JohnD
Moved on to the next thing...
Of course, any of us over 45 years old needs to add at least 25-50 pounds to that figure . . .
My new truck and weights (2017 F-350)
- Thread starter CoChris
- Start date
Of course, any of us over 45 years old needs to add at least 25-50 pounds to that figure . . .
Geodude
Well-known member
Interesting thread. We've been shopping for a replacement for our 2011 F-350 Lariat 4WD short box crew cab. Payload 3513 lbs. We'd like more headroom on the payload and GVWR as we're pretty much at the limit (but good on the axle ratings). Our first stop was the Ford dealer and we were surprised how payloads on the new trucks seem to have dropped. I can't get a Ford dually because with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs there is no personal-use exemption in Ontario, full commercial only and therefore would need to get a different licence and be subject to trip logs, daily inspections, etc. Yeah, I don't think so.
Ram has the best payload and GVWR numbers of all the SRW trucks, but my head touches the ceiling unless I get a bare bones truck with manual, cloth seats. That leaves GM. Their duallies have a GVWR of 13,025 pounds so I'd get the personal-use exemption in Ontario and would have lots of space on the both payload and GVWR.
I sure wish Ford had a GVWR de-rating option on the dually, as we've been really happy with our current Ford. But in the absence of that we see a GM DRW in our future.
Ram has the best payload and GVWR numbers of all the SRW trucks, but my head touches the ceiling unless I get a bare bones truck with manual, cloth seats. That leaves GM. Their duallies have a GVWR of 13,025 pounds so I'd get the personal-use exemption in Ontario and would have lots of space on the both payload and GVWR.
I sure wish Ford had a GVWR de-rating option on the dually, as we've been really happy with our current Ford. But in the absence of that we see a GM DRW in our future.
Again, thank you so much for the information. Air bags are my back up plan. Sounds like you have a nice system. One more thing to look into
Thank You for your input and help, I took a leap of faith and will be picking up my New F350SD tomorrow, Darn excited about it. Thanks again.
dave10a
Well-known member
I can remember when the owners manuals were thin and easy to comprehend. Now days the owners manuals consist of a library of information. The 2017 Ford is top of its class and I wonder how long they will be able to keep that title BTY I am not a brand loyalist, but simply an engineer and member of SAE. http://www.sae.org/
BTY I am not a brand loyalist, but simply an engineer and member of SAE. http://www.sae.org/
porthole
Retired
The Max Math (copied from Truck trend)
Once testing has been completed and a truck model meets all of the criteria, the basic calculation for the SAE maximum Tow Weight Rating is: TWR = GCWR – TVTW. By subtracting the total weight of the tow vehicle (the TVTW includes the weight of the driver, passenger, and additional equipment) from the tested GCWR, the result is the SAE J2807-compliant Tow Weight Rating.
Looking at the 2017 Ford towing guide the J2087 standard is calculated with a Ford twist - driver only.
Maximum Loaded Trailer Towing Weight Ratings (lbs.) – SAE J2807 Compliant
Maximum capabilities shown are for properly equipped vehicles with required equipment and a 150-lb. driver. Weight of additional options, equipment, passengers and cargo must be deducted from this weight.
Ford has at least 4 guides to help confuse you.
2017 Ford Super Duty Brochure
2017 Ford Super Duty Pickup Trailer Towing Selector
2017 Ford Super Duty specifications
2017 Ford Trailer Towing Guide
The smiley face, I'm guessing you think the dealer did you a favor
I don't know about GM or Ram, but with Fords when the truck is ordered there is a separate line item on the dealer's order confirmation sheet that adds in the dollar amount for a full tank of fuel and DEF based on the current market value. The truck is then shopped with minimal fuel.
We don't see it on the invoice because it is added in to the base price of the truck.
View attachment 53660
You could drop the FX4 and save some weight by not having the skid plates.
Or, if you think you would prefer the skid plates, there is a separate option for them, at $100.
You would then save $200 by not ordering the fx-4 package which includes the skid plates and a pair of decals and upgraded- decal only shocks
dave10a
Well-known member
What happens when the performance of your newly-developed vehicle exceeds the capabilities of the test equipment used to measure it? Ford Truck engineers faced that dilemma while preparing for the SAE J2807 towing tests of the all-new 2017 F-Series Super Duty.
Their conclusion: "We need a new dyno."
here is the article http://articles.sae.org/14710/
porthole
Retired
Something I haven't noticed before, Ford now includes the tailgate height. Also note that the newest towing guide is as of September 2016
And the "max" numbers are always based on the "least" amount of truck
The last two pictures are from the same page of one of the towing guides, even side by side it is confusing.
Truck weights with even just the driver are really only a baseline.
Last time I weighed my F-350 RW at a CAT scale it came in at 10,020 pounds!
But that was with:
65 gallons fuel in main tank
40 gallons in the auxiliary
Full DEF
Tool box and roll top cover
Two people, which probably average out close to the 150 per
2 dogs
Some firewood
25 gallons of water (boon dock week)
TS-3 hitch which weighs about 300 pounds.
What I found interesting with every time I have done a truck and trailer weigh with either the Ford or my prior GM, the front axle steer weight never varied more then 40 pounds with the trailer hooked up versus truck only.
That number is the key reason I won't order a truck with a HD front spring or snow plow package.
And the "max" numbers are always based on the "least" amount of truck
The last two pictures are from the same page of one of the towing guides, even side by side it is confusing.
Truck weights with even just the driver are really only a baseline.
Last time I weighed my F-350 RW at a CAT scale it came in at 10,020 pounds!
But that was with:
65 gallons fuel in main tank
40 gallons in the auxiliary
Full DEF
Tool box and roll top cover
Two people, which probably average out close to the 150 per
2 dogs
Some firewood
25 gallons of water (boon dock week)
TS-3 hitch which weighs about 300 pounds.
What I found interesting with every time I have done a truck and trailer weigh with either the Ford or my prior GM, the front axle steer weight never varied more then 40 pounds with the trailer hooked up versus truck only.
That number is the key reason I won't order a truck with a HD front spring or snow plow package.
Attachments
Interesting how much attention people pay to weight ratings.
I tend to be the kind that judges the way a truck and trailer tow in practice as to whether or not I am working the equipment to hard and possibly being unsafe regardless of ratings.
On paper the new 15+ F150 can tow 12,200 lbs. Yeah right, I owned that truck and towed with it quite a bit and while a very good truck it is still a half ton. My 5er weights about 11K NO WAY I would ever tow that with an F150.
My 1997 F350 7.3 was rated to tow a 14K trailer. Nope I wouldn't be towing over 10K with that one either, the brake size, lack of exhaust brake, auto tranny, just made for a difficult to stop vehicle especially at the speeds we are going today and the mountains we are pulling. Sure on the farm people are towing 20K with those, but that is a different environment than modern freeways with everyone going 80MPH bumper to bumper.
I rather buy the right vehicle and tow and stop with ease than rely on a sticker.
I tend to be the kind that judges the way a truck and trailer tow in practice as to whether or not I am working the equipment to hard and possibly being unsafe regardless of ratings.
On paper the new 15+ F150 can tow 12,200 lbs. Yeah right, I owned that truck and towed with it quite a bit and while a very good truck it is still a half ton. My 5er weights about 11K NO WAY I would ever tow that with an F150.
My 1997 F350 7.3 was rated to tow a 14K trailer. Nope I wouldn't be towing over 10K with that one either, the brake size, lack of exhaust brake, auto tranny, just made for a difficult to stop vehicle especially at the speeds we are going today and the mountains we are pulling. Sure on the farm people are towing 20K with those, but that is a different environment than modern freeways with everyone going 80MPH bumper to bumper.
I rather buy the right vehicle and tow and stop with ease than rely on a sticker.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
Now some of you seeing the frustrations I've had to deal with the last 4 years interpreting the crapy Ford charts and specs. After the second year, I decided then I'd never own a Ford truck just because of the mental headaches it caused me. Dag-nab-it, the 2018 charts are coming too soon.
porthole
Retired
Too Bad Dave - you're missing out on the best pickup trucks out there.
Might be the specs are confusing intentionally, to keep the Ram and GM engineers on their toes with the slide rules trying to keep up!
So you eliminated a brand of trucks because of a chart? OK, but since you are an RV educator there are a lot of other factors to consider than charts right? Would you suggest someone tow 30K with a class 3 truck (pick any brand)?
dave10a
Well-known member
As an engineer, I can assure everyone that marketing (spin masters) play a significant role on what specs are publish or omitted to the general public
fastcarsspeed
Well-known member
I think there a lot more to it than just the printed specs. Again the manufactures also have to play with the Government and what they can state and how they can state it. Also insurance is a big factor to contend with also. The engines and chassis in these trucks can handle the load rating and more when driven conservatively and safely. Other than SRW and DRW when you look at the 350/3500 and above rigs they can pull pretty much most of the big coaches out there. I swear I feel people get too wrapped around the axle about this stuff.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
"...factors to consider than charts right?"
Absolutely! The biggest problem is that most consumers read only the charts and don't read the other instructions, cautions, and warnings written in the owner's manual. I have written and published many articles covering multiple factors in selecting the right tow vehicle for the trailer to be towed. Spend an hour or so reading FWS content and you'd see.
I generally avoid suggesting a brand unless asked a specific question where I need point out some differences to consider. When working one-on-one with a client to provide a Comprehensive Tow Vehicle Report, I will provide multiple options and brands to consider. I don't get into the middle of a branding war.
My RV Tow Check app is primarily for the novice RVer. If you haven't noticed, the undereducated newbie gets into trouble more than anyone. The vast majority of dealers are no help. The RV industry, in general, is no help. However, some of the old-timers could learn some things too. I know, they have emailed me.
The biggest problem I have to reach the newbies is there are too few experienced RVers recommending Fifth Wheel Street or the articles I have written. A good example: Two RVers mentioned one of my articles over the weekend on three Facebook RV groups. Since Friday, it has been read by over 6,000 people and shared multiple times.
Dave...
Well... OK you did say that you wouldn't buy a Ford because of the charts, so I was just going by your comments.
I asked you a simple question about whether or not you would recommend a class 3 truck tow 30K lbs. Using your 5th wheel tow calculator for CAT scales on your site it would certainly imply that you would.
Hard to figure out your perspective.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
What I would or would not do is only for me personally. I said I won't buy a Ford. I don't tell what others they should do. I provide facts, options, and the appropriate tool for them to make an educated decision.
No one can know what vehicle is best for their towing needs until the following questions have been answered. It would be foolish for me to give a recommendation on so little information you provided. What works for me will most likely not work for a family of five with a big dog.
- What is the tow vehicle's GCWR?
- What is the tow vehicle's GVWR?
- What is the tow vehicle's scaled weight when tow-ready (GVW)?
- What is the tow vehicle's TWR?
In fact, the one seeking a vehicle should figure what he or she needs and they would be much better off not asking the opinions from others. Once one knows the answers to the four questions, then they enter that into the RV Tow Check App.
Funny stuff on brands here. My FORD dealer outsells all local Chev/GMC and FIat Ram dealers. Local trends are different all over Ontario depending where you live and work. Why do they outsell? Price, Service and finally nice people and owners. As far as capacity of SRW vs DRW another poster stated that is the defining difference. The biggest single problem is speed. Some road warriors just go way to fast. Suppose to be a vacation, slow down, drive for the weather and road conditions and keep your distance to stop.
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