Making sense of the tire talk

[SeattleLion]

Seattle, you labeled this thread as "making sense of tire talk" and claiming that people are just making statements not based of fact. Well, I find that this does not make sense and you have stated your opinions also. We all have opinions on tires but the fact is that when we change from the ST tires to the LT tires our stories change also. You cannot dispute that. Wake up and smell the roses.

What's your point? Do you seriously believe that a few opinions on a forum constitute accurate assessments of a product? My point is that opinions are interesting and important, but prove absolutely nothing. I am saying that the statements are based on personal experience. How does that equate with the millions of Tow Max tires on the road right now? Do we have 100 bad experiences? 50? 300? It doesn't matter. The experiences here are just that: experiences. How many Heartland trailers on the road have Tow Max? Do you know? How many experienced a tire failure? Do you know?

I didn't think so.

 

[alanfred]

.......How does that equate with the millions of Tow Max tires on the road right now?......

Hate to burst your bubble SeattleLion, but you are doing it too. How do you know there are millions of Tow Max tires on the road? The problem with facts and statistics, they can be presented in a manner to achieve any result that's desired. The scope of an analysis on the Tow Max tire failures would be huge if done correctly.

Here is some more non-empirical evidence, if I had felt how flimsy the sidewall is on an unmounted Tow Max tire, I never would have accepted delivery of our rig. I wish I had the forethought to do a physical comparison between the Tow Max and the Goodyear G614 before hand. I believe anyone who looks at the two tires side by side would shutter at the fact they are towing with Tow Max.

 

[danemayer]

I wish I had the forethought to do a physical comparison between the Tow Max and the Goodyear G614 before hand.

Goodyear G614 is a higher load range (G vs E) designed for regional towing application. It has steel belts that run all the way to the bead which is why the sidewall feels so different. Without any doubt it's a tougher tire and it's rated to carry more weight, at a much higher price point. If you wanted to evaluate sidewall strength as a way of judging the quality of the tire, Towmax vs Maxxis or GY Marathon would be more appropriate.

 

[Heathcote4]

I have been following this thread from the beginning and it has been a good debate. The take away for me is the margin for error. We just returned from our Hot Springs trip today without incident. Had my TST507 and watched it the whole way, checked pressure this morning before pulling out. All good on these Tow Max devil tires.

However I will tell you that every pothole or bouncy bridge had a pucker factor the whole trip. Stressful driving is not very conducive to leisurely family road trip.

Here is where I come down on the tire thing. In order for an accurate comparison one has to look at similar specs, does Tow Max fail more or less than any other E rated tire? What I come away with is when you get to you heavier 5ers and toy haulers it seems that these E rated tires do not leave a lot of margin for error. When the margin for error is slim the variable is human nature. Everyone makes a mistake here or there, forgets to check this or that, and some times just rotten bad luck that day.

Everyone that upgrades to the G614s is going to a products with higher specs. But you read they they are not invincible. Two things I like and why I am upgrading mine next month is the reports that if a Goodyear tire fails they will fix the damage and they are made in America. Not to get political but I do try to buy American whenever possible. We spend thousands on our rigs and I hate putting thousands of dollars of new tires on a new rig just as much as the next guy. My excuse is ignorance and I chalk it up to education I know what to look for on my next unit. But I thank this forum for the information before it is too late.

Finally to/for Heartland..... They are putting tires on the ground that meet minimum specifications for their product or there is a liability issue. I don't believe they are putting anyone in danger intentionally. What I hope they hear is there is a cry from their customer base to better protect our investments. I respect and will continue to buy from any company that puts something a little better quality because it's the right thing to do.

Good luck to all the season. I will have tires with margin for bad luck and my TPMS. The rest I leave to God.


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[alanfred]

Goodyear G614 is a higher load range (G vs E) designed for regional towing application. It has steel belts that run all the way to the bead which is why the sidewall feels so different. Without any doubt it's a tougher tire and it's rated to carry more weight, at a much higher price point. If you wanted to evaluate sidewall strength as a way of judging the quality of the tire, Towmax vs Maxxis or GY Marathon would be more appropriate.

Good point, however the Goodyear G614 is only rated 230lbs more than the TowMax, G614 3,750lbs @ 110psi vs. TowMax 3520lbs @ 80psi. The G614 is a whole lot more tire to have a rating only 230lbs more than the TowMax. I don't know how the TowMax got it's rating of 3,520lbs, maybe standing still!

See attached: This tire lasted almost 5K miles before the sidewall gave way. I tried to disprove all the negative feedback about the TowMax. I installed TST TPMS, inflated to 80psi cold before every tow, I weighed trailer and truck separately to make sure I was not exceeding GVWR of the trailer or the truck, and the GCVWR was not exceeded. I stayed clear of curbs, pot holes, and bad roads, never jackknifed the trailer. Basically, I did everything I could to prove a tire rated to carry the weight of our rig would. I was wrong. Thanks to the TPMS and my quick reaction to get it stopped there was no damage to the trailer.

Buying the Goodyear G614's was the right choice for me, and I urge anyone towing a 15K rig to do the same.

 

[MrRvGypsy]

Take the E-rated TowMax and set it side by side with a supposedly lower E-rated Michlien XPS Rib or Bridgestone R250 Duravis and you will be shocked and scared that you are trusting you 15K lb fiver to the TowMax.

 

[mattpopp]

This is the kind of statement that has absolutely no basis in fact. How do you know the manufacturing quality of the Tow Max is lower than the LT? We'll exclude race tires because the performance requirements make the production process very different. Unless you have real statistics on quality for the tires, you can't possibly know. In fact, I assert that the Tow Max tires do fail more than LT tires even though I really have no evidence beyond anecdotal evidence here and other forums. I can say that truck makers do not ship trucks with tires that are at their load capacity. There is a lot of room. Even if the truck is loaded to its maximum rated payload, there is still margin. Trailer tires, on the other hand, are put on our fifth wheels with their capacity maxed out if we load the trailer to capacity. Even dry, the trailer is usually only 10 or 15% under capacity.

Does that mean ST's fail more? Folks here think so, but again no evidence. I still assert that the closer to the load limit you go, the greater the chance of failure. The combination of high load and under-inflation is a sure formula to a problem.

It's simple. If you are running ST on something that means you are towing using a pickup. The pickup is going to be running LT. I believe it is a safe assessment that how you treat your pickup tires you will apply the same care to your trailer tires. On average people will put about 5% to 10% of their pickup's mileage on their trailer. Full timers of course this will be higher but again this is a general average.

So if you have one blow out with a ST tire within 10000 miles then you will have had 10 blow outs on a pickup with 100000 miles. Because if improper care was the cause of the ST blow out, then there is 100000 miles of improper care on your LT. Blow outs would inevitable. That is assuming the ST is built to the same quality controls as a LT. But they aren't

That fact is a LT is a passenger carrier. It is built with a much higher standard govern by a US Government agency. ST do not have to meet the quality standard as they are not passenger carrying tire.

If you have a LT and ST E rated tire. Cut them and have and see what you find. Pay attention to side wall for example.

The accuse of running a tire close or at the weight rating is invalid. The tire is rated for X amount of weight. If that tire can not handle X amount of weight then there is a fault with a tire. That is otherwise a lame accuse.

After I had a blowout on a empty trailer. Just 1000 miles on the trailer and I had just checked the tire pressure 50 miles earlier. The thread had peeled off followed with a loud explosion. It was a manufacturer defect in the tire. I was then disgusted with how thin the tire's side wall was.

When I brought that tire to NTB for the warranty claim the rep said this was a very cheap tire with a very poor build quality. Even said that even though this tire was within weight spec on my trailer he said it was about the worst tire I could run on it.

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[Gary521]

The point I'm trying to make is that I fail to see your point and your purpose here. It appears to me that you are trying to make statement that everybody that has complained about these Towmax tires and has had the sides ripped out of their trailers should not be doing so. These folks do not have enough data to be complaining about the thousands they just spent repairing their trailers. I had my tires blow and take out my gas line so I did a search on-line to see if anyone else had tire issues. Low and behold, I found tons of complaints. No wait - I and these folks don't have the right to bad mouth these tires - not enough data and too small a population to form a strong argument - give me a break! It appears to me that you are trying to justfy hanging on to these Towmax tires for economic or some other ***** reason. Hey - have at it. It's your money and your trailer. You can be firm in your convictions ****. We **** will happily spend our money on decent tires and have some peace of mind. I think I hear the sound of wind plowing through my ***** brain. I would not have jumped into this thread but after reading, I could not help myself.

 

[dave10a]

I would suggest that when people make a statement of fact they would back it up with a valid source. I am not suggesting that people are not telling the truth, but I am suggesting that people can say anything they feel is correct even when it is not and verifiable-- I think they call that hyperbole.

 

[Gary521]

I think a "theory" would be closer to the truth. A "hyperbole" is an exaggeration. However, when folks are referring to this tire being better than that tire, it is opinion. BUT when folks actually see the tire blown to bits -that is a fact. With the large number of folks that have blown tires of a particular brand that is a fact. All of those facts start to take the form of a theory.

 

[Grey Ghost]

Gary521....I agree with you!! I've blown Tow Max tires and had to repair the side of my unit, I really don't think I should be questioned regarding my opinion of Tow Max Tires....I've blown them before and they are JUNK.

 

[dave10a]

I think a "theory" would be closer to the truth. A "hyperbole" is an exaggeration. However, when folks are referring to this tire being better than that tire, it is opinion. BUT when folks actually see the tire blown to bits -that is a fact. With the large number of folks that have blown tires of a particular brand that is a fact. All of those facts start to take the form of a theory.

Wellp I have seen no evidence of the ratio of any brand of tire mentioned on this forum that delineates the number sold vs the number of failures and the conditions surrounding the failure. Also, could it be that trailer mfgs. like Heartland are at the margins that promote premature failures. Do other vehicles that are using the same tire brands that are being called junk on trailers have the same failure rate. I guess my familiarity of reliability statistics cause my to be more skeptical of the claims being made. Facts are one thing opinions are another. China bashing is more political than anything else because they have both high quality and low quality manufacturers just like we do....

 

[SeattleLion]

Hate to burst your bubble SeattleLion, but you are doing it too. How do you know there are millions of Tow Max tires on the road? The problem with facts and statistics, they can be presented in a manner to achieve any result that's desired. The scope of an analysis on the Tow Max tire failures would be huge if done correctly.

Here is some more non-empirical evidence, if I had felt how flimsy the sidewall is on an unmounted Tow Max tire, I never would have accepted delivery of our rig. I wish I had the forethought to do a physical comparison between the Tow Max and the Goodyear G614 before hand. I believe anyone who looks at the two tires side by side would shutter at the fact they are towing with Tow Max.

I know that almost every Heartland trailer has them, all Kodiak and Keystones, etc. Lots out there.

 

[SeattleLion]

The point I'm trying to make is that I fail to see your point and your purpose here. It appears to me that you are trying to make statement that everybody that has complained about these Towmax tires and has had the sides ripped out of their trailers should not be doing so. These folks do not have enough data to be complaining about the thousands they just spent repairing their trailers. I had my tires blow and take out my gas line so I did a search on-line to see if anyone else had tire issues. Low and behold, I found tons of complaints. No wait - I and these folks don't have the right to bad mouth these tires - not enough data and too small a population to form a strong argument - give me a break! It appears to me that you are trying to justfy hanging on to these Towmax tires for economic or some other ***** reason. Hey - have at it. It's your money and your trailer. You can be firm in your convictions ******. We ***** will happily spend our money on decent tires and have some peace of mind. I think I hear the sound of wind plowing through my ***** brain. I would not have jumped into this thread but after reading, I could not help myself.

*****

First, no one is negating your personal pain. However, some people talking about very painful experiences doesn't mean they represent everyone who owns the product. *****************

 

[danemayer]

I've edited a few of the recent notes to tone things down a bit. Let's be civil to one another.

 

[Gary521]

You know Dave what "theory" is? It is a collection of ideas that form a model. It does not say that the ideas need to be based on fact but could be a collection of phenomenon. SO what do we have here. A number of incidents have been reported on the failure of Towmax tires. Many people have reported that these tires were not abused and have been carefully monitored. These same reports have been reported on other RV forums. So we have a collection of phenomenon here. Just as many people have reported ( give or take ) that once they switched to a different tire these problems have disappeared. So what theory can we come up with that might support these phenomenon. Hmmm! Now- some of us choose to give credence to this theory and obviously some do not. I think that we are all pretty much aware that most of the posts here are based upon people's opinion. A good number are people's personal experiences and others are just asking for advise. There is a lot of good stuff here and there is also a lot of BS here. We can choose to take advise or not based upon our personal feeling or experiences. Lord knows that we are all in the same RV boat here.

 

[Gary521]

Seattle, my pain has nothing to do with it. You seem to be hung up on some idea that the people who have problems with these tires represent some small insignificant number of the larger population of people who have these tires. You are saying we should not bash these tires because the actual number or reports may be small relative to the total number of tires that may be in use ( I think I said that correctly ). WHO CARES THAT THE NUMBER MAY NOT BE TECHNICALLY SIGNIFCANT. Like I said earlier, It's your money and your trailer.

 

[dave10a]

well Gary lets see the data--- keep in mind I am a data person. So lets see the data. Everyone means well, but data and facts rule. In my past (now retired) line of work the I found that laws of physics and mathematics do not care what people think or believe Remember no one graduates from the school of hard knocks

 

[usnaviator]

Hi Bob,

I hope you're as pleased with your new 3160EL as we are with ours. After reading your post I wanted to pass along the results of my trip to the weigh station with our new 3160EL. We ordered ours pretty we'll optioned out and the sticker on the door said it weighed 12,500 lbs. at the dealer. We packed it up for a 3 day trip and I filled the fresh water tank with approx. 20 gallons, all the other tanks were empty. Stopped to get it weighed on the way to the State Park and these are the results (I had previously weighed the truck by its self) - pin weight = 2,700 lbs. Trailer axle weight = 11,000 lbs. for a total weight of 13,700 lbs. It's certainly heavier than advertised, but it towed great. As far as tires, I plan on putting a few hundred miles on the factory tires then upgrade to the 17.5 inch wheels and tires (ours came with the 7K axles).

Paul

 

[Gary521]

You guys win. I give up. I do not have mountains of data that shows just how many blowouts there are per thousands of tires sold. All I have is the uncounted number of complaints against these tires. I do not have the number of dogs killed by tainted Chinese jerky treats per numbers of treats sold. I don't have the number of kids that have chewed on leaded paint in Chinese toys per the numbers imported. Still do not have the numbers of flattened Chinese springs mounted on Lippert suspensions. I tried to get numbers on the parts per million of particulates found in the unbreathable air found in Bejing but could not find it. Even If I did have these numbers, it would sound like a political message against the Chinese manufacturing system and I would not want to do that. So I decided to throw in the towel. Trying to make sense out of this is fruitless. You guys can rest well at night with your Chinese Towmax Tires knowing that data is on your side. I can also rest well knowing that I don't have those bulging sidewall beauties mounted on my trailer. Good night!!