Electrical Shock while washing RV

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Administrator
Staff member
From reading the thread it appears that a non contact testing device is being used. IMO put it back in the tool box. They have their uses but this is not one of them. In 30+ years of electrical/controls work nothing replaces a good Simpson/Fluke meter. Please do the checks with one for verification. I would never check a circuit with the non contact device in a critical situation as this. Ground or no ground use the multi-meter.
Help this electrical lay person, me, understand.
If there is no known good ground how would a multi-meter be used to check for a hot skin?
Testing for current with a non contact tester would, in my mind, be the first step, then use my multi-meter to locate the problem.

Peace
Dave
 

danemayer

Well-known member
From reading the thread it appears that a non contact testing device is being used. IMO put it back in the tool box. They have their uses but this is not one of them. In 30+ years of electrical/controls work nothing replaces a good Simpson/Fluke meter. Please do the checks with one for verification. I would never check a circuit with the non contact device in a critical situation as this. Ground or no ground use the multi-meter.

gregw,

Most people on this forum, including me, are not electricians. We may not have been trained to the extent you have been and we certainly don't have your expertise.

But I think the point of using a non-contact tester is that, as an amateur, in a situation where something I'm about to touch might be hot, I can make a determination before touching. For example, when I am investigating power issues, I want to ensure the box is not hot before I open it. When I'm going to work on an outlet or j-box connection, I turn off the breaker but also use the tester to verify that the circuit is off.

In the case of hot skin, where just about anything touched might be hot, it's useful to know what's hot and what's not.

But I agree with you that a good meter is essential to running down electrical problems.
 

gregw

Member
Dan,
I do agree with you. Use the non contact for pre-verification on a circuit. The issue is the non contact type device will lie to you. It will at times tell you that you have voltage when you do not and tell you that you do not when you do.

NEVER knowingly try to work a live circuit without first using the multi-meter. Through the post here there have been plenty of testing and it seems that multi-meter is not being used because the thought of not having a ground. That would be one of the best reasons to get out the multi-meter. Not trying to pass judgment here. But if there is a hot skin situation it is dangerous and you should proceed with extreme care. Sorry to stir things a bit and maybe be hyper critical but you never think its going to be you that get hurt or worst case killed.

Also thinking that it was being talked about testing with out the unit being plugged in to a live electrical circuit. If that is so this would indicate that the voltage present would be DC. If the OP was shocked standing on a fiberglass ladder that is suspect also.
 

SNOKING

Well-known member
Regarding the fiberglass ladder! Did you have the hose in your hand. Dan is correct. When I climbed our Loran C tower in Thailand while in the USCG, we shutdown the transmitter while mounting and dismounting the tower(did this later at Point Arena Loran A station). Later an engineer confirmed that the towers could be mounted and dismounted on fiberglass ladders while hot. Station in Thailand had 16,500 Volts with 4.5 amps at the finals, putting out 400 mega watts to the tower.

So ether the ladders was really wet or OP had another path to ground AKA hose etc.

I would put a 30 to 15 amp adapter on the cord and plug it into a GFCI outlet. If it is the trailer, it should trip right away.
 
Make sure your Ground wire (Green) and Neutral wire (White) are not bonded (Tied Together) anywhere on your RV.
The only place this should happen is at the source, where your Shore Power Cord is plugged into.
You have a floating Neutral on your RV.
I agree with gregw on putting away your noncontact tester.
Working for DTE Energy we were forbidden to have or use noncontact type testers because of false readings.
Please, for your own safety and that of others have this looked at by a Licensed Electrician.
Ameteurs should not be looking for a problem such as this.
This is a very Serious issue, treat it accordingly, this stuff will kill you.


Hockster
 

CDN

B and B
A few words used here.

Amatuer, leave it alone if out of your league
2017 model should be under warranty
Hi-Pot, this is a test performed to look for exactly the issue the OP has.

Stop, go to dealer and get them to fix it.

Having been in broadcasting world wide working with all types of power systems and verifying their operation there are was too many variables here for layman to figure out.

Worst case hire a industrial electrician to check it out, some guy that does motor starts, controls and such, he will understand leakage
 

wdk450

Well-known member
The non-contact voltage tester has its place alongside your DVM in your electrical tools kit. The non-contact voltage tester detects the presence of AC voltage capable of shocking you by detecting a radiated electromagnetic field, much as a radio can detect RF fields. The non-contact detector needs no good ground, where the DVM does. If you are uncertain if a good ground is present when using a DVM, you have to probe around OTHER nearby metal grounded stuff to try to measure between the 2 possible ground points. This is not easily feasible in an RV park. The next space's outlet pedestal may be 30 feet (or more) away. Many of the parks use plastic piping in the ground which will make water faucets non-grounded, so you can't be sure about the grounded status of the water faucet.

I experienced a case of hot skin while staying in an RV park in coastal Oregon several years ago. I didn't detect this until I leaned on my axle hubs while preparing to depart this park after several week's stay, and got a mild shock. I wasn't as religious back then as I am now about checking out the electrical power BEFORE hooking up my shorepower cord. I DID have my newly purchased non-contact tester, and testing of the park pedestal showed that the ENTIRE METAL STRUCTURE WAS HOT. I couldn't have easily measured this to a true ground with a DVM without 30 feet plus of extender cable, and a 2nd person to make the connection at the good ground with the extension cable while I used the DVM at the bad electrical pedestal. Contrast all this measurement setup to simply getting my non-contact tester close to the bad pedestal and looking if the neon light to comes on.

I am a retired Hospital Biomedical Electronics Technician of over 40 years working experience.
 

weekender01

Well-known member
Great feedback and I am at the end of my testing as any next steps is beyond my level of expertise. I will try plugging into a GFCI outlet to see what happens. My suspicion is that nothing will happen.

Given all the remarks about the non contact tester I may actually be getting some false readings, but I do know that it only beeps when the converter breaker is turned on and is most likely charging the battery since this morning I would get a light on the tester and other times not. The hard part using a DVM is as other have stated getting a good an known ground.

I want a definitive answer to be safe and will proceed until I get a 100% confirmation that no voltage is making the skin hot. As for the ladder yes I was wet and I did have the hose in my hand when I touched the slide screw.
 

gregw

Member
Great feedback and I am at the end of my testing as any next steps is beyond my level of expertise. I will try plugging into a GFCI outlet to see what happens. My suspicion is that nothing will happen.

Given all the remarks about the non contact tester I may actually be getting some false readings, but I do know that it only beeps when the converter breaker is turned on and is most likely charging the battery since this morning I would get a light on the tester and other times not. The hard part using a DVM is as other have stated getting a good an known ground.

I want a definitive answer to be safe and will proceed until I get a 100% confirmation that no voltage is making the skin hot. As for the ladder yes I was wet and I did have the hose in my hand when I touched the slide screw.

I'm glad you want to be safe and hope that happens.
Was the unit plugged into high voltage(shore power)? 120/240 volt shore power. If not then a shock from the unit would most likely be from DC power(on board battery). If it was plugged in then it could be either. The word "ground" is used quite a bit and there are several different types of "ground" electrically speaking. That is another discussion. The converter will only charge if it is plugged in and the shore power is plugged in and that circuit is turned on. With the non contact type testers I believe they only test for AC. DC is also very dangerous in certain situations. Most people think because the voltage is low (less than 48 volts) that makes it safer and that is simply not true.
As another poster said. Find yourself a good industrial electrician that has worked motor controls and equipment controls. Let us know how it turns out.
 

weekender01

Well-known member
I'm glad you want to be safe and hope that happens.
Was the unit plugged into high voltage(shore power)? 120/240 volt shore power. If not then a shock from the unit would most likely be from DC power(on board battery). If it was plugged in then it could be either. The word "ground" is used quite a bit and there are several different types of "ground" electrically speaking. That is another discussion. The converter will only charge if it is plugged in and the shore power is plugged in and that circuit is turned on. With the non contact type testers I believe they only test for AC. DC is also very dangerous in certain situations. Most people think because the voltage is low (less than 48 volts) that makes it safer and that is simply not true.
As another poster said. Find yourself a good industrial electrician that has worked motor controls and equipment controls. Let us know how it turns out.


I agree that even below 48V is too much. I am going to try the GFI option and also am going to buy a new dog bone adapter. I would think that the EMS would detect, but I need another one to keep in the camper. It only occurs when the converter is on.
 

avvidclif

Well-known member
Just a thought. The voltage is only there (skin) when the converter is on. The converter is a switchmode power supply. It could have an internal fault applying AC voltage to the negative 12v output going to the battery which also is the "ground" for the RV. Using the DMM measure the AC volts from the Negative (DC) terminal of the converter to the chassis of the converter. It should be zero. The converter has a 3 prong plug and the chassis should be at ground. With no power applied to the RV the ohm-meter function will verify that.
 

CDN

B and B
Just a thought. The voltage is only there (skin) when the converter is on. The converter is a switchmode power supply. It could have an internal fault applying AC voltage to the negative 12v output going to the battery which also is the "ground" for the RV. Using the DMM measure the AC volts from the Negative (DC) terminal of the converter to the chassis of the converter. It should be zero. The converter has a 3 prong plug and the chassis should be at ground. With no power applied to the RV the ohm-meter function will verify that.

Hello, The negative side of the converter is bonded at the power panel o ground and then to the star ground point on the frame. There should be no potential there at all. As you mentioned above he does need to test this.
 

porthole

Retired
Loran A station


Showing your age there kiddo ;)

an engineer confirmed that the towers could be mounted and dismounted on fiberglass ladders while hot.

Did the engineer confirm by demonstrating that it was safe?

Yes, there are pictures online.

Read APPENDIX E. They talk about the ladder having to be dry!

https://media.defense.gov/2017/Mar/29/2001723584/-1/-1/0/CIM_11000_4A.PDF

Interesting read. But back to my original question, did the engineer/s that said it was safe make that first step onto - off the very specialized fiberglass ladder? Lot of what if's there - you guys are nuts! :eek:

I relate it to my job. When we are on a power line incident we treat every line as hot until the lineman can prove otherwise, and his word is not good enough.
 

wdk450

Well-known member
Just a thought. The voltage is only there (skin) when the converter is on. The converter is a switchmode power supply. It could have an internal fault applying AC voltage to the negative 12v output going to the battery which also is the "ground" for the RV. Using the DMM measure the AC volts from the Negative (DC) terminal of the converter to the chassis of the converter. It should be zero. The converter has a 3 prong plug and the chassis should be at ground. With no power applied to the RV the ohm-meter function will verify that.

If you had a high electrical leakage situation with a device plugged in to the trailer, and if you had poor grounding between the trailer chassis "ground" and true earth ground, then that would explain the AC current on the skin of the trailer.

The evidence pointing to the power converter being the high leakage device, and the probable assumption that it has an internal switched mode power supply makes me think of a seminal incident in my career as a Hospital Biomedical Electronics Technician. Going back to the 1970's, much of the growth of hospital biomedical engineering departments can be attributed to a magazine article by Ralph Nader (based on a single faked/flawed study by a now disgraced/exiled biomedical researcher) that asserted that 10,000 patients a year were dying in hospitals from microshock. Microshock is a shock inadvertently applied to the patient through the low resistance monitoring leads and catheters. Within a few years while this "study" was being debunked, National Medical Equipment Safety organizations were being set up, limits established, and all patient care equipments gotten onto safety inspections both while new, and on a regularly scheduled basis. The electrical leakage limits with the ground wire open for medical equipment were set at 100 millionths of an ampere for general usage, and 10 millionths of an ampere for electrode patient connected devices. The larger spec is about 1/10th of the level people can feel, and about 1/100th of dangerous current levels. Again, these specs are a worst case scenario, with the grounding wire open (broken). Proper grounding is also checked, along with the amount of current patient leads will sink - testing if the patient touched a live circuit how much maximum could be grounded by the patient leads. I wrote this paragraph so you would understand my technical story following, and so that you and your loved ones would feel more at ease when connected to patient care equipments.

In the 1980's the Personal Computer came to the forefront, and we began to see medical devices based around PC's, instead of custom designed electronic boxes for every needed medical device. The first IBM PC based device came into our shop, and I was assigned to do the incoming inspection. Well, the IBM PC FAILED the electrical leakage test. It seemed that ALL PC based systems were failing the stringent hospital electrical leakage tests. I got a schematic of the PC power supply (where the AC is), did an analysis of the primary AC circuitry, and found that the standard AC power line filter used on all PC's had capacitors from the live and neutral wires to ground. These are meant to ground out high frequency transients from coming in/going out to the AC power line, but pass much more 60 cycle AC current than the medical leakage restrictions allow. I clipped out these capacitors and the PC passed Hospital electrical safety, but now was questionable if it met FCC radiated electrical noise limits. Very soon there were available Hospital Grade power line filters which met the industry leakage standards.

So, what I am getting at is that with a Switched Mode Power Supply converter, the power line filtering capacitors may be conducting more 60 cycle AC than intended to ground, and with a poor system ground to true earth ground, be setting up a hot skin shock situation, while still operating as a converter/charger normally.
 

Bones

Well-known member
If you had a high electrical leakage situation with a device plugged in to the trailer, and if you had poor grounding between the trailer chassis "ground" and true earth ground, then that would explain the AC current on the skin of the trailer.

The evidence pointing to the power converter being the high leakage device, and the probable assumption that it has an internal switched mode power supply makes me think of a seminal incident in my career as a Hospital Biomedical Electronics Technician. Going back to the 1970's, much of the growth of hospital biomedical engineering departments can be attributed to a magazine article by Ralph Nader (based on a single faked/flawed study by a now disgraced/exiled biomedical researcher) that asserted that 10,000 patients a year were dying in hospitals from microshock. Microshock is a shock inadvertently applied to the patient through the low resistance monitoring leads and catheters. Within a few years while this "study" was being debunked, National Medical Equipment Safety organizations were being set up, limits established, and all patient care equipments gotten onto safety inspections both while new, and on a regularly scheduled basis. The electrical leakage limits with the ground wire open for medical equipment were set at 100 millionths of an ampere for general usage, and 10 millionths of an ampere for electrode patient connected devices. The larger spec is about 1/10th of the level people can feel, and about 1/100th of dangerous current levels. Again, these specs are a worst case scenario, with the grounding wire open (broken). Proper grounding is also checked, along with the amount of current patient leads will sink - testing if the patient touched a live circuit how much maximum could be grounded by the patient leads. I wrote this paragraph so you would understand my technical story following, and so that you and your loved ones would feel more at ease when connected to patient care equipments.

In the 1980's the Personal Computer came to the forefront, and we began to see medical devices based around PC's, instead of custom designed electronic boxes for every needed medical device. The first IBM PC based device came into our shop, and I was assigned to do the incoming inspection. Well, the IBM PC FAILED the electrical leakage test. It seemed that ALL PC based systems were failing the stringent hospital electrical leakage tests. I got a schematic of the PC power supply (where the AC is), did an analysis of the primary AC circuitry, and found that the standard AC power line filter used on all PC's had capacitors from the live and neutral wires to ground. These are meant to ground out high frequency transients from coming in/going out to the AC power line, but pass much more 60 cycle AC current than the medical leakage restrictions allow. I clipped out these capacitors and the PC passed Hospital electrical safety, but now was questionable if it met FCC radiated electrical noise limits. Very soon there were available Hospital Grade power line filters which met the industry leakage standards.

So, what I am getting at is that with a Switched Mode Power Supply converter, the power line filtering capacitors may be conducting more 60 cycle AC than intended to ground, and with a poor system ground to true earth ground, be setting up a hot skin shock situation, while still operating as a converter/charger normally.
in other words the converter is bad. :):):):):):) LOL
 

mlpeloquin

Well-known member
One thing to add is that a good non-contact voltage tester can see as little as 12VAC. Mine is sensitive enough to follow the wiring inside the wall of my house. It detects an open ground with AC on the chassis easy. I tested this by isolating the ground at the house and checking the metal chassis of the RV. I quickly reconnected the ground. I did measure the voltage on the skin using another extension cord for it's ground lead at 68VAC. So I suspect the converter is the source, but I was not going to leave the ground disconnected to unplug the converter to find out.

If you want to test your non-contact voltage tester, just put the tip near the hot of an electrical socket. It should light up and sound off.
 

szewczyk_john

Well-known member
While this thread only has 39 replies, I sure hope that a lot more members are reading this thread. Those that have responded have done a good job of explaining the seriousness of this issue.
 
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