DEF Information

[jassson007]

Interesting Gary as what I understood the regen to do was burn off the soot collected in the DPF similar to the old catalytic converters and the DEF fluid was used to control NOx in the emissions. I was under the impression that they were two separate things/systems. If not this sounds like a great thing dodge has come up with and to me could be a game changer as far as fuel mileage is concerned.


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[Doublegranch]

Andy:

It is my understanding it still has a cat, DPF, NOX, Muffler in that order...I will definitely ask a lot more questions next week when I get the new truck.
I did ask the Service Mgr how long the DPF was good for as I was told on my 2011 anytime after 100,000 mile expect to have it cleaned or replaced.
He said he has a 2015 in for service with 250,000 miles and no issues so far.

 

[IronJ]

The literature I had from dodge on the new model indicted it not only had all the standard fare for exhaust, but that the dpf was cleaned during a standard regen procedure..(heat generated by diesel) there is no way i see def as part of that process either chemically or as a substrate to generate the heat required......but then again I always said I would never own a diesel because they are loud and stinky.....lol

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[IronJ]

And furthermore my f250 is tuned and you can rest assured that if/when the dpf clogs or I start having to deal with emissions issues all that junk is gone and will not be replaced...just sayjng..haha

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[Doublegranch]

By the way my 2011 was deleted at 60,000 miles. The dealer continued to service it and was the one suggesting I do it.
My MPG increased by a lot, my oil changes every 5,000 were no longer black mud coming out and the Truck runs so GOOOOOD...
I use a Smarty SR tunner, in fact I was a beta tested for Smarty on all the new tunes they came out with.

I won't delete the new truck but they do now have a tuner for it that removes the DEF as well.
One truck customer at the dealership has a 2015 deleted and getting 26mpg on a 5500 Ram. "Again that is according the Service Mgr"

 

[jdfishing]

DEF for diesel engines:
Thought I would share some information on DEF as this will be my first experience with it when my new 2016 Ram arrives.
In asking questions on how it works etc the service Mgr and owner of the dealer stated that DEF has a shelf life and must be kept cool....not cold just cool under 86*.
That information was also printed on the Mopar DEF bottle I reviewed.
For HOC members living or traveling in warmer climates, you do not want to keep extra bottles of DEF in the back of your truck exposed to the warm sun or heat for long periods of time.
Heat will cause the DEF to become ineffective and spoil within 30 days. As a test they conducted, they poured a little DEF on the back concrete drive, out of the sun, and it turned to white powder. This will mess up your DEF injector. Should this happen, the cleaning method is to use straight water in your DEF Tank and it will clean the DEF System.
Also noted was the recent visit by the Ram Factory Rep who stated if you run out of DEF you may put water into the DEF Tank to get you to your next DEF supply. You are not to run straight water for long periods of time as it will corrode your system. But in an emergency and short periods, water will get you to your next stop.
I also told them about the posting of I think was a Ford owner puting DEF in the Diesel fuel tank and costing him like $7,000. If this happens on the new Ram's it is only a $700 expense. They drain the tank, change out the water separator filter and you are back on the road. DEF will crystallize the water separator filter like a rock in the new Ram and while DEF will not get into the engine it will shut you down.
Finally I was told unless I am on a long trip do not keep my DEF tank full...Keep it around 1/2 full as when you replenish DEF with new, it will also keep the old DEF active and not spoil. It can heat up and spoil just sitting inside the tank if in the truck over a 30 day period at above 86*. Just thought I would pass this along...I am sure there will be lots of posts and other opinions. Just understand these are not my words, they came from the Dealer and Ram Factory Rep.

Thanks for bringing the subject up. I'm about to become a first time diesel owner of a 2016 RAM and appreciate all the info I can get.

 

[Doublegranch]

Well I guess our learning curve could both be "baptism by fire" in taking the plunge.
When do you pick up the new Ram? Best of luck, it is a wonderful vehicle.
I ordered the new Aisin Trans, my first auto trans in my entire life....I was talked into it...hope I like it.

 

[bobca1]

Interesting Gary as what I understood the regen to do was burn off the soot collected in the DPF similar to the old catalytic converters and the DEF fluid was used to control NOx in the emissions. I was under the impression that they were two separate things/systems. If not this sounds like a great thing dodge has come up with and to me could be a game changer as far as fuel mileage is concerned.


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Yes that is how I understand the system works, 2 separate processes one to reduce soot (the dpf), and the other for the NOx (DEF SCR).

Here's a good article I found that explains all the components and when used, on the cummins.
http://m.cumminshub.com/emissions.html

It also talks about passive vs active regen. It's the active regen cycle that uses some extra fuel to heat exhaust to burn off the dpf, and so would negatively impact mileage. Would be interesting to know how often the active cycle is engaged... Maybe only when engine is not under significant load eg idling or running empty?

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[bobca1]

Yes that is how I understand the system works, 2 separate processes one to reduce soot (the dpf), and the other for the NOx (DEF SCR).

Here's a good article I found that explains all the components and when used, on the cummins.
http://m.cumminshub.com/emissions.html

It also talks about passive vs active regen. It's the active regen cycle that uses some extra fuel to heat exhaust to burn off the dpf, and so would negatively impact mileage. Would be interesting to know how often the active cycle is engaged... Maybe only when engine is not under significant load eg idling or running empty?

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Here's an article that claims active regeneration claims the fuel consumption increase is less than 0.1% for "most applications". But this is an article for off Highway applications probably not applicable here, but interesting nonetheless.

http://cumminsengines.com/cummins-particulate-filter

Anyone aware of comparison done with /without active regen in real life truck application? I just see anecdotal statements that regen kills mileage. How much really?

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[IronJ]

Well..on my ford the active regen process occurs when the dpf reaches a certain point. ..I cannot remember the percent for the life of me now..though! !..I'll look...

Anyway, the regen process is only active while certain parameters are met.. (ie engine temp and load/speed)..so it won't do it cold or at idle.. generally when the regen kicks off I lose 2mpg for an avg of 10-12 min....mine will regen on avg every 10 days on my daily driver with all city miles.

Sooo...I have not put a pen to paper, but in the grand scheme 2mpg for 10min is not a whole lot of extra fuel..I would imagine most regen cycles are similar regardless of manufacturer.

I only have 32k on my 2012 250 and 2500 on my 2015 350 but I intend to fully delete the 12 at 50k. Parts sitting in my garage....truth be told, the thing runs great and makes gobs of power with just a small tune and the dpf still on!...

If it ain't broke don't fix it.....but if/when it breaks it's getting fixed all right....!!!..no dpf/def/or egr....then I can compare the real world performance/mileage increase

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[Doublegranch]

I was in the Ram Dealer today and asked how the new DEF works on the 2016 Ram...This is what I was told:

The Def injector shoots a small amount of DEF into the Cat. This is a new designed Cat that is made up of certain properties that when mixed with the DEF fluid creates a chemical reaction when attaching itself to the Exhaust particles. The particles then enter into the DPF and are heated up by the chemistry that took place in the Cat. This heating up then burns off the exhaust particles and goes into the NOX then the muffler and out the tail pipe.

There is no diesel fuel used in this new "regen" as you would call it. It is all done by chemistry. So in essence it is in the Regen mode all the time as DEF continues to be injected while the engine is running.

As one member posted about Ram coping the process from Ford, I am not sure this is correct on the NEW 2016 RAM...As this system the Ram is using was invented by Honda.

 

[IronJ]

I was referring to the engine technologies that ford did...not the exhaust...

That def sounds neat, but wonder how much def that's gonna use??..

I was a chemist (biochem technically ) so I am super interested in this stuff!!....

And then how I can nefariously tweak it for my own benefit and power!..lol...



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[MTPockets]

My Ford 6.7 diesel uses about 5 gal of DEF from 4000 - 6000 miles, depends on how much towing. More towing miles = more DEF. if zero towing, I'm sure it would exceed the 6000 miles, but I haven't gone that far without some tow miles.

 

[Bohemian]

I was referring to the engine technologies that ford did...not the exhaust...

That def sounds neat, but wonder how much def that's gonna use??..

I was a chemist (biochem technically ) so I am super interested in this stuff!!....

And then how I can nefariously tweak it for my own benefit and power!..lol...



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Reaction is: CO(NH2)2 (urea) + NOx -> N2 + H20 + CO2 aided by a catalyst

I will leave balancing so you can have some fun.

 

[IronJ]

Any idea what the catalyst metals are in the cat?.interested in what the heat reaction is that regens the dpf as well...I am googling it, but no luck....YET!!.

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[Bohemian]

Any idea what the catalyst metals are in the cat?.interested in what the heat reaction is that regens the dpf as well...I am googling it, but no luck....YET!!.

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Regen reaction is very simple. oxidation by O2, burning.

 

[IronJ]

Regen reaction is very simple. oxidation by O2, burning.

Hmmm

Exhaust aftertreatment equipment includes a 2.1L close-coupled catalyst made by Emitec. It has elliptical metallic guts arranged at 300 cells per square inch (cpsi). It works by taking oxygen, hydrocarbons, and carbon monoxide from the exhaust and converting them to water and CO2 by means of a chemical reaction. Next down the exhaust pipe is a 5.2L NOx absorber catalyst made by Corning. It has a cordierite and barium oxide substrate arranged at 300 cpsi. Since a diesel engine usually operates in an excess-air mode, it is impossible to control NOx with a traditional three-way catalytic converter, which only works in a rich-fuel mode. So instead, under lean conditions, a NOx absorber turns NOx into barium nitrate, which sticks to the surface of the substrate inside the absorber. When all the surface area is covered, the computer tells the engine to go into rich mode, eliminating all the oxygen in the exhaust system. This releases the barium nitrate and turns it into nitrogen gas and water vapor as it reacts with the precious metals.

Another job of the NOx absorber is to deal with sulfur, which can poison the catalyst. Sulfur is a reason why the exhaust system needs to generate high temperatures during regeneration. Finally, there is the (9.4L) catalyzed diesel particulate filter made by NGK. It has a cordierite substrate at 200 cpsi. Its job is to filter all the engine's particulate matter and then burn it up during regeneration.



Read more:*http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1002dp-6-7l-cummins-diesel-engine/#ixzz3ipfrdSVw

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[MTPockets]

Hmmm

Exhaust aftertreatment equipment includes a 2.1L close-coupled catalyst made by Emitec. It has elliptical metallic guts arranged at 300 cells per square inch (cpsi). It works by taking oxygen, hydrocarbons, and carbon monoxide from the exhaust and converting them to water and CO2 by means of a chemical reaction. Next down the exhaust pipe is a 5.2L NOx absorber catalyst made by Corning. It has a cordierite and barium oxide substrate arranged at 300 cpsi. Since a diesel engine usually operates in an excess-air mode, it is impossible to control NOx with a traditional three-way catalytic converter, which only works in a rich-fuel mode. So instead, under lean conditions, a NOx absorber turns NOx into barium nitrate, which sticks to the surface of the substrate inside the absorber. When all the surface area is covered, the computer tells the engine to go into rich mode, eliminating all the oxygen in the exhaust system. This releases the barium nitrate and turns it into nitrogen gas and water vapor as it reacts with the precious metals.

Another job of the NOx absorber is to deal with sulfur, which can poison the catalyst. Sulfur is a reason why the exhaust system needs to generate high temperatures during regeneration. Finally, there is the (9.4L) catalyzed diesel particulate filter made by NGK. It has a cordierite substrate at 200 cpsi. Its job is to filter all the engine's particulate matter and then burn it up during regeneration.



Read more:*http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1002dp-6-7l-cummins-diesel-engine/#ixzz3ipfrdSVw

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I was just about to say the exact same thing....... LOL

 

[pegmikef]

This all hurts my head. I just add the stuff when my system check says it is less than half full. I also carry a spare gallon for emergencies and have never had a problem adding it in the last four years with my F250 and my current truck.

 

[Doublegranch]

Man I am happy the dealer didn't have the ability to tell me all this stuff in detail...my head was already swimming with just a simple explanation....
Like a previous post stated, when my gauge tells me I am low, I will add a gallon. If I am towing on along trip I will fill it up...
I will let you know how much DEF it uses as my break in trip will be to the Colo Rally in Sept.
This certainly has been an interesting post and thanks for everyone's comments.
My Truck is in the Phoenix Rail yard and I should get it by mid next week.
Meanwhile, I sold my 2011 and this is the first time in my life since my tour in Viet Nam that I have not owned a vehicle...
Can you just see my Aussie girls riding in the bucket of my Kubota going to town until my new truck arrives.