cabinets not level....... or is it the floor?

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JohnDar

Prolifically Gabby Member
Our previous SOB TT was a "low profile," similar to yours. Fortunately, the spare was mounted on the rear of the rig, not under it. Biggest "beach" I had was due to the low height, the tanks drained slower than molasses because the piping was almost horizontal. At state parks, I had to dig a pit under the sewer pipe so I could use a tote tank to dump. Also didn't take long to realize just how uncomfortable the jack-knife sofa was. The dinette seat padding wasn't designed for long leisurely meals, either. And the thin foam bed mattress bit the dust after the first season.
 

TravelTiger

Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
RanCarr,

I'm not discounting your unhappiness, but I am a little confused by your thought process. No trailer manufacturer can create $$$ worth of product and sell it for $$, and stay in business. Sounds like you have $$$ expectations from a $$ trailer.

I hope your dealer will repair the items that they should have caught before you took delivery, and work toward satisfactory solutions on the other things.


E
 

2psnapod2

Texas-South Chapter Leaders-Retired
If it's in warranty and its actually not correct the way it's suppose to be, I think HL will take care of it. But if you knew this unit had issues, and if you did a good PDI you would have found it un level I would think, then why did you sign for it? It seems you have been mostly un happy with it from the start if I remember right.

Don't take this wrong but it is the reason I took a 9 page checklist, that had me down on the floor checking for scuff marks and holes. Too bad we have to do this, but you do get what you pay for. And I wanted the most for my money.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 

RanCarr

Well-known member
Our previous SOB TT was a "low profile," similar to yours. Fortunately, the spare was mounted on the rear of the rig, not under it.

We know we have to move it from under the hitch thing but don't know where to put it. If we somehow install it on the slide-out tray, it will make the tray/rear drag even faster.

Biggest "beach" I had was due to the low height, the tanks drained slower than molasses because the piping was almost horizontal. At state parks, I had to dig a pit under the sewer pipe so I could use a tote tank to dump. Also didn't take long to realize just how uncomfortable the jack-knife sofa was. The dinette seat padding wasn't designed for long leisurely meals, either. And the thin foam bed mattress bit the dust after the first season.

Yes, draining the sewer water into the BlueBoy or honey bucket isn't easy as our pipe is also too low but that pales in comparison to the other issues. No one could sleep on the jack-knife sofa in our TT. It's too hard and not level when open. They would roll of onto the floor in their sleep. :eek: The bed mattress we have has springs in it and is actually very comfortable, unfortunately it too seems to be losing "loft" but isn't bottoming-out yet. We covered the bottom bunk matteress with a good quality foam matteress that makes it very comfortable. We call the top bunk our attic and use it for storage (laundry, plastic dressers for clothing and towels, cat bed by the window etc). We removed the thin mattress it came with and store it in the outbuilding.
 

RanCarr

Well-known member
If it's in warranty and its actually not correct the way it's suppose to be, I think HL will take care of it. But if you knew this unit had issues,....

We didn't know beforehand. Dealers don't tell you about unlevel cabinets and poor quality seat material, kinked hoses and other issues they may or may not know about.


...and if you did a good PDI you would have found it un level I would think, then why did you sign for it? It seems you have been mostly un happy with it from the start if I remember right.

Walk through? We waked through the one on the lot down in FL. The dealer ordered ors from the plant in Elkhart IN since we live in TN. My husband went up and got it from a dealer there since HL doesn't do business directly with buyers. How could he know the sink would start leaking? The water was dripping under the sink and we had no idea for how long. Fortunately most dripped into a pot we seldom use and was dripping for a long time according to the minerals dried around the bottom. How could he know the hose was kinked inside the wall when there is no water in the TTs when you pick them up? How could he know the seat cushions were so poor quality they would soon flatten? And I'm sure it never crossed his mind to carry several levels with him to check for counters or floors that are not level..... we were told by the dealer in FL that if we paid for the better jalousie windows, HL could add them at the factory = WRONG!!!!!!!

Don't take this wrong but it is the reason I took a 9 page checklist, that had me down on the floor checking for scuff marks and holes. Too bad we have to do this, but you do get what you pay for. And I wanted the most for my money.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

My husband had a list with him but kinked hoses in walls, coushins that flatten after a few hours, the sagging of the awning and how the sun shines right under it, the refusal after ordering it to have better windows installed..... how could he know these things? How could he know how stuffy and uncomfortable it would be in the rain? Did you bring several levels with you to make sure the cabinets and other horizontal surfaces were level? Did you measure the clearance under the TT or make them fill the tanks so you could check for leaks?

Sent form my Computer using W-7 on MozillaFireFox 12.1 :)
 

RanCarr

Well-known member
RanCarr,

I'm not discounting your unhappiness, but I am a little confused by your thought process. No trailer manufacturer can create $$$ worth of product and sell it for $$, and stay in business. Sounds like you have $$$ expectations from a $$ trailer.

I don't understand what you're saying. I didn't ask HL for money nor did I expect them to send me money. I don't expect someone to build a TT for $20,000 and sell it for $18,000 if that's what you mean. I did expect a TT that was better quality for what we paid. The 28BRS isn't a cheap TT for it's size and weight. I compared it to others of it's size and it was several thousand dollars MORE than the rest. I thought that would give us a better TT with less problems so was willing to go the extra $$$.

I hope your dealer will repair the items that they should have caught before you took delivery, and work toward satisfactory solutions on the other things.

E

What could have been caught when my husband drove up to the IN dealer to pick it up? They already had our money in any case as you may not know. Was my husband to rip out the walls looking for kinked hoses and lack of insulation? Insist the dealer put water in the tank to see if it was already leaking under the sink? We're not sure when the leak started but found it AFTER the 1 yr warranty was over. It was apparently leaking for awhile. Was the dealer to let him take it camping a few times to see if the seats flattened and the awning dumped before sagging? To see how dark the rig really is when not parked in the FL sun between two white TT's reflecting light on it? You're suggestion makes no sense since dealers do not do those things or allow those things so don't blame us.

The 1st dealer is 900 miles away in FL and the other dealer is many hundreds of miles away in IN. And as you know I've already spoken to HL about some of these issues and there is nothing they can or will do about them. The TT was out of warranty this past march.
 

CliffP

Well-known member
I couldn't remember anything on our PDI lists about checking to see the countertops are level so I did some digging. Here is every link on the PDI Wiki.

This is from the JPMorgan post //heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/5322-Pre-Delivery-Inspection?p=37468&viewfull=1#post37468 22. Counter Tops - Inspect all counter tops for alignment and fastening. Make sure that any trim pieces that should be there are in fact tight. Check for caulking quality everywhere there may be water, especially edges near a sink. Check the installation of sinks and faucets.

This is from the RV Forum http://www.rvforum.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=41 Counter Tops - Inspect all counter tops for alignment and fastening. Make sure that any trim pieces that should be there are in fact tight. Check for caulking quality everywhere there may be water, especially edges near a sink. Check the installation of sinks and faucets.


This is from the Changing Gears RV Inspection Checklist http://changingears.com/rv-checklist-inspection.shtml
INSIDE: Kitchen
Countertops
Counter top extensions
Sink
Seals and caulking around sink
Stove top, burners, igniters

<tbody>
</tbody>

It seems something should be added to the PDI checklists to include checking to see that the countertops and stove are level when the floor is level.
Maybe some of the more experienced forum members could take a little time to see if other things should be added to these checklists.
Just a thought............
 

TravelTiger

Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
RC

Yes, good dealers will hook up water, sewer electric and let you camp in it a few nights on or near their property after you take delivery to make sure you are happy and all the issues are caught. They also should have tested all the systems before you did a PDI and caught kinked hoses and water leaks and un-level counters.

Regarding the NT "design flaws", I think those are not realistic expectations. As far as the tire being too low, it must be where you are choosing to take your rig. We never had an issue with our NT scraping, but then we were careful to avoid areas where this might occur. Our cushions did loose some of their cushiness in the two years we had ours, but we are "larger than average" folks... I'm sure they were designed for a normal sized person using their trailer 4-6 times a year, and we were using it more than that. I am pretty sure the NT is not designed for full-time indoor-living. They expect you to enjoy outside your camper, too! And coaches much more expensive can experience the condensation issue. It's the nature of the construction--the walls are made of essentially styrofoam. I'm not you are using the awning per the awning manufacturer's specs. Do they endorse leaving the awning out during rain?!

I think you are placing the blame in the wrong place, expecting perfection from HL when no trailer, basically a mobile home on wheels, built in a matter of days, can be without flaw and the quality of a stick&brick home. The RV manufacturers depend on the dealers to take care of issues, before they sell. Unfortunately, some dealers prefer to put the burden on the consumer to find issues, after the sale. So it becomes buyer beware, and you must take responsibility in the buying process.... I'm sorry you found such a poor dealer to work with. And they mislead you about the windows, too!?!

I'm so sorry they have made you so unhappy about your trailer.

E
 

2psnapod2

Texas-South Chapter Leaders-Retired
Sounds like to me, you are just totally unhappy with the TT you bought. If you did not like what it had why did you buy it? This just does not make since to me. I am very sorry that you did this, but it is my past experience that if you don't like something, everything about it make you unhappy with it. So could this be maybe causing you to look at each of these things in a way that makes them worse than they really are? I know HL does do quality control and you saying they don't at all is misleading to others. Your unit must be the one that got through with every issue none to man. I am sorry you bought the domed unit.
 

kakampers

Past Heartland Ambassador
Sounds like to me, you are just totally unhappy with the TT you bought. If you did not like what it had why did you buy it? This just does not make since to me. I am very sorry that you did this, but it is my past experience that if you don't like something, everything about it make you unhappy with it. So could this be maybe causing you to look at each of these things in a way that makes them worse than they really are? I know HL does do quality control and you saying they don't at all is misleading to others. Your unit must be the one that got through with every issue none to man. I am sorry you bought the domed unit.

Yep...just what I was thinking...buyer's remorse.....
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Rancarr,

Have you looked at sites like this? It looks like you could get a very firm, long-lasting piece of replacement foam for your cushions for less than $100 (I'm guessing a size of something like 22" x 48" x 4"). There are a lot of companies on the web filling custom foam orders in various foam types. I don't know if this is the best or least expensive company - it's just the 1st I looked at. They will also make custom coverings out of various fabrics, including sundowner which is very durable, although a bit expensive.

I understand you're disappointed in the quality of the cushions you have, and in Heartland's response. To be fair to Heartland, I don't think it's reasonable to ask them to redesign the cushions for you. I don't think any company in any industry would do that.

Eventually, you need to decide either to replace the cushions or live with them. If you decide to replace them, and if Heartland at one time offered to replace the cushions, maybe they'd instead be willing to help you with part of the cost of replacing the foam with something more suitable to your needs. It's iffy, but maybe they'd make some accomodation in place of sending you replacement cushions. Can't hurt to ask.

Something else to consider: if you buy new foam, you might go to a Fabric Store and see if one of the regular customers might sew custom covers for you at a reasonable price.
 

RanCarr

Well-known member
Rancarr,

Have you looked at sites like this? It looks like you could get a very firm, long-lasting piece of replacement foam for your cushions for less than $100 (I'm guessing a size of something like 22" x 48" x 4"). There are a lot of companies on the web filling custom foam orders in various foam types. I don't know if this is the best or least expensive company - it's just the 1st I looked at. They will also make custom coverings out of various fabrics, including sundowner which is very durable, although a bit expensive.

The closest prices I found were in the $500+ range for two seat cushions the size I need plus covers for them and matching covers for the backrests. And that is sight-unseen which means there is no way to tell the quality of what you're buying. After this really bad experience, how can I tell unless I have and use them for awhile?

I understand you're disappointed in the quality of the cushions you have, and in Heartland's response. To be fair to Heartland, I don't think it's reasonable to ask them to redesign the cushions for you. I don't think any company in any industry would do that.

To be fair to the buyers who aren't exceedingly wealthy, who can't afford to replace the poor quality ones provided for $500 and up after a few camping trips, they should/could provide cushions people can sit on without bottoming out and flattening. And no, we are not XXL size people. You are confused if you think I'm the person who said they should "redesign cushions" just for them. Perhaps another poster made the suggestion. No redesigning is necessary. Think different supplier, or better quality from the same supplier. :)

Eventually, you need to decide either to replace the cushions or live with them. If you decide to replace them, and if Heartland at one time offered to replace the cushions, maybe they'd instead be willing to help you with part of the cost of replacing the foam with something more suitable to your needs. It's iffy, but maybe they'd make some accomodation in place of sending you replacement cushions. Can't hurt to ask.

I already spoke to someone there and they will replace them with the SAME cushions. That means, every few camping trips, we would need new cushions as the new ones flattened and bottomed out.

Something else to consider: if you buy new foam, you might go to a Fabric Store and see if one of the regular customers might sew custom covers for you at a reasonable price.

The only fabric store we have here is JoAnns in another town. All I've ever run into there are quilters. Yes, if I were wealthy and money was no object, I could hire a professional to make the cushions and custom covers plus matching covers for the backrests. But we're not. We budget carefully so that we can afford to go camping and snow-bird in the winter (at $395 mo in small private resort where the blue collar go). Usable cushions should have come with the 28BRS or the dealers should be required by HL to tell the potential buyer those in the TT unit are just for SHOW, not to use, that real usable ones can be bought afterward for $500 and up.

And with the floor level and everything else off-kilter, we'd be nuts to put another $500 to $700 into this TT.
 

RanCarr

Well-known member
I couldn't remember anything on our PDI lists about checking to see the countertops are level so I did some digging. Here is every link on the PDI Wiki.

This is from the JPMorgan post //heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/5322-Pre-Delivery-Inspection?p=37468&viewfull=1#post37468 22. Counter Tops - Inspect all counter tops for alignment and fastening. Make sure that any trim pieces that should be there are in fact tight. Check for caulking quality everywhere there may be water, especially edges near a sink. Check the installation of sinks and faucets.

That was checked and found satisfactory. The calking in the kitchen and bathroom looked and still looks good. But nonetheless the faucet started to leak somewhere under the sink. :(

This is from the RV Forum http://www.rvforum.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=41 Counter Tops - Inspect all counter tops for alignment and fastening. Make sure that any trim pieces that should be there are in fact tight. Check for caulking quality everywhere there may be water, especially edges near a sink. Check the installation of sinks and faucets.

That was also done. But he didn't check to see if the counter tops and the floor were level to each other. It never crossed his mind, or mine, they'd be added on a slant. That something like that could even happen in a new RV. In the years I've camped and those I've been on these RV forums, no one ever mentioned to check the floors to counter-tops for both being level. We'll have to live with the floor tilted because trying to cook and eat and make coffee when everything is running down to one end of the pans, pots, cups and dishes just wont work. Because the bathroom door keeps flapping back into the bunk area and is in our way, we bought a cat door to put in the bathroom door today. This is so we can close the bathroom door and the cats still get to the litterpan in the shower. It was that or remove the door altogether. We have a floor to ceiling curtain hung between the fridge and cabinet across from it for privacy and more room when showering and or getting dressed. The curtain works well.


This is from the Changing Gears RV Inspection Checklist http://changingears.com/rv-checklist-inspection.shtml
INSIDE: Kitchen
Countertops
Counter top extensions
Sink
Seals and caulking around sink
Stove top, burners, igniters

<tbody>
</tbody>

It seems something should be added to the PDI checklists to include checking to see that the countertops and stove are level when the floor is level.
Maybe some of the more experienced forum members could take a little time to see if other things should be added to these checklists.
Just a thought............

We never saw mention anywhere of checking the countertops/stove/sink/bar to see if they were level to the floor when the floor is level. This is something people better start checking for. Because this would be so hard and time consuming to fix for a dealer, the buyer would do better to reject the unit and demand one with everything on the level. You can be sure when the day comes to replace this TT, and I would do it now if my husband would agree to it, that will be the first thing I'll check. And to make sure the frame isn't "off" in some way, I'll have a handful of small levels with me.

Another thing to check and see if it's level is the slides. I heard several mentions of level floors but slides that sagged when out.

It's not just the slanted countertops and the leaks under the sink.... it's when it's all added up, the bellying awning, the kitchen window an average size women can't reach, awning windows you can't adjust, kinked hose in outside shower, the stabilizers destroyed the first few trips out, the chronic dragging of the spare or back bumper/tray, the darkness inside from the smoke windows, the damp mattress when the heat is on and more.... all of it ....that makes us a little upset.

I hope they ARE added to the checklist. Maybe if people start checking and refusing delivery of these units with tilted cabinets, the mfgs will have better quality control right inside the factory. Better checking before the unit rolls out the door....
 

2psnapod2

Texas-South Chapter Leaders-Retired
I don't for sure but the last I was told the North Trail was not rated for Full Time or even Part time. So after staying in your NT for the winter, yes I would think that the seat cushions not holding up would be normal. I believe that they are good enough for just about every other NT user. Why are yours different?
 

tmcran

Well-known member
Sounds like to me, you are just totally unhappy with the TT you bought. If you did not like what it had why did you buy it? This just does not make since to me. I am very sorry that you did this, but it is my past experience that if you don't like something, everything about it make you unhappy with it. So could this be maybe causing you to look at each of these things in a way that makes them worse than they really are? I know HL does do quality control and you saying they don't at all is misleading to others. Your unit must be the one that got through with every issue none to man. I am sorry you bought the domed unit.

WOW! I bet your family and friends that work for HL thank you for your post and assuring all that there is QC.
 

jnv

Active Member
I don't for sure but the last I was told the North Trail was not rated for Full Time or even Part time. So after staying in your NT for the winter, yes I would think that the seat cushions not holding up would be normal. I believe that they are good enough for just about every other NT user. Why are yours different?

The seat cushions in our NT flattened out and the fabric puckered before the end of our first camping season, which is short in Wisconsin. We had just the bottom seat cushions replaced with better quality foam and fabric. I won't admit to what it cost :). I remember when there was a Northtrail forum (before it went to facebook) and other owners also posted complaints and did replacements.
 

2psnapod2

Texas-South Chapter Leaders-Retired
WOW! I bet your family and friends that work for HL thank you for your post and assuring all that there is QC.

No direct contact with HL. I just know that the company does have a quality control department. It might not be the best but to say they have none is misleading to others.

They even just recently changed how they do it. Hopefully it is a better system and they can have less expensive costs in the long run.

I just believe that bashing a company for a poor PSI and also not identifying if you unit is way off level prior to a year is wrong. They choice to buy the unit and now since they are unhappy with it, either they need to sale it or trade for another unit and stop bashing or live with it. JMHO!!!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 

westxsrt10

Perfict Senior Member
It appears you want a semi-custom TT as most of us do. There are fairly easy fix'es for most of your (don't like) issues if you decide to spend time, effort and a small amount of cash.
This forum can help you one issue at a time. Example--- the seat cushions can corrected for as little as $20. I added 2" foam layer to the existing foam. Its easy, just un-zip and install using baby power on the foam. The cushions are tight now and 1" thicker overall, makes the back cushion easy on the back.
 

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CliffP

Well-known member
That was checked and found satisfactory. The calking in the kitchen and bathroom looked and still looks good. But nonetheless the faucet started to leak somewhere under the sink. :(



That was also done. But he didn't check to see if the counter tops and the floor were level to each other. It never crossed his mind, or mine, they'd be added on a slant. That something like that could even happen in a new RV. In the years I've camped and those I've been on these RV forums, no one ever mentioned to check the floors to counter-tops for both being level. We'll have to live with the floor tilted because trying to cook and eat and make coffee when everything is running down to one end of the pans, pots, cups and dishes just wont work. Because the bathroom door keeps flapping back into the bunk area and is in our way, we bought a cat door to put in the bathroom door today. This is so we can close the bathroom door and the cats still get to the litterpan in the shower. It was that or remove the door altogether. We have a floor to ceiling curtain hung between the fridge and cabinet across from it for privacy and more room when showering and or getting dressed. The curtain works well.




We never saw mention anywhere of checking the countertops/stove/sink/bar to see if they were level to the floor when the floor is level. This is something people better start checking for. Because this would be so hard and time consuming to fix for a dealer, the buyer would do better to reject the unit and demand one with everything on the level. You can be sure when the day comes to replace this TT, and I would do it now if my husband would agree to it, that will be the first thing I'll check. And to make sure the frame isn't "off" in some way, I'll have a handful of small levels with me.

Another thing to check and see if it's level is the slides. I heard several mentions of level floors but slides that sagged when out.

It's not just the slanted countertops and the leaks under the sink.... it's when it's all added up, the bellying awning, the kitchen window an average size women can't reach, awning windows you can't adjust, kinked hose in outside shower, the stabilizers destroyed the first few trips out, the chronic dragging of the spare or back bumper/tray, the darkness inside from the smoke windows, the damp mattress when the heat is on and more.... all of it ....that makes us a little upset.

I hope they ARE added to the checklist. Maybe if people start checking and refusing delivery of these units with tilted cabinets, the mfgs will have better quality control right inside the factory. Better checking before the unit rolls out the door....

For the record, I was suggesting that checking to see that the countertops, table, and stove are level should be added to the PDI's on the Wiki. We never checked ours. The seem right and I am not going to put a level on them at this point. Well, maybe not.........
 
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