Heartland Quality
- Thread starter dave10a
- Start date
danemayer
Well-known member
Google search for Heartland ISO 9001 or SOB similar searches come up empty.
ISO 9001 certification is a demonstration that you have a quality process and that you follow it. Certification doesn't guarantee any particular level of quality results.
For example, if your process says you train your workers, have quality inspectors positioned at various points on the assembly line to do inspections, and have a PDI facility at the end of the line, and you do all those things, you can be certified.
Does all that mean that there's no sawdust, or that electric wiring is bundled, or that some manufacturing defect won't show up? Nope.
But if you're selling to the European market, where ISO requirements are often used as a trade barrier, you must have it or you'll be excluded from government and many company bids.
ISO 9001 certification is a demonstration that you have a quality process and that you follow it. Certification doesn't guarantee any particular level of quality results.
For example, if your process says you train your workers, have quality inspectors positioned at various points on the assembly line to do inspections, and have a PDI facility at the end of the line, and you do all those things, you can be certified.
Does all that mean that there's no sawdust, or that electric wiring is bundled, or that some manufacturing defect won't show up? Nope.
But if you're selling to the European market, where ISO requirements are often used as a trade barrier, you must have it or you'll be excluded from government and many company bids.
Based on my knowledge of being ISO certified from working in the oil industry,Currently Heartland would most likely attain the certificartion if they have a set of written procedures and guidelines BUT would most likely struggle to maintain the certification.They do not have consistant quality units coming off the product line, units are all over the place with quality issues...this does not cut it for ISO certification.
kowAlski631
Well-known member
Do you know what brands are ISO certified?
dave10a
Well-known member
I believe Keystone, Northwoods, some Canadian and Australian brands are certified and several others are "green certified".
danemayer
Well-known member
Maybe you can provide some links that confirm that.
CoveredWagon
Well-known member
Whatever “green certified” means. That does not sound like a quality certification. I’ve been through many many quality certifications and never heard of that one.
dave10a
Well-known member
I did a search on Bing for ISO certified RV manufacturers and that is where I came up with those names. The thing that is most amazing is how you and others seem unwilling to accept that Heartland or Thor are not certified with any agency that would assure better product quality. I would think people who are either potential RV buyers or present owners would embrace anything that would improve the RV industry. No wonder the RV industry is getting reputation of poor quality as long as people don't demand better from them.
The present RV industry reminds me of the auto industry back in the 60/70's that were producing poor quality and many Ford, Chevy, Dodge owners/loyalists kept ignoring it or making excuses that enable that industry to continue with poor quality. It took competition from Japan and others to make long needed changes that improved quality that we see today.
danemayer
Well-known member
Dave,
You're confusing quality process certification with ecologically sound designs, which is what Green RV certification is about.
You're also confusing quality processes with marketing. The certification is a marketing claim. Certification is not required to have good quality, although one might argue that if you have a certification, you're more likely to have good quality.
Keystone RV on their website makes a number of claims about quality, just as Heartland does on the Heartland website. ISO certification is not one of Keystone's website claims. I'm sure if they had the ISO certification you think they do, they would add that to the list. And the Bing search you mentioned doesn't turn up any ISO certified RV manufacturers, at least on the first 5 pages of results. Coachman and Forest River show up, but when you click through, there's no mention of ISO, nor does a search of their websites produce a result.
A very small minority of consumers subscribe to Consumer Reports so they can evaluate quality and reliability alongside feature, function and price. A very small minority - maybe 2 or 3% of consumers. And Consumer Reports doesn't rely on certifications like ISO. They test independently and collect data independently. I guess they don't see ISO certification as the be all, end all that you suggest.
A very small minority of RV buyers might respond to an ISO certification. The majority respond to feature, function, appearance, and price. The few who try to check out quality ask questions and search the internet, and maybe tour the factories. Would a ISO 9001 Certification tilt their decision? Maybe. Maybe not.
Meanwhile, Heartland continues to focus on improving quality, including building a very expensive PDI facility in Elkhart to inspect every new trailer prior to shipment. Quality will either improve, or it won't. I have more faith in the approach Heartland has taken than I would if they just went after a certification. They're putting a lot of money into their approach - a lot more than it would cost to get ISO certified.
kowAlski631
Well-known member
WOW! I know that Paul and I were trying to understand how the ISO term would be relevant and applicable in an industry where many of the products (as ours) are unique orders. Of course everyone hopes for as close to perfect a product as possible, but with each unit assembled in a non-automated environment, human errors are probable in every trailer. We had very few quality problems with our Big Horn.
Have a great rest of the day. Martha
dave10a
Well-known member
I am glad to see that Hartland is more focused on quality and has invested in a large facility that performs PDI inspections. Time will tell how effective Heartland quality control efforts are. Does that mean they are going to eliminate dealer PDI because Heartland has built a facility to do that, and only expect the dealer to perform a product familiarization like automobile dealers perform?
Anyway as a future buyer, I will be watching to see how Heartland and other manufacturers perform-- after all it is a large expense. I will be watching several independent sources than Consumer Reports-- which is not a good source for RV evaluation.
I asked about ISO certification, because it is a good thing that many other manufacturers around the world have adopted to provide better consumer confidence, and it looks like the RV industry is a little slow in that area unfortunately.
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Trust me it is relevant and applicable
Anyway as a future buyer, I will be watching to see how Heartland and other manufacturers perform-- after all it is a large expense. I will be watching several independent sources than Consumer Reports-- which is not a good source for RV evaluation.
I asked about ISO certification, because it is a good thing that many other manufacturers around the world have adopted to provide better consumer confidence, and it looks like the RV industry is a little slow in that area unfortunately.
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Trust me it is relevant and applicable
kowAlski631
Well-known member
Trust me it is relevant and applicable [/QUOTE]
Please explain why you believe it to be.
I would think that you go over every home, boat, automobile, and other expensive items you purchase with a fine tooth comb. We do - especially when it comes with features that are unfamiliar to us. An RV is no different. There is NO piece of paper or certification that would alleviate the responsibility of consumers to insure that what you receive is acceptable to you.
[/QUOTE]Please explain why you believe it to be.
I would think that you go over every home, boat, automobile, and other expensive items you purchase with a fine tooth comb. We do - especially when it comes with features that are unfamiliar to us. An RV is no different. There is NO piece of paper or certification that would alleviate the responsibility of consumers to insure that what you receive is acceptable to you.
dave10a
Well-known member
Trust me it is relevant and applicable
Please explain why you believe it to be.
I would think that you go over every home, boat, automobile, and other expensive items you purchase with a fine tooth comb. We do - especially when it comes with features that are unfamiliar to us. An RV is no different. There is NO piece of paper or certification that would alleviate the responsibility of consumers to insure that what you receive is acceptable to you.[/QUOTE]
The same reason I believe in SAE J2807 towing standards and other standards organizations. Yes one should go over everything to assure things are right as well. I think you missed the point of my question. If you learn something about ISO you will see that it assures that a manufacturer is using acceptable quality control methods. It is amazing to me that anyone would argue against it. If a company choses not to go through the riggers of ISO certification, they should clearly explain what they are doing for quality control. So far I have not seen much from most RV manufacturers. Heartland claims to have a new PDI facility, but limited information about it and other quality control procedures at various stages of production. Time will tell how well Heartland's PDI facility actually improves quality. Now that I am about to purchase anoth $100k+ RV I would like to know more about a manufacturers engineering and quality control-- wouldn't you?????
Having certified 3 plants under ISO 9001 I can tell you to be eligible and to maintain the certification is very intensive. In my opinion is it worth it. Yes, but then that is only my opinion. What I found the key was is to get the buy in from everyone associated in the facility.
At first, management at the plant feels the pressure as “best practices” moves from paper to actual implementation. That means the lip service becomes reality for all. Then the base line workers start to feel the pressure from the managers. However once the transition starts to gain steam, you can feel and see the progress. What I found was by encouraging and pointing out the improvements most begin the change process. Quality only comes when the buy in process becomes part of the culture.
What is the bottom line, quality becomes a built in process as opposed to a “catch” process. When problems occur and managers and the floor people are obligated to perform a root cause analysis things change. Usually the change becomes a performance improvement. Edward Deming professed that having a quality control dept is unnecessary if the production process is corrected and items are built correctly thus saving money at the end not having a quality control catch things at the end.
This is is where Heartland in my opinion needs to take their manufacturing. How much money is spent on warranty claims that could be avoided by designing and performing the manufacturing the first time.
Ok, off my soapbox.
At first, management at the plant feels the pressure as “best practices” moves from paper to actual implementation. That means the lip service becomes reality for all. Then the base line workers start to feel the pressure from the managers. However once the transition starts to gain steam, you can feel and see the progress. What I found was by encouraging and pointing out the improvements most begin the change process. Quality only comes when the buy in process becomes part of the culture.
What is the bottom line, quality becomes a built in process as opposed to a “catch” process. When problems occur and managers and the floor people are obligated to perform a root cause analysis things change. Usually the change becomes a performance improvement. Edward Deming professed that having a quality control dept is unnecessary if the production process is corrected and items are built correctly thus saving money at the end not having a quality control catch things at the end.
This is is where Heartland in my opinion needs to take their manufacturing. How much money is spent on warranty claims that could be avoided by designing and performing the manufacturing the first time.
Ok, off my soapbox.
dave10a
Well-known member
We went through the ISO process at our company manufacturing medical diagnostic equipment (MRI, CT, Xray, ultrasound) and we had seen great improvement with lesser warranty costs. As an example most everyone likes Sailun tires-- and I believe thier ISO 9001 certification was most helpful to achieve that good reputation. Now RV mfgs are starting to install that tire on their trailers.
kowAlski631
Well-known member
The same reason I believe in SAE J2807 towing standards and other standards organizations. Yes one should go over everything to assure things are right as well. I think you missed the point of my question. If you learn something about ISO you will see that it assures that a manufacturer is using acceptable quality control methods. It is amazing to me that anyone would argue against it. If a company choses not to go through the riggers of ISO certification, they should clearly explain what they are doing for quality control. So far I have not seen much from most RV manufacturers. Heartland claims to have a new PDI facility, but limited information about it and other quality control procedures at various stages of production. Time will tell how well Heartland's PDI facility actually improves quality. Now that I am about to purchase anoth $100k+ RV I would like to know more about a manufacturers engineering and quality control-- wouldn't you?????[/QUOTE]
As long as the human element remains, there will be errors. I suppose that since you don't have faith in Heartland's engineering and quality control, you should go with a custom build. As for us, we looked for the company that has a good reputation of standing behind its products. We've not been disappointed and would again choose a Heartland product. Good luck with your quest - out of this discussion - too busy camping to continue.
Martha
As long as the human element remains, there will be errors. I suppose that since you don't have faith in Heartland's engineering and quality control, you should go with a custom build. As for us, we looked for the company that has a good reputation of standing behind its products. We've not been disappointed and would again choose a Heartland product. Good luck with your quest - out of this discussion - too busy camping to continue.
Martha[/QUOTE]
Not to be argumentative but a company standing behind their products is one thing, but to me its more important that they spend the time and energy to build a “world class” product. That way standing “behind” their products becomes less of an issue. Yes, I will agree anytime humans are involved the possibility for issues/problems is there. However with proper processes this can and should be minimalized. That way the company can retain their profits to reinvest in the business and reward its shareholders.
danemayer
Well-known member
If any of you who have opinions on the subject haven't done so, you should try to get a factory tour to get a better idea of how these trailers are built. Even better if you can arrange to at least get a glimpse during work hours with dozens of employees moving at full speed. It's quite the eye opener and probably very unlike what most of us have experienced in our own work history.
Dan,this is the problem,management has them running th asses off on the line and this leads to quality issues,quality issues lead to inferior products which lead to warranty issues.
ISO certification as mentioned by individuals who have lived though the process can see the end game,called quality... quality leads to less costs in the long run and MORE profit by the manufacturer.
yes they built a PDI center,,what did it cost and how much will quality issues cost to fix...always was told in the oil industry...You can always find time to do it the second time then why not do it right the first time..
RV manufactures need to pay attention to the future requirements or they won’t be around for the future..the big can fall as fast as the small..
ISO certification as mentioned by individuals who have lived though the process can see the end game,called quality... quality leads to less costs in the long run and MORE profit by the manufacturer.
yes they built a PDI center,,what did it cost and how much will quality issues cost to fix...always was told in the oil industry...You can always find time to do it the second time then why not do it right the first time..
RV manufactures need to pay attention to the future requirements or they won’t be around for the future..the big can fall as fast as the small..
