.
Most of the wire nuts are not tight, That was also the problem on the 120v side under the cover on the water heater.


Philip Crosby has bulit an entire industry on his definition on quality. He states that quality is "the conformance to the requirements". In other words, if your requiremnts for a watch is to just tell time, which watch is higher quality-a $1,000.00 Rolex or a $20.00 Timex??? In this case the Timex keeps perfect time so the Timex fits the bill for quality. The Rolex is just higher priced.


Where this thought process becomes an issue is when sloppy workmanship starts costing you money in the form of warranty repairs. Will all the systems work wired and plumbed in this manner? Yes, absolutley.
Will they work better if all the wires are loomed together and the plumbing is neater? Probably not, but they may work properly for a longer period of time if it was neater and the workmanship was better. A Plus for the customer and maybe a repeat customer for the manufacturer.


I understand that you cannot mass produce anything by spending countless hours on the product. But I actually enjoy making "things" look clean and neat. Sometimes I think it's a curse though:rolleyes:

I love the fit and finish on the interior. Much better than most trailers of comparable cost. I hope to get many years of enjoyment out of the trailer.

I promise the next thread I start will be will be "lighter" None
Ok, off the soap box now.

boatdoc
05-11-2009, 07:57 PM
Southern Nights: This is poor workmanship and it really brings to question if I want to continue waithing for my unite which should be coming within the next couple of weeks. I seen something like this on a model at the dealership that had a microwave oven out of it space and the poor workmanship was noted there too. I am really starting to get some second thoughts with or without any long PDI's. This is not what I am looking for in a unit. A lot of these things are now becoming concerns which enclude springs, air ducting, hot water heaters, shower leaks and the like. This is just not good quility control. Floyd

Floyd, These "concerns" are not just Heartland, they are industry wide. Most all of us love our Heartland products and work thru the "buggy period". They by far are most bang for the buck. Remember forums are full of problems looking for a fix and the people with no problems just read and give suggestions to fixes and don't very often post how well their unit is performing.
You'll love your's when it gets there!!!

fpratt
05-11-2009, 09:01 PM
boatdoc & SoutherNights: I guess I was a bit pointed; following the forums many items were fixed and or repaired. I perhaps lean in the area of wanting things to be done correctly and not having to go back and repair them to make things right such as wiring hangers, ports through walls with a neat holes where they are not looking like the hole was made with a hammer or something. Sorry if I offended anyone. We are looking forward to our new unit which will replace our H&R Alumiscape. We are looking for happy trails if you will. I surely don't want to cause any problems for HL. Perhaps quility control needs to take a bit better look into the inside workings of their units. Floyd

SouthernNights
05-12-2009, 04:26 AM
boatdoc & SoutherNights: I guess I was a bit pointed; following the forums many items were fixed and or repaired. I perhaps lean in the area of wanting things to be done correctly and not having to go back and repair them to make things right such as wiring hangers, ports through walls with a neat holes where they are not looking like the hole was made with a hammer or something. Sorry if I offended anyone. We are looking forward to our new unit which will replace our H&R Alumiscape. We are looking for happy trails if you will. I surely don't want to cause any problems for HL. Perhaps quility control needs to take a bit better look into the inside workings of their units. Floyd

You didnt offend me. I agree with you:D

bwwalczak
05-12-2009, 07:54 AM
Thank you for all of your input on this discussion. One of the biggest reasons why Heartland has such a loyal following is that we pay attention to our customers (and they pay attention to us!).

Within hours of the first post, Heartland product meetings were based on this discussion. Our production and engineering folks are on top of this.

Together we can keep the dream alive of the best value, best layouts, best in class product available. In 2009 BEST PRODUCT WINS, we intend to be the best. Thank you for your posts.

htneighbors
05-12-2009, 10:03 AM
Thank you for all of your input on this discussion. One of the biggest reasons why Heartland has such a loyal following is that we pay attention to our customers (and they pay attention to us!).

Within hours of the first post, Heartland product meetings were based on this discussion.

AWESOME! Ain't Heartland just TOO COOL! I LOVE MY CYCLONE!!!:D:):cool:

SouthernNights
05-12-2009, 11:57 AM
Thank you for all of your input on this discussion. One of the biggest reasons why Heartland has such a loyal following is that we pay attention to our customers (and they pay attention to us!).

Within hours of the first post, Heartland product meetings were based on this discussion. Our production and engineering folks are on top of this.

Together we can keep the dream alive of the best value, best layouts, best in class product available. In 2009 BEST PRODUCT WINS, we intend to be the best. Thank you for your posts.

WOW, I'm impressed!!!!

Glad to see the factory is watching these forums.

jonesj2
05-12-2009, 12:02 PM
I am not stiring the pot either but I just want to remind everyone here on the forum what happened on our Sundance about 1 month ago. I have posted the link to my original post.

I am asking everyone to check those barrel connections because they are prone to coming off because they are put on too fast or not crimped properly.


//heartlandowners.org/showthread.php?t=9417&highlight=panicing

mrcomer
05-12-2009, 02:08 PM
Thank you for all of your input on this discussion. One of the biggest reasons why Heartland has such a loyal following is that we pay attention to our customers (and they pay attention to us!).

Within hours of the first post, Heartland product meetings were based on this discussion. Our production and engineering folks are on top of this.

Together we can keep the dream alive of the best value, best layouts, best in class product available. In 2009 BEST PRODUCT WINS, we intend to be the best. Thank you for your posts.

Bryan,
Thank you for speaking up and letting us know you are out there and listening. This is just the type of factory involvement that makes Heartland a great company.

Thank you,
Mark

KENNY COCHRAN
05-12-2009, 09:29 PM
I think heartland has to have a happy medium on the wiring, plumbing, drains and etc. I want the best bang for the buck with my heartland and i think they are pretty good at it. If it means getting a "pretty" wiring trough, plumbing all lined up with 90' angles on the pipes and etc, i say keep it as it is. I can easily deal with the mess and i'm sure the rv dealers can sort it out better than me when they have to work on it. I'm not looking for the rolls royce of rv's when i buy a heartland and don't expect to get it for the price we are paying. Keep up the good work. add the actual cost for the "pretty" wiring job and see how many include it as an option.

enthuz
05-13-2009, 07:24 AM
Being in the engineering industry working with multiple vendors (plumbing, electrical and etc.), it is better for each team to be as clean as possible with their work so the next crew can easily do thier job also. Having had to go from a situation like this before to a much more "professional" look (not with trailers though same rules apply), I can say that it is possible to improve with no added cost. We found that it could actually save time. I must admit that at first I wasn't a believer. However after meetings brainstorming and a lot of preplanning to finalize the new SOP, we now install in a picture perfect way and shaved an hour off each job at the same time. Amazingly we also saved on materials cost, because doing it sloppy leads to waste.

talley
05-13-2009, 10:04 AM
A very postive sign that Heartland has monitored these posts and let us know that they, at least in some measure, are willing to respond.

The aftermarket automobile audio industry has standards related to installation, connections and bundling/appearance of wiring. This includes navigation and camera systems. "Behind the scenes" areas and compartments in vehicles can be jam packed; much more limited space that we find in our coaches. They have found that in these areas neatness counts and relates to their reputation with customers. Good installers use the same methods on low end or high end vehicle installs of equipment which often run several thousands of dollars. This is based in good part because they find it more efficient at the time of install.

enthuz
05-13-2009, 10:43 AM
Just the fact that HL recognized owners and prospective owners' concerns like this and look to implement them is such a welcome site. I have sat in many R&D meetings with companies that deliberately dismiss the concerns of the consumers. I love it when a company doesn't let thier growth dictate that small company attention they give to thier customers. At this rate, number one RV OEM is not far off. Now if HL can start making Coaches by the time I'm ready to retire, I will be happy.

htneighbors
05-13-2009, 11:02 AM
...I'm not looking for the rolls royce of rv's when i buy a heartland...

I've already got it! My Cyclone IS the 'Rolls Royce of RVs'!
:D:D:D:D
I LOVE MY CYCLONE!!

mrcomer
05-13-2009, 05:02 PM
Ya gotta love HT's enthusiasm. :)

bigredtruck
05-13-2009, 05:22 PM
Ya gotta love HT's enthusiasm. :)

Makes me smile everytime!

jbeletti
05-13-2009, 05:25 PM
Ya gotta love HT's enthusiasm. :)

I agree - the guy's got an awesome disposition :D

HT - we're gonna miss you in Goshen this June :( Maybe you can make Nashville in July 2010 :eek:

htneighbors
05-13-2009, 05:48 PM
I'm certainly gonna miss you guys, too. :( Postponed taking Micah to Germany until next year, so we can save more $$ to stay there longer. Rene'e is coming with me FT in the Cyclone after Father's Day weekend! :) (Chopper, too!) Just not able to swing the Goshen Rally this year. Maybe Nashville will work out! I LOVE MY CYCLONE!!

(I guess if I'd put that in my signature, I wouldn't have to type it all the time, huh!)

gmc
05-13-2009, 05:48 PM
It's nice to see that HL pays attention to the forum.I believe a neater job would also make it easier for any dealer to work on and even the owner

Empty Pockets
05-16-2009, 11:01 PM
they say a picture is worth a thousand words. go back and look again at the picture. say what you want to,this is SHAMEFUL WORK!!!.looks like a bunch of blind lame workers did this job, that just do not care.I know Heartland listens to everyone and tries to correct these problems,but dont make excuses for this kinda workmanship.

SouthernNights
06-09-2009, 07:31 PM
In case anyone wants to see what is above the belly pan...
Had to remove mine to fix a hydraulic leak on the slide.
It seems the guy who was supposed to tighten the hydraulic lines was out the day my trailer was built.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f340/piratevader1/001-2.jpg
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f340/piratevader1/003-2.jpg)


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f340/piratevader1/003-2.jpg

Nabo
06-09-2009, 10:14 PM
WOW - Hope mine doesn't look that bad!!!

SouthernNights
06-10-2009, 05:14 AM
WOW - Hope mine doesn't look that bad!!!

I don't think this is much different than any other trailer.There have been a couple of posts here of people dropping their belly pan and cleaning up the systems. Their "before" pictures look similar to this.
From an engineering stand point, it's not too bad. The only real problem I see is the routing of the duct work. The teeth on the slide is cutting into the duct work.

From a workmanship standpoint, wow-really poor.

What surprises me is the amount of waste that is allowed to go on. I cleaned up the wires behind my electric panel inside the coach and all the wires and duct work in the basement.
I had about 6 feet of duct work left over from just two ducts and I dont know how many feet (alot) of wire.
Maybe there is a reason for all the excess, but I cant for the life of me figure out what it is. Even allowing for flex and vibration, it just doesnt make sense.
.

geeksrus
06-10-2009, 06:25 AM
Bob and Gary,
Thank you so much for bringing this to light. We see this same complaint/comment so many times here but few realize how it translates to dollars. The same dollars most of us are watching so closely these days. If people want neat-and-tidey wiring and plumbing then they better be ready to pay for it.

Thank you,

Mark

When I purchased my unit, I PAID FOR NEAT & TIDY!

Eh!

DMitch
06-10-2009, 06:49 AM
I currently own a Select Suite by Double Tree, it is suposed to be a top of the line unit. I can tell you it has the same kind of wiring and plumbing mess behind the walls and under the belly pan. I currently have a BH 3580 on order and was hoping that based on the fit and finish of the inside that I would not have this mess in the new one. I don't think there is any excuse for this type of wormanship, if my unit comes in this bad I am not going to be happy. What is the logical reason for any production worker to cut a whole in a wall like we have seen here? It's prob. quicker to drill a neat hole that beat one out of the wall with a hammer, which is what this looks like. Don't intend to rip Heartland apart with my comments, I think the Big Horn is the best bang for the buck on the market, but accoring to these pictures quality control needs some attention.

Uncle Rog
06-10-2009, 10:41 AM
The horn is our fourth RV and is hands down the nicest we have owned.
Have we had a few issues? Yes we have.
However, none of them would have been deal breakers for us, the unit is that nice.
The previous units were no where near as complex as the horn as far as operating systems and features, and we still had issues with them also.
We are planning a few trips this summer and into the fall, and since this is our third season I am going to open up the basement and check out all the connections, fittings, valves and duct work, regular preventative maintenance care.
I think all in all this is the best made unit we have had. notwithstanding a few bumps in the road, what.
My feeling is if you are going to own an RV and you don't have a tool box and a bag full of fuses your best bet would be to make reservtions somewhere instead.
I have also been planning to build a couple of recessed shelves into the bulkhead panels, for quick access stuff.

SouthernNights
06-10-2009, 03:20 PM
The horn is our fourth RV and is hands down the nicest we have owned.
Have we had a few issues? Yes we have.
However, none of them would have been deal breakers for us, the unit is that nice.
The previous units were no where near as complex as the horn as far as operating systems and features, and we still had issues with them also.
We are planning a few trips this summer and into the fall, and since this is our third season I am going to open up the basement and check out all the connections, fittings, valves and duct work, regular preventative maintenance care.
I think all in all this is the best made unit we have had. notwithstanding a few bumps in the road, what.
My feeling is if you are going to own an RV and you don't have a tool box and a bag full of fuses your best bet would be to make reservtions somewhere instead.
I have also been planning to build a couple of recessed shelves into the bulkhead panels, for quick access stuff.

Uncle Rog,
Not sure what you are driving at. My issue is not with preventitive maintenace.

Uncle Rog
06-10-2009, 04:08 PM
I guess I did ramble on a bit.
I have had to clean up basically the same stuff in every unit we have owned.
Since everything works I basically put off messing with it until I had to go in and check things out.
I just accept that every RV is going to need some clean up work to get it the way I want it.
No excuses for HL or any other manufacturer.
This is not the America I grew up in and I have resigned myself to expect less from "Made in the USA".

SouthernNights
06-10-2009, 05:10 PM
Roger,
It is a shame, but you are right. Made in America has changed but it is still better than second best.
I should have read between your lines.

I am not trying to be overly critical of HL. It is by far the prettiest trailer I have ever owned. The floor plan of the 3250 shows very progressive thinking.
But pretty should be more than skin, or interior, deep.
And pretty does not have to cost alot. It took me less than 4 hours to make a new panel, add a seperate ground bar with redundant grounds, add a seprate wire terminal block,(both to get rid of wire nuts that fall off), reroute wires in the basement and reroute the ducts so they are straighter. Think about how fast it could have been when the coach was built. I spent most of my time taking it apart.

I do not know how many coaches HL builds a year. But if they could save 5 dollars per coach by not wasting so much wire, ducting and hydraulic hose, and build 1000 units per year, thats 5k to the bottom line per year.

Why wouldn't you do that???????? That is free money, AND cleans up the coach a little AND makes a better impression on workmanship. Even in a company with 7 digit sales, any CFO would get a smile at a 5k plus with no up front cost.

Do you remember the cars of the 80's? Open the hood and what a mess of hoses and wiring. Perceived quality, or lack of it, helped the Japan automakers get a solid foot hold in this country.

With all the research we did on trailers, finding HL, and seeing what this company stands for and what it has done for the market, I would hate to see the company not succeed due to a few employees who do not take pride in their work.

Uncle Rog
06-10-2009, 09:48 PM
SN, I concur, if the line could eliminate even $100 per rig in excessive wire, ducts and hoses it would make HL or any companies bottom line look a lot brighter, and the basement would be a lot cleaner too!

Point well taken about the 80's............

jmgratz
06-11-2009, 07:03 AM
Hey guys, why not make your suggestions directly to Heartland, they listen and in many instances make the suggested changes. If your suggestions can save them money without any "out of pocket" expenses you will definitely have 'their ear'. Part of the reason for 'the mess' is time constraints. 4 hours to clean up a mess of wires could translate into completing 6-8 units. I asked one of the worker repairing our coach here at the Heartland Rally about where all the extra screws come from and he told me when they are on the production line and drop a screw it is quicker and easier to grab another rather than stop, find and pick up the dropped one. The bottom line is time. Now if there was a group on the assembly line making a wiring harness it could be done neater. I do agree though that the 'bird's nest' is unsightly.

Uncle Rog
06-11-2009, 09:52 AM
jm, point well made again. I think one issue is the speed in which HL makes changes to each model over a fairly short period of time. I ran into a 3670rl at a CG close to me late in '06, the hook ups and UDC were completely different than mine and it was only built a couple of months prior. Our esteemed mentor Forrest has the same unit built around the same time as ours and from his pictures there are variances in his unit also. I guess the point is if HL is going to standardize a plan the mass production principles could be applied and efficiency would be improved.
I have a friend, much more sage in his RV experience then I, has a Lazy Daze MH that is 14 yrs old and is pretty much bullet proof. That being said they have not changed much of anything in their units since '92, save for the chassis and a little cabinet work. That has given them 16+ years to get it right.....................
One last thought, he sure likes the horn!

SouthernNights
06-11-2009, 10:56 AM
Jim,
The factory does follow these posts. The prod. mgr., Bryan has posted on this thread.

porthole
06-14-2009, 01:35 PM
I skipped through the last four pages so hopefully this is not redundant.

First time I saw a picture like the one from the beginning of this thread I made it a point to look in those areas of trailers I was interested in.
If the workmanship is poor in the easily accessible areas imagine in the areas you can't see!

I got to see just about every step of Cyclone production, from bare chassis to completed product during my recent visit, especially the new 3010 which I recently ordered.

Nowhere did I see anything like the rats nest pictured. Had I seen anything like that the Cyclone would have been scratched from my list.

My first career was that of an auto tech (mostly Chrysler corp dealers).

My early mentors instilled in me the notion that "there is never enough time to do it right the first time - but there is always enough time to do it right the second time".

That quote does not refer to the factory screwing it up and then me fixing it but rather when I did work on a vehicle I took the time to do the work correctly the first time.

jgallego
07-04-2009, 08:43 AM
I bought a Big Country 3355 a couple of weeks ago. Took it out on our first campout this week. On the second day I noticed a water leaking under the stairs. Called Katy, Tx camping world and they told me to look for a few things. I was only about 1 hour away from the Camping World that I purchased the 5th wheel. I asked if they could send someone to repair it. They said they were too busy. So I asked if I brought it in since we were out camping if they could look at it right away so I could get back to the rv park. The said it would take at least three days before they could get to it.

So I called an rv repair service. Hopefully I will be reimbursed. They found three water line leaking at the connections. These leak was coming out of the fraime onto the ground. But the main leak in the inside of the rv was coming from the sewer line. They had to replace the line for a permanent repair. Apparantly Heartland needs a lot better quality control.

Jaime

out the car window
11-24-2009, 01:18 AM
we have a different model BC - but hope this can help someone ......
Hi
We have the same mess of wired and hoses in our BC. One thing we found is that we could not get heat to the rear of the unit. Dealer wanted to fit fans and all manner of 'stuff'. In the end I pulled off the covers and looked - the main hose to the living area and beyond was completely flat as it left the furnace (jammed into the support) - whereas the one to the bedroom toilet was positioned to get max heat. So we froze in the living area and ...well no need for details. If you take the cover off to take a look at this - check the hoses of the furnace and see if they need to be switched, shortened or straightened. We have a good heat flow now.... but only when I found the problem and told them what they had to do to fix it.... I am no expert but maybe worth a look....
le

PSF513
11-24-2009, 06:19 AM
Hope you & Sam have good fortune with the new rig. You are correct in that anything can be fixed but the thought of having to take it all apart and do it over is, to me at least, disheartening and daunting. Good luck and hope to see y'all in Rodanthe in April.

sdgrossman1994
02-03-2010, 09:28 AM
Hello to all. I just finished reading this entire thread to see what the common problems that everyone is having with their units when they are new. I just purchased a brand new 2009 Big Country 3490 RB. Now...I know that the 2011's are hitting the street but the price was right, and this floorplan is just what we wanted in the price range we were shopping in.

We are full-timing in our BC and it is just like anything else, embedded with it's own problems. Here are the problems that I have discovered so far.

1. Two broken water fittings on the winterizing valve that soaked the basement :mad:. Lucky for me...I discovered it before I put anything in there, so it was just wet carpet. I repaired them myself as I cannot see taking it to the dealer since I am full-timing in it for just a simple repair.

2. Gray 1 and 2 tanks drain extremely slow. It's been in the 20's and 30's so I have not been able to look into this issue. Hopefully it's not going to have something in there restricting it from flowing.

3. The satellite wiring to the forward bedroom does not work :(. It will not allow a receiver to get a signal. I have not looked into this yet, but I am sure since it's right above the basement that it will be easy to troubleshoot and repair.

4. The area behind the wall in the basement is a mess. There is sawdust and wood shavings, numerous pieces of wiring insulation and wiring pieces from when they stripped the wire ends to install something, and there is no organization in the wiring or plumbing at all :( (I will fix that ;)).

5. The outside speakers are very distorted like they are blown. I don't know for sure yet, because I have not looked into it, and it's in the 30's outside, but from what I can hear, it must have been played loud while on the RV lot and by mistake blown. I will have to look at it and determine what I am going to do about it.

From a Quality Assurance (QA) standpoint, if you are going to streamline a process for efficency and increased quality (cost wise readiness), then it's got to start and be accepted by all members of the process. If HL is going to build a trailer, and they do build a nice unit :), then the QA process must mandate that they route the wiring and plumbing in such a way as to make it as neat and professional during the initial installation to prevent problems from occurring later as a result of this sloppy install.

There is no additional cost associated with installing the wiring into a preplanned correct location or area that would allow for a neater and more professional installation. The technician is already in there doing the work, so what additional cost is associated with just putting in the right way for the first and only time? NONE. This is not a cost factor, it's a fact of not having a process in place that would foster a better install. It's been overlooked and accepted as "This is the way we have always done it" attitude that will keep them installing this way. This can change and I'm sure with the brand manager looking at these forums, that changes will come that will eliminate the sloppy intallations in the future.

There was someone that said he was not going to mess with it because if "It's not broke...don't mess with it" was his response. Well...in retort to that statement...I don't want to be setting up in the middle of the moutains ready for a wonderful RV'ing experience with my family when something is broken from the trip up there and have to listen to my wife complain that it's broken and that I should have checked it. So prevention is the key to success.

The Pre-Delivery Inspection (PDI) should be thorough as it can be. Hook it all up and check it all out with the dealer right there. If they don't make time for you, then demand it. Experienced or not, it's their job to deliver a unit to you that you are happy with. I did not take the time that I wanted to because I was on a schedule to get back home at a certain time. I live four hours from my dealer, so I assumed the risk associated with what I would discover once I set it up. I can repair most anything so I'm not affraid to repair the RV.

Please understand that I don't defend sloppy work, but at the time same time, if it's not part of the process to install it in a way that is neat and professional looking, then it won't change. Our input and feedback to HL is what is going to change the future RV's for the next potential HL owner.

I am enjoying my Big Country and look forward to many years of use out of my RV.

My two cents....

Scott
2009 Big Country 3490 RB :cool:
2005 Ford F-350 Lariet 6.0L Powerstroke DRW Crewcab :cool:

bwwalczak
02-03-2010, 09:37 AM
Thank you for your post sdgrossman1994. Heartland is in a constant struggle to be better, every day, week, month, and year.

I would love to find out where you purchased your 3490RB. This model went out of production in 2008. We have had substantial improvements in the last two years.

Please feel free to let me know via email: bryanw@heartlandrvs.com

wyleyrabbit
02-03-2010, 12:15 PM
Having "reasonably" neat and tidy wiring will cut down on problems and is better. It just is. I'm not suggesting that the wiring should be so good as to be ready to be on display with plexiglass panels in the basement wall and mood lighting in the wiring/plumbing compartments. Although that would be a cool mod, don't you think?

That said, the spaghetti is beyond ridiculous. Seriously? We've got a mix of 12V and 120V wiring completely mixed in with plumbing, and the plumbing has cheap plastic connections that tend to leak. Water and electricity are not a good mix!

I, for one, don't believe having the wiring and plumbing planned out logically before hand, and organized would add much to the price. I find it hard to believe that any actual plumbers or electricians would ever do the kind of work that we see in our very expensive trailers. Are there no minimum code standards required for RVs? Perhaps those of you that think having the job done properly by qualified people would increase the price because then Heartland would have to actually hire and/or train people to do the job properly. Maybe the trailer should cost a few hundred dollars more, if that's what it would take to have qualified people doing these critical jobs.

My dad is a professional electrician and there is no way he would ever do or accept such chaos. This rats nest would never pass inspection by any permit inspector in this part of the developed world, so why is this okay? Cars and trucks are not wired like this, neither are houses. I haven't ever owned a boat, but I find it hard to believe that they'd be like this either. RVs should be required to meed some reasonable standards.

Yes I feel strongly about this embarrassment behind the walls. The people involved need to hang their heads in shame and take some pride in their work and do the job properly. Plumbing needs to be well organized and use brass connections, not plastic that is bound to leak. Electrical needs to meet some level of minimum code and quality, and should be organized properly. This chaos could cause a fire and possibly take people's lives.

Chris

Dave012
02-03-2010, 12:33 PM
If they ran than plumbing and electrical along the sides and top they would certainly free up space for storage. Just seems like a waste.

JohnDar
02-03-2010, 01:04 PM
[QUOTE=wyleyrabbit; ...I haven't ever owned a boat, but I find it hard to believe that they'd be like this either. RVs should be required to meed some reasonable standards...


Chris[/QUOTE]

Even the simple wiring on my 20ft. pontoon is secured, covered in conduit, and easily traced.

I would like to convert the lower, always on, 120V outside outlet to a switched one, but trying to figure out where it's fed and where it goes requires a crystal ball.

SouthernNights
02-03-2010, 04:27 PM
Hi Scott,

I addressed some some of your concerns with what I found on my unit. Maybe it will help a little. One item I had problems with that you did not bring up, but you have probably seen is the duct work from the heater.
The air flow was impeded by all the excess duct. (See original pictures.)
Once they were shortened and rerouted, the air flow is much better. Especially to the rear of the trailer.


Hello to all. I just finished reading this entire thread to see what the common problems that everyone is having with their units when they are new. I just purchased a brand new 2009 Big Country 3490 RB. Now...I know that the 2011's are hitting the street but the price was right, and this floorplan is just what we wanted in the price range we were shopping in.

We are full-timing in our BC and it is just like anything else, embedded with it's own problems. Here are the problems that I have discovered so far.

1. Two broken water fittings on the winterizing valve that soaked the basement :mad:. Lucky for me...I discovered it before I put anything in there, so it was just wet carpet. I repaired them myself as I cannot see taking it to the dealer since I am full-timing in it for just a simple repair.

Had the same issue with the the sink drains in the kitchen sink.


2. Gray 1 and 2 tanks drain extremely slow. It's been in the 20's and 30's so I have not been able to look into this issue. Hopefully it's not going to have something in there restricting it from flowing.

Gray number 2 drained very slow. I had the belly pan off one day and found the valve not opening all way.

3. The satellite wiring to the forward bedroom does not work :(. It will not allow a receiver to get a signal. I have not looked into this yet, but I am sure since it's right above the basement that it will be easy to troubleshoot and repair.

I dont know if mine works or not. I assume it would but never had it hooked up.
4. The area behind the wall in the basement is a mess. There is sawdust and wood shavings, numerous pieces of wiring insulation and wiring pieces from when they stripped the wire ends to install something, and there is no organization in the wiring or plumbing at all :( (I will fix that ;)).

I have spent some time cleaning up the wiring. Even untied the wires that were tied in a knot around the step brace. I have done a little to the plumbing but want to get manifolds like they used to use on the Landmarks before I do anymore.

The wiring does look so much better. Another area you minght want to check is behind the panel where you tank monitor and switches are. Check especially the grounds. I installed ground bars and have redundant grounds. Bad gound connections was the cause for my water heater not working when I got my trailer.
5. The outside speakers are very distorted like they are blown. I don't know for sure yet, because I have not looked into it, and it's in the 30's outside, but from what I can hear, it must have been played loud while on the RV lot and by mistake blown. I will have to look at it and determine what I am going to do about it.

Both of mine were very distorted. I called Jensen and recieved two new speakers - no charge. I do not know why they "blew" They did work fine when it was new, but after driving in alot of rain to the Fall Rally at the OBX last year, they did not work. I think Gus may have had something to do with that.:D

From a Quality Assurance (QA) standpoint, if you are going to streamline a process for efficency and increased quality (cost wise readiness), then it's got to start and be accepted by all members of the process. If HL is going to build a trailer, and they do build a nice unit :), then the QA process must mandate that they route the wiring and plumbing in such a way as to make it as neat and professional during the initial installation to prevent problems from occurring later as a result of this sloppy install.

I agree.

There is no additional cost associated with installing the wiring into a preplanned correct location or area that would allow for a neater and more professional installation. The technician is already in there doing the work, so what additional cost is associated with just putting in the right way for the first and only time? NONE. This is not a cost factor, it's a fact of not having a process in place that would foster a better install. It's been overlooked and accepted as "This is the way we have always done it" attitude that will keep them installing this way. This can change and I'm sure with the brand manager looking at these forums, that changes will come that will eliminate the sloppy intallations in the future.

I can only guess that rapid growth of Heartland may have attributed to some of the poor workmanship in the basement. I hope, for their sake they have initiated steps to have better worknmanship.

There was someone that said he was not going to mess with it because if "It's not broke...don't mess with it" was his response. Well...in retort to that statement...I don't want to be setting up in the middle of the moutains ready for a wonderful RV'ing experience with my family when something is broken from the trip up there and have to listen to my wife complain that it's broken and that I should have checked it. So prevention is the key to success.

Once again, I agree.

The Pre-Delivery Inspection (PDI) should be thorough as it can be. Hook it all up and check it all out with the dealer right there. If they don't make time for you, then demand it. Experienced or not, it's their job to deliver a unit to you that you are happy with. I did not take the time that I wanted to because I was on a schedule to get back home at a certain time. I live four hours from my dealer, so I assumed the risk associated with what I would discover once I set it up. I can repair most anything so I'm not affraid to repair the RV.

Absolutley my fault. I had no PDI, but like you, had plans to reapir anything myself short of the walls falling off.

Please understand that I don't defend sloppy work, but at the time same time, if it's not part of the process to install it in a way that is neat and professional looking, then it won't change. Our input and feedback to HL is what is going to change the future RV's for the next potential HL owner.

I am enjoying my Big Country and look forward to many years of use out of my RV.

My two cents....

Scott
2009 Big Country 3490 RB :cool:
2005 Ford F-350 Lariet 6.0L Powerstroke DRW Crewcab :cool:

JohnDar
02-03-2010, 09:47 PM
If the heat duct to your bedroom droops down in the basement, a simple mod, like I did, will help improve the airflow. I removed about three feet of excess hose by removing that droop,along with a big one behind the basement wall.

Ernest-T
02-04-2010, 06:35 AM
I just bought a 2011 3185bh there has been no improvements in the basement install. Still a sloppy mess. Where is the quality control and craftmanship?

Yianni
02-04-2010, 11:13 AM
I just bought a 2011 3185bh there has been no improvements in the basement install. Still a sloppy mess. Where is the quality control and craftmanship?

This really surprises me. Mine is a 2010 Cyclone 3010 and I have been all through the basement and had the underbelly off. All my wires are neatly run and tied together. The plumbing is neatly run and no leaks since new. Even in the underbelly the wires are in wire loom.
Sorry for your problems. They may have had a lapse.

wyleyrabbit
02-04-2010, 02:56 PM
If the heat duct to your bedroom droops down in the basement, a simple mod, like I did, will help improve the airflow. I removed about three feet of excess hose by removing that droop,along with a big one behind the basement wall.

John,

First, what kind of beer is that in the back of your photo? :angel:

Second, I was seriously considering building a box and covering it in black fabric and enclosing that heating duct. I would really like the basement to look completely finished, and having a duct pipe just hangin' around there just doesn't look right.

Chris

wyleyrabbit
02-04-2010, 03:02 PM
This really surprises me. Mine is a 2010 Cyclone 3010 and I have been all through the basement and had the underbelly off. All my wires are neatly run and tied together. The plumbing is neatly run and no leaks since new. Even in the underbelly the wires are in wire loom.
Sorry for your problems. They may have had a lapse.

Very interesting. Perhaps Heartland has different levels of skill in their different product lines. Or perhaps some employees have near zero skill and absolutely zero pride in doing something properly. And since Heartland seems to continually exhibit no quality control on their trailers before they leave the factory (from my personal experience and observations from other's experience), the dealers are left to fix the mistakes that we the customer find out about, sometimes the hard way.

I have personally lost days of my precious vacation due to sloppy workmanship and Heartland's use of sub-standard building materials (brittle plastic plumbing fittings, for a start).

I really hope that someone at Heartland starts realizing that better quality, both parts and assembly quality, from the start will decrease the cost of paying for dealers to fix problems after the fact and increase sales, both new customers and repeat customers. Time will tell.

My $0.02.

Chris

JohnDar
02-04-2010, 07:03 PM
John,

First, what kind of beer is that in the back of your photo? :angel:

Second, I was seriously considering building a box and covering it in black fabric and enclosing that heating duct. I would really like the basement to look completely finished, and having a duct pipe just hangin' around there just doesn't look right.

Chris

I'll be the first to admit that I'm partial to "Blue." But then, again, if it's offered to me, I'll guzzle any brand :D.

That's not a bad idea, putting an enclosure around that duct. Would prevent possibility of poking it with something while rummaging around in there. It's far enough in that I would not be easily whacking my noggin on it.

wyleyrabbit
02-04-2010, 07:39 PM
John,

Perhaps like other things, I may be underestimating the amount of work and cost involved, but this seems pretty simple.

Anyone have any idea if it's possible to order the same fabric that Heartland uses for the basement? Is this standard stuff that's likely available elsewhere?

Chris

SilverRhino
02-04-2010, 07:45 PM
I've seen very similar material at an auto re-upholstery shop...you might even be able to find something at a large fabric store. Many of them carry fabric that can be use for upholstery or head liners.

Just a couple of ideas..Good Luck!

JohnDar
02-04-2010, 07:54 PM
Building the box and covering it are the simple parts. Finding secure points to mount it to the ceiling may be tricky. In my rig, none of the floor joists are exposed. It's possible that my Zircon stud finder might be able to locate them, though. I'll have to check it out come Spring.

wyleyrabbit
02-05-2010, 12:37 PM
Our trailer is in the shop for deficiencies right now, so I couldn't tell you whether our magic Zircon can find the studs. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't though.

I don't think the box would need to be too heavy, as it's only covering a heating vent. No need to use 1" MDF. ;) What about using some sort of molly bolt or similar?