danemayer
Well-known member
Mike Sokol has a great article in RV Consumer Mag's online December issue: Invisible Killers - RV Hot-Skin Voltage
Here's a link
Here's a link
Great safety article by Mike Sokol on RV Hot-Skin
- Thread starter danemayer
- Start date
HornedToad
Well-known member
Thanks Dan, that was a great article. That is the type of information most joined the forum to learn. As the author stressed the importance of a proper ground back to the pedestal, I kept waiting to read how this is accomplished with a generator.
I found this article on the authors blog that offered the explanation I was looking for...
http://www.noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/
This is a must read for anyone using a portable generator!!!
I found this article on the authors blog that offered the explanation I was looking for...
http://www.noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/
This is a must read for anyone using a portable generator!!!
scottyb
Well-known member
I communicated with Mike concerning my Hot Skin. He is very quick to respond and always willing to help. Mine was created by an erroneous repair by the dealer that created an open neutral. I was not aware of the seriousness of the tingle until I read his BLOGs. The non contact voltage meter really works and lit up when about 6 away from any metal surface on my rig.
danemayer
Well-known member
Tony, If I correctly recall Mike's previous comments, there are certain scenarios that will not be detected by your EMS/Surge Guard/Protector that will result in a hot skin.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
Hook up one of these to the pedestal first and you won't have to worry. http://www.myrv.us/electric/Pg/tester_50amp.htm I just completed building one with a slight modification. I used a 50 amp plug and a short section of flexible pvc conduit. That way, I was able to use lighter guage wire to hook up everything, since there isn't any load on it. Only took a couple of hours to put it together, most of which was spent looking for parts in my messy shop. Works like a charm.
Kbvols
Well-known member
Dan, you are correct with this. I have an EMS installed and still had a hot skin. I had two issues ground lug was broken at shore connector and hot wire out of EMS was punctured. Anyway was not a fun situation and luckily no one was hurt. This occurred while at the Goshen rally. Thankfully I had a great neighbor Larry (southernnights) that worked hours and diligently to help me find the problem as I had little knowledge. Since then have have been educating myself and this was certainly a great article. Thank You for sharing.
Thanks for posting my Hot-Skin article here. And yes, there's at least one mis-wiring condition than ALL EMS/Surge-Guard/Protectors will neither detect nor disconnect your RV from. I've named it an RPBG condition which causes a high-current hot-skin voltage, which is perhaps the most dangerous type since all of your electrical appliances and RV electrical systems will still operate normally. Note that RPBG outlets cannot be detected by any standard test procedures, including 3-light testers, voltmeters testing H-N, H-G, N-G, or even the best existing Voltage/Surge protectors. However, a simple Non Contact Voltage Tester (NCVT) which costs less than $20 should be able to find an RPBG or an RV hot skin easily.
While an RPBG wiring condition would be difficult to accidentally create in a modern home or campground, they're certainly possible and may even be fairly common in pre-1960's buildings that originally didn't have grounded wiring. And with knob-and-tube wiring that was "upgraded" to grounded outlets in violation of the national electrical code using bootleg grounds, there's a 50/50 chance of them happening.
See my article at EC&M Magazine where I introduce the idea of RPBG outlet testing to the electrical industry. http://ecmweb.com/contractor/failures-outlet-testing-exposed
You should make some of these and offer for sale. I would definitely buy one.
The problem, as I see it, is if you use a receptacle tester it will not detect any problem that you may have in the coach.
I recently read a post about a person that had some service work done on the RV. The service people did not put the wires back in the correct position resulting in a hot skin.
Read posts #4 and #8 of this thread.
The non contact voltage tester is still the best bet.
Peace
Dave
I recently read a post about a person that had some service work done on the RV. The service people did not put the wires back in the correct position resulting in a hot skin.
Read posts #4 and #8 of this thread.
The non contact voltage tester is still the best bet.
Peace
Dave
Are you referring to the EC&M Article, or the one in RV Education 101?
I've received dozens of emails over the last year detailing where broken grounds and neutrals in the shore power cord or even the RV's breaker panel was to blame for the hot-skin condition. And while you can measure RV skin voltage to earth using a standard volt-meter, that requires a ground rod and poking a sharp probe through the paint of the RV. That's not likely to happen except in a post-accident inspection. I knew that and predicted that a NCVT would be a good test for this condition. That's because a basic $15 to $25 NCVT doesn't need actual contact to show voltage on the skin of your RV, nor does it need you to use a ground rod. Your own body's capacitive coupling to the earth provides the needed ground reference. After testing this hundreds of times on all shapes and sizes of electronic gear and RVs, I'm confident that an NCVT is the best test for the RVing public.
Sadly, I can't get any meter industry support to teach RV owners how to do this simple and safe test. And non of the RV manufacturers think this is important enough to teach to their customers. So please show articles like this to your RV dealers and ask why they're not training their customers how to check for proper pedestal voltages and RV hot-skin conditions. I'm interested in producing articles that could be included with all new RVs.
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porthole
Retired
RV 101. The other article, since a standard web page I could save on my dropbox account for future reference.
But, if you have that available as a pdf too, that would be nice.
Keep spreading the info. Most everything you post here I send to my electrician/township electrical inspector friend and he now uses the NC tester as referred to here along with his other tools.
wdk450
Well-known member
It would be great if all the RV parks had a tester like this plus a bank of about 5 - 10 amp toasters or the like to load test the pedestal outlets. I had one at TT in Menifee, Ca. that started tripping my Progressive EMS AFTER I had disconnected my electric heaters for the night. Fortunately, I had a 30 amp extension cable and was able to reach an adjacent unused space pedestal outlet.
FYI: I'm now working on a article about something I call a reflected hot-skin condition. This occurs when a section of daisy-chained pedestals lose the main ground connection back to the service panel's G-N-E bonding point. If an RV with a hot-to-chassis short is plugged into this section of the park, then ALL of the RV's in that part of the campground will be hot-skin electrified. And even though your voltage/surge protector may WARN you there's an open ground, it can't disconnect you from this high-current voltage source. Because the NEC doesn't allow surge/voltage protectors to disconnect the safety ground wire via a relay, then your RV would still have this hot-skin voltage even though all the power in your RV was dead. And even shutting off your circuit breakers in the pedestal or RV will not shut off this reflected hot-skin voltage.
Note that if the campground's safety ground is properly bonded back to the service panel's G-N-E point it's IMPOSSIBLE for a reflected hot skin condition to exist. And that's where a toaster loading test would really help. I'm an advocate for annual or semi-annual testing of every campground pedestal to confirm proper voltage, polarity and safety ground integrity. Much more on this later....
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Please post the following to any forums you belong to.
Mike Sokol from The No~Shock~Zone will appear live on the RVtravel webinar on Saturday, June 21 at noon EST. He'll be discussing RV electrical safety as well as announcing his upcoming eBook on Amazon titled "No~Shock~Zone - RV Electrical Safety". Here’s the link to the webinar: https://www.youtube.com/user/RVtravel
Email your RV electrical questions in advance to mike@noshockzone.org
Thanks... Mike Sokol (jmsokol)
Mike Sokol from The No~Shock~Zone will appear live on the RVtravel webinar on Saturday, June 21 at noon EST. He'll be discussing RV electrical safety as well as announcing his upcoming eBook on Amazon titled "No~Shock~Zone - RV Electrical Safety". Here’s the link to the webinar: https://www.youtube.com/user/RVtravel
Email your RV electrical questions in advance to mike@noshockzone.org
Thanks... Mike Sokol (jmsokol)
wdk450
Well-known member
Well, it finally happened to me. The disturbing part was that I just detected the shock hazard as I was getting ready to pull out after a 3 day stay at Thousand Trails South Jetty, Florence, Oregon (60 degrees all the time there). I set my hand on one of my axle dust covers while removing the wheel chock, and got a definite tingle. Yes, I tried it again to be sure (STUPID). I had bought a non-contact voltage tester a few weeks back, have it velcro'd to my laundry basket I keep my electrical supply cords in, but am still not in the habit of USING it while hooking up. I got the tester out, and found that my frame was live. I went to the pedestal outlet box, unplugged the trailer, and tried the tester on a metal case screw - it showed that the box case was live - probably no grounding. I found a park maintenance man on my pull out of the park, told him about the hazard, and he noted it down.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/electrical-testers/dual-range-non-contact-voltage-tester
Is this the tool? Seems it's only 15 bucks.
It sure would be much easier to check your rig during set up with this, than checking it by putting one foot on your steps and one on the grass while drinking coffee.
I guess the question is just exactly how would you use the device as applied to your rig? I'm sure the device has instructions, but may not be explanatory as far as rigs are concerned.
In my case I would assume that touching this to the steps or chassis would give the indication if present.
Is this the tool? Seems it's only 15 bucks.
It sure would be much easier to check your rig during set up with this, than checking it by putting one foot on your steps and one on the grass while drinking coffee.
I guess the question is just exactly how would you use the device as applied to your rig? I'm sure the device has instructions, but may not be explanatory as far as rigs are concerned.
In my case I would assume that touching this to the steps or chassis would give the indication if present.
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