Fresh water tank fill

[fivernine]

I have a new Landmark Cape Cod and only on my second shakedown camping run. I find it almost impossible to get water into the fresh water tank (tanks?). In my last visit to the dealer to fix a few bugs from the first shakedown, I mentioned this and they told me I probably had some water trapped in the vent line. Their solution to this was to wrap a rag around the hose and stuff it in the water fill port to build some pressure and blow the vent line clear (didn't actually do it, just recommended it). I'm an engineer and know it doesn't take much pressure to blow a plastic tank this size (two or three psi maybe?), but it should only take a few inches of water pressure to clear the vent so I gave it a very gentle try with no luck, just air gurgling back through the water fill hose. If I let the water barely trickle into the fill, it will slowly enter the tank and I can hear air gurgling back by the same route. There is no air passing out through the vent hose screen so pretty well points to a pinched vent line somewhere and the gurgling in the fill line suggests that it has a sag that is trapping water. Where is all this happening and what is the fix? Can I access it myself? I pulled the panel off in the basement and can see the fill hose heading back toward the fresh water tank, but couldn't follow it or the vent line. I don't mind pursuing it if I don't have to drop the underbelly (had enough of that on the old Jayco). Otherwise its 100 miles to my dealer or 450 to Elkhart.

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

We have had quite a few owners with the same issue. Mine was a pinched vent line. Fortunately for me, it was fixed after the rally by Rec Specialties. If your vent line is pinched or blocked in any way the underbelly will have to be removed to find the problem. You may be able to take down only a few feet on the off door side near the tank and find the problem. Good luck. You might try some light air pressure to the vent line hole. This could blow any obstruction back to the tank.

 

[slaytop]

This may sound silly, but if you can disconnect the vent hose or butt another hose to the vent opening and blow through it you would be able to test it without any danger to rupturing the tank.
Larry

 

[fivernine]

Thanks Ray and Slaytop. I know the vent line has to access the top of the tank, but does its tank fitting come off the top of the tank or does it come off the bottom with a standpipe reaching up through the water to the top of the tank? Other tanks I'm familiar with have the vent molded into the top. Wherever it comes off, the hose must take a rather circuitous route up to the UDC and is apparently pliable enough to fold and close somewhere (can't imagine a new fresh water system being plugged with a foreign object). It would seem that the only long-term solution would be to replace it with stiffer tubing--perhaps fabric-filled pressure line. But you say there is no way to access the point of attachment to the water tank (is it one tank or two?) except by dropping the underbelly. I don't mind doing top-side repairs and mods (kind of enjoy it), but after putting in electronic tank monitors in my last Jayco, I've had all that kind of fun I can stand. If I could reach the vent fitting from topside, I would be glad to do the fix, but if the factory has no easy fixes for this, I guess I will turn it over to their service folks. Sure do appreciate your responses. Perhaps I'll see you at the Heartland Rally.

 

[Uncle Rog]

fiver, use the search feature and you will find a lot of posts on water tank issues, the reason you can't fill your tank might be that it is actually already full, an unable to drain............

 

[jbeletti]

Water Tank Vent Line Image

fivernine,

The image below was taken during a factory tour. I cannot tell you what unit it was for. You also need to know that the trailer was not in a finished state. Therefor what you see here is does not mean that's how it ended up in a finished unit.

That all said, it may give you some insight as to how yours may be plumbed and what it may take to get to it.

The 2009 Landmarks do have two 45 gallon fresh water tanks so there one solid answer for you

From your location and a comment in another post, I am guessing you purchased from RVsForLess. I'd suggest giving them another shot at this - especially if the tanks need to be dropped I'm with you, top-side's one thing, under the belly of the beast is another.

Now then, if I was retired, had my unit on concrete and in a warm climate - I'd tackle more under the belly - but I am not dropping a tank.

Best of luck,

Jim

//heartlandowners.org/attachments/tank_vent_sm.jpg
click image for enormous view

 

[fivernine]

Uncle Rog: Took your advice and searched "water tank issues." My gracious! so many problems with such simple hydraulics and for so long. I just finished delivering a bellows accumulator tank to NASA MSFC for the Intl Space Station. I find this silliness over a simple water delivery and vent issue quite a contradiction for a company that has done such a fantastic job on this Landmark in every other respect. It's amazing how many people have undertaken the repair themselves like Loco in his 11-20-07 post. Lordy, I hope that's not what I'm facing and that Heartland will fix this once and for all.
Jim, thanks, that is a great shot of the tank placement and makes the vent routing pretty clear in the neighborhood of the tanks. It also appears that they are already using reinforced tubing--a good choice for its fairly rigid wall. So far, my problem just appears to be a pinched vent line. Water would have blown out with the few inches of head pressure I exerted on the fill hose. But the vent screen remained dry and had no outflow of water or air. I will call Butch at RVs for Less and set another day aside to get this fixed. My wife and I plan to drycamp at the Good Sam Rally a little over four weeks from now and will expect a full supply of water with no surprises. I perhaps didn't mention that my unit is a new 2008. Does it also have dual fresh water tanks?

 

[jbeletti]

Yes, I "believe" that all of the new (Cape Cod, Augusta and Pinehurst) Landmarks have the two fresh water tanks. To be certain, consider a post in the Landmark ATF (Ask the Factory) forum and Coley Brady, the product manager will confirm this.

You're in aerospace then?

Jim

 

[fivernine]

Yes, the company is Flexial Corporation. We build fluid control components for many of the major aerospace and military progams. Camping is our escape, especially with our son and his family; he got us started five years ago when they got a pop-up and we discovered Stone Mountain in Georgia. We just went whole-hog and bought a 3-year old 37' Jayco Designer fiver. Fell in love with the freedom and having home wherever we went. I have gotten sick of flying and dodge it where I can, so if there is a customer within driving range, we haul. I have a Wilson cell phone antenna high on the desk slideout and amplifier inside that lets me communicate with the office through Verizon from just about anywhere. We've made some long loops in the past few years--Hatteras, Maine, Wyoming, Colorado. We'll put aside three weeks and ramble by inspiration. We enjoy caravaning with our son (VP Eng, Disney) and with his five and our daughter's five, we can always find grandkids to join us. The kids have dubbed us "The Mother Ship."

When the Jayco showed too many signs of age, we had decided to get a Mobile Suites by Doubletree and found the floor plan we liked (similar to the Cape Cod). Then stumbled into the Cape Cod and found it had one significant advantage--the bedroom slide didn't block the bathroom door when retracted. Didn't know Heartland from Heartburn, but found a lot of good reports on forums and its finish quality certainly resembled Mobile Suites.

Except for my issue regarding the fresh water tanks, I've been extremely pleased with both the Landmark and with RVs for Less. RVs jumped quickly on the few shakedown bugs we found.

I'm sure this pinched vent line will be fixed, but it concerns me to see so many reports for the same thing over several years and across various models. These factory warranty repairs ("escapes" in the aerospace field) have to cost Heartland pretty heavily, while the fix, superficially at least, seems simple if they can bend on the UDC: A fill port in the offdoor side near and well above the tanks to keep the fill and vent runs short would obviate all these various issues--pinched lines, partial fills, difficult fills, syphoning while under way. These are all related to trying to keep a gravity water system too horizontal. Their fill hose runs are so long and snaked that the gradient is only marginally steep enough to deliver efficiently, while the long run back for the vent hose seems to pose too many opportunities to get pinched during assembly. If the UDC is sacred (It's a hot dog idea and I really like it if it can be made to work properly), then they need rigid, smooth bore PVC that can hold a constant gradient and they could run the vent line back through it to preclude pinching as is done in a lot of gravity systems. But these are cost adders; you can't just snake rigid line through any old place. I am out of place trying to critique out of my field.
--fivernine

 

[Trey]

fivernine,

Respectfully, and intelligently described! I agree with all aspects of your analysis. Heartland should consider the comments from you and previous posts another opportunity to get a leg up to improve the design.

A fellow PM in the defense industry.

Trey

 

[fivernine]

Thanks Trey. My Landmark is a fine rig with a minor infant glitch. Already have a bunch of travel laid out for it and having a ball getting it ready.

 

[fivernine]

Fresh water tank wrap up

With some great advice from Jim Beletti and from Matt at Recreational Specialties in Elkhart, I tracked down the problems in my 2008 Landmark Cape Cod fresh water system--there were two that caused resistance to a complete fill. First, the big picture:

There are two fresh water tanks in this model, one over the rear axle, the other centered 3-1/2 feet behind the axle. They are joined for water flow with a section of hose (like the fill hose) that is centered very near the bottom of the tanks. As you fill or draw off water, the two are supposed to rise and fall together. Near the top, the rear tank has two vent ports in the door and offdoor sides about one inch below the top. They are joined together with a length of braided, two-layer hose like you see up front near the pump. On the door side, there is a length of the same hose that tees into this cross-over vent hose and goes forward to tee into a similar vent arrangement in the front tank. This was the first problem:

This vent hose between the two tanks was the reason the rear tank would not fill. The hose was installed allowed to sag between the two tanks with a drop of about 6-8 inches below the vent ports. Inevitably, it got filled with water. The fall between the fresh water fill port in the UDC and the tanks is high enough for water to flow into the tanks, but not great enough to clear water out of this hose. The small amount of head pressure in this vent hose was enough to prevent the rear tank from taking on more than a couple of inches of water in the bottom. The solution was to disconnect it and run it over the steel framwork which placed its highpoint above the two vent ports. (As soon as I disconnected it, water came out and the two tanks equilized in level. The tanks are translucent and water is visible through the walls.) Water can still enter the hose, but gravity will clear it back out immediately.

The second problem: The vent hose from the front tank that runs forward to the UDC was kinked closed a full 90°. It attaches to a tee pointing upward, then runs forward to the UDC. At some point, its own weight pulled it until it kinked almost closed. The solution here was to razor cut it about one inch forward of the pinch, cut through the permanent clamp with an abrasive wheel on a Dremel, and throw away the kinked section. I took a 1-1/2 inch piece from the hose where it attaches to the UDC and used it to join the tee to a right-angle PEX 1/2" fitting that turned the corner without kinking. Locked the hose joints down with small hose clamps.

This is no fun job and took some tool innovation because the gap where the hoses are located is just wide enough for hands to fit in, but tough to grip anything. It can be accessed through lowering about 12 feet of underbelly by removing the self drilling and tapping screws along each I-beam. It is not necessary to cut the underbelly. Prepare several 6-8 inch long 2x4s. Curl the underbelly plastic and the insulation above it inward and upward toward the center of the camper and hold it there with the blocks wedged between the underbelly and the I-beam. Unless you have long arms, you will have to raise your creeper about 3" on a piece of plywood.

But it solves the problem. I put my fresh water hose in the tank fill port in the UDC and turned on the water to 5 gallons/minute as measured in a bucket. I could see the tanks fill and watched the meter in the control panel. When it said full, the water was just below the two vent ports. There was never any resistance to flow and I got a strong, audible flow of air out the vent port in the UDC.

If you don't have a good complement of tools and feel comfortable with them, I would leave this fix to the experts. I did it because I was cramped for time and my service centers are many miles away.

Good luck to you brave ones!

 

[ChopperBill]

Yes already figured it out if you want it done right you had better do it yourself! One thing you will find out about these large shallow tanks is if you are not parked level you wont begin to get all the capacity out of them. And it doesn't take much off level to keep the water from getting to the pump intake. Mine took over 20 gallons, after the water heater was filled, BEFORE it would begin to pump usable water. Sure cuts down the capacity! I "shimmed" up the off pump intake side of the tank almost 2 inches so the water runs to the pump intake. This is a concept that Issac Newton figured out years ago. (Dealer said he shimmed it when it was in for warranty, They lied!).I can now get water out of the tank with just a few gallons added, even when it isn't parked so level. Now having 2 tanks connected in the middle isn't going to make my modification so easy. If the tanks were connected at the pump intake side it wouldn't be much of a problem.

 

[Uncle Rog]

I followed retired's post's and when the warranty was done on my rig I made a visual inspection of the fix and verified it was actaully done!
The next time I have to open 'er up will be on my dime / time and will take the opportunity to make a full system(s) check. As of right now every thing works well and I have no reason to mess with any thing.
Fiver, I use a garden hose water meter when filling the fresh tank, I leave the vent open until it starts to flow and then I can add approx 7 more gallons to get to the advertised 75 gals........

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

Way to go fivernine! I like to do as much of my own work as possible too. Not so much because I'm concerned about my dealer. It's just nice to know exactly what was wrong and how the repair was done and an opportunity to get familiar with the "heart of the beast". Not to mention having to take it to the dealer and possibly hear too many times they're waiting for parts or some other reason for the job not being done yet. Good luck with your travels and be safe.

 

[fivernine]

Thanks Ray, I appreciate the kind words. I work on it because I can, because I have a pretty good workshop next to it and because my dad taught me as a kid not to be afraid to take anything apart. My son and grandkids are the same way. I really didn't expect to find several issues at this level and was even more surprised at how long they have been going on--the very same problems for several years.

I just posted on the Modifications (General) Forum a rundown on how I converted the king bed in my Landmark to a queen. My wife and I hope to meet you in Branson.
--Rick

 

[danemayer]

Our new 2011 Rushmore was also having a problem with fresh water fill. Anything more than a trickle of water would cause it to back up and overflow. I opened the basement and saw that the fill tube was tied down with a group of other tubes causing a low spot in the gravity fill system. I rerouted it higher so that the water can actually flow downhill into the tank and that seems to have resolved the problem.

 

[buckeyebob]

had the same problem with my 09 sundance 2900mk,the dealer fixed the pjugged vent hose and all was fine,HOWEVER a year later i actually crawled under the trailer and found my dealer cut the underbelly almost all the way across to look at tank and hose !!!!!!!!!how nice.now there is tape hanging off my sagging underbelly,where i have tried to fix it twice.the dealer is long gone(jim may rv,findlay ohio).tape wont hold.what im trying to say is make sure your dealer removes a few screws instead of ruining your underbelly by cutting it!!!!!buckeyebob

 

[lwmcguir]

Our new 2011 Rushmore was also having a problem with fresh water fill. Anything more than a trickle of water would cause it to back up and overflow. I opened the basement and saw that the fill tube was tied down with a group of other tubes causing a low spot in the gravity fill system. I rerouted it higher so that the water can actually flow downhill into the tank and that seems to have resolved the problem.

Had to do the same thing on the Augusta after getting water in the basement a few times. The factory install had the fill tube going clear to the bottom of the basement and then back up hill. Didn't work well at all. Cut out a foot and suspended the line so it is near vertical. Works much better.

 

[hoefler]

Behind the panel where the city, tank, winertize valves are, I installed a valve to fill the tank while connected to city water. That way I can have all water into the coach is filtered and I don't have to stand there holding the hose.