In the BELLY OF THE BEAST. Part 1

[creeper]

Well I was unhappy with the supposed repair of my waste gates by the dealer, only to discover they never took the bottom off to actual make a check or adjust the waste gates, I decided that the belly has to come off. I wanted to do some maintenance to the frame anyway due to rust. I'm going to add SeeLevel tank guages and just to see what is going on under there.

I previously took care of some surface rust with a wire brush and some rustoleum. Which is holding up well.

After taking off the front belly I was surprised at what I found.

Lippert's "powder coating" SUX!!!!!!! Lots of rust, most not serious. Some serious.

Quality control issue to Heartland: Zinc coated bolts and washers are not made for exposure to the elements. They rust horribly. Taking off the front belly with badly rusted zinc bolts caused 2 to break on front belly. Taking off the rear broke 7. Liquid wrench didn't help. Took 4 drill bits to get out 2 bolts. The last seven are going to be a nightmare.

When I dropped the front belly I was greeted with an attack of the wire loom. Sorry no pictures, but here is one looking at the rear, which was the same.

I spent a good amount of time wiring tying wires. There was a LARGE amount of excess wire. A little better planning and QC will eliminate a lot of waste. The cost savings could be put towards using galvanized bolts.

I sanded down the frame rails, cross members and then I prepped and coated them with POR 15.

When done I had a nice shinny surface and a neat and tidy wire loom. I actually coiled the excess wire in the front bay.

Now onto the rear belly. What a pain in the arse to get it off. I actually made two pieces out of it and will join them back with a acrylic patch. PLUS 7 snapped bolts. NOTE to HEARTLAND, if you're going to use inappropriate bolts in weather exposure, PLEASE put a dap of anti seize on them.

The rust was not as extensive on the back part. I sure wish I didn't order that extra quart of POR 15.

Below: Fresh water tank, rust and all that excess wire. In the past there was a question of tanks falling out. Seems that problem was taken care of.

More rust and a tangle of wires. Some pretty poor QC on the heat vent. Just look at that excess insulation.

Now this is just sloppy workmanship. They cut the vent to length and rather then just snip off the excess they just left it hanging. It was on both vents. Took less then one second to snip off excess.

WHY? WHY? WHY? A few zip ties and some duct tape and it was all cleaned up. Pictures in Part 2 to come.

I also took of the spare tire rack. Needs some cleaning up and POR 15

Excess wire, hose, etc..

Continued below.......

 

[creeper]

More excess wires and rust.

Here is one i have to think about. The heat line is squished between the tank the frame.

Everything is pretty straight forward. A little sanding, little prep, little POR 15, some wire ties and then the belly goes back on. My grinder with coarse sanding wheel attached makes very quick work of the rust. I use a wire wheel for areas that are inside the frame rail.

A couple of HD videos if you want to see what you under belly looks like.

http://creeperscobra.com/drop/rv/SANY0110.MP4
http://creeperscobra.com/drop/rv/SANY0111.MP4

This is not a knock on our camper. We love it. Just some things Heartland/ Lippert need to take a look at. Since I'm saving Heartland/Lipert lots of money on warranty work, a box of bolts, Heartland Jacket/Shirt or hats would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jbeletti]

Curtis,

Thanks for pointing these items out. I have flagged it up with QC, Purchasing, Production Management and an Owner. Most of this has already been addressed and some of it has not. You will be the talk of this morning's daily production meeting.

Thanks for helping us make a better coach and best of luck on your own efforts to make yours even better.

I am very curious about your retrofit of the SeeLevel tank gauge system as I have wanted that for years. Please take detailed before, progress and after pictures of that installation for posting in the BH Plumbing forum for others to see what sort of work is involved in such an upgrade. I think the system is under $200 if I recall correctly.

Be safe under your rig

Jim

 

[creeper]

Will do on the SeeLevel. That's one of the reasons I removed the bottom. I needed to see if I had the clearance for the SeeLevel.

 

[mountainlovers76]

Creeper. I am in the same process you are at this very moment. I have the bottom completely off of my Bighorn and have the EXACT same conditions. In fact, your excess wiring, hoses and duct insulation is actually better than mine was. Also, the amount of trash, bits of wire, screws, saw dust, carpet and floor tile remnants and just general debris in the bottom was really upsetting. Even a used coffee cup just tossed inside. I spent two days using wire ties and plastic clamps to secure everything underneath and make it neat. I re-routed and tightened all the vent and fill lines to the fresh water tank. EVERY fitting was removed with two turns by hand....none were tight. The connection for the line to the pump was leaking water and it was standing on the insulation above the corrugated bottom and then dripping out the side. I cut out some excess pex tubing on the plumbing which moved the tee's for the low point drains almost a foot above the bottom and added some length back to the drain end to get it back out the bottom. That should keep them from freezing and are still below all other lines so the low point still functions.

I am also adding my own artic winter package to it. Where the 2" heater duct is just dropped into the bottom, I am adding another 8 to 10 feet of pipe and some tee's to direct the warm add all the way back and between each holding tank and water lines. On top of the thin blanket of insulation already there, I added a 3.5 mil layer of poly for a moisture barrier and then 6 1/2" batts of plastic wrapped fiberglass insulation. The batts are R-19 and the poly is 10' wide so it will wrap up and over the batts about 2' on each side making them unlikely to ever get wet if any water does find its' way back inside somehow. The batts are 15" wide so 4 1/2 batts fit nice and snug inside the frame. All together I should have approx. a R-25 value on the bottom of the coach and it is going to be pretty airtight. I have a can of foam sealer to seal every hole I find through the frame and a couple of rolls of waterproof Nashua tape to seal the edges of the corrugated bottom the full length of the frame and any other cuts or holes in it to make it water tight. I noticed in your photos where the water had been standing inside on your insulation and corrugated bottom also.

Ok, I know I got long winded here, so will hold off on telling my other pending improvements. While I am very disappointed in Heartland's QC, at least concerning my coach, I have to admit I have enjoyed learning what was underneath and adding my own cold weather package to it. Before, when the wind blew I could feel a draft through the floor level vent in the kitchen in front of the heater. Bet I don't after this.

 

[creeper]

I have a can of foam sealer to seal every hole I find through the frame and a couple of rolls of waterproof Nashua tape to seal the edges of the corrugated bottom the full length of the frame and any other cuts or holes in it to make it water tight. I noticed in your photos where the water had been standing inside on your insulation and corrugated bottom also.

Do you have any pictures of your mods? I also have been using the foam sealer.

The water appears to have gotten in by the wheel wells. There was a cut out opening by both sides and I'm sure the water just flew up in the holes.

I'm going to add supports to the underbelly and then add drain holes.

I've been conteplating adding rigid insulation. We don't do much cold weather camping, but when we have (20's in WY and 30's in Atlanta) it was easy to keep the coach comfortable with using the fireplace and one electric heater. The furnace only came on a couple of times.

The big test will be our two weeks in NY with sub 30 weather for days at a time. I'm going to put a ceramic heater by the plumbing on a timer.

 

[Pulltab]

Mountain, I did all this stuff last year. For the heating, I ran pvc 1-1/4 " I think it was. I ran it to the rear of the rv as I have my galley tank in the rear. I attached the hose and capped the end of the pipe. I then drilled a 3/4" hole where ever I wanted heat directed to heat the tanks. I installed batt insulation in the underbelly but left about 6" of space around all the tanks so the heat to be localized. I also installed in the rear and up near the front a remote temp sensor that I can monitor from inside.

I also shored up all the tanks to prevent bowing in the center of the tanks which really kills the draining of the black tank. I elevated one end of the water tank and supported the underside of it to keep it from drooping.Fill line for the water tank was corrected as there was way to much extra and it was just bunched into the belly which prevented it from filling correctly. All wires were tied up and I used pipe insulaton on all the waterlines underneath.

 

[beardedone]

Heartland doesn't use low point drains anymore, something I always liked in order to winterize in a hurry if the weather turned bad. Are you guys considering adding them to your plumbing while you have it open.

 

[creeper]

I think I have low point drains. I have two on one side and one underneath for the fresh water tank.

 

[mountainlovers76]

Heartland doesn't use low point drains anymore, something I always liked in order to winterize in a hurry if the weather turned bad. Are you guys considering adding them to your plumbing while you have it open.

My Bighorn has the low point drains and I really like them as well. I simply cut out some of the excess PEX and moved the T's up above the top of the frame I-Beam. Even at that height, they are still at the lowest point in the PEX plumbing lines and still work just fine. That way even if the low point drains do freeze from the outside, I do not think they will freeze all the way up to the T's (about a foot high now) once it is inside the insulated and heated bottom. Especially after I have it sealed up nice and tight with the extra insulation.

 

[mountainlovers76]

Hey Pulltab. Seems we think a lot alike. I used 1 1/2" PVC to extend the heat duct also. I just added a " Sanitary T" (they have the curve in them) in the line at each holding tank and a 45 to the end instead of drilling holes but your way works just as well. I am waiting for my remote temp sensor to arrive as we speak. I ordered the marine type since it has the Ice Alert Alarm on it (only $20 including shipping) and will install it at the furtherest point back from the heat source between the last gray tank and the fresh water tank. That should be the coldest point. I am adding shoring under my tanks as well to get them as high as I can and slant them toward the drain openings. Like you, I am leaving air space around all the tanks to hold the heated air close to them. I am not insulating the internal water lines since I do not think it will be needed now, but can always do later if necessary.

Here is an idea I have to add more heat underneath without using the propane furnace. I like to use electric heaters inside my coach as much as possible since the electric is included in most of the places I camp and propane comes out of my pocket. Add a 4" flexible duct to the same area where you now have the additional PVC run to extend the heated air. Bring the duct up through the bottom of the coach in the same area when the current ducting runs to the furnace (may have to enlarge the opening a little) only do not connect it to the furnace. Place the end of the duct just behind the return vent in the coach. Add a 4" duct fan (about $25) inline and add a switch where convenient. If my Ice alarm does sound off showing very low temps in the belly, just flip the switch and this will pull the heated air from the inside and vent it into the belly without kicking on the propane furnace. Not using the propane will be a big cost savings in the wintertime.

I will try and remember to take some pics to put on here before I close up the belly, which I hope will be this Saturday.

If it sounds like I am having fun adding my mods and playing with my Bighorn....well, I am.

 

[creeper]

Where did you order you temp sensor. Great idea.

 

[mountainlovers76]

Where did you order you temp sensor. Great idea.

Creeper, here is the link to the sensor. It has a range of -58 to +158 degrees with a 10 foot external sensor cable and memory to track the minimum and maximum temps. I figure I can mount it in the area where my breakers and fuses are and the cable will reach to the area underneath where I want it mounted.

http://www.nationalmarineproducts.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=16153

 

[cdbMidland]

Mountainlovers76 - will you have to drop the belly to change the batteries in the sensors?

 

[creeper]

Thanks , ordered it. Thinking about putting a Dri Rod or some sort of heater in the belly. For those rare times we'll be in the real cold.

Edit: Decided to go with the Golden Rod, much safer then a light bulb. Will mount it between the tanks.

I'm wondering I can can lengthen the sensor wires.

 

[creeper]

Mountainlovers76 - will you have to drop the belly to change the batteries in the sensors?

No the sensor is just a wire, no batteries in it.

I looked at the ones at Walmart, but they didn't have the freeze alert.

 

[mountainlovers76]

Mountainlovers76 - will you have to drop the belly to change the batteries in the sensors?

No. The display contains the battery and it will be mounted inside the coach beside the fuse and breaker panels. That is why I ordered the one with the 10 ft hardwired sensor for the belly and not the remote sensor, so I would not have to worry about dropping the belly to change batteries.

 

[Pulltab]

Mountainlovers76 - will you have to drop the belly to change the batteries in the sensors?

I just cut a small access hole to get to my sensor. I velcro taped it in place, cut a flap I can open and then just tape shut again. Batteries last about a year.