New batteries

KennyM

Member
I just installed 2 new group 24 deep cycle 12v batteries in my 2014 Road Warrior 305. I plugged my trailer into shore power for 24 hours, shut shore power off and checked the voltage in the batteries, it was 12.9 volts, I checked the control panel on the batteries and I only got 3 lights, so I tried this again and the same thing only 12.8 volts in the batteries.

I left shore power off for 24 hours and checked the control panel and only 2 lights, once it gets daylight I will check the volts in the batteries again. I am guessing I have a draw somewhere. Now trying to figure out where, do you suppose the converter can be having a draw on the batteries? Both times nothing was turned on, no lights or anything else. I am really confused and to what it could be or perhaps the level panel is bad.

thank you for your help, you all are the best.

Kenny
 

Dahillbilly

Well-known member
CO monitors, smoke alarms, radio plus other devices will have cause this drain on the batteries. Unless you install a battery disconnect OR just disconnect the battery cables they will go dead!
 

KennyM

Member
CO monitors, smoke alarms, radio plus other devices will have cause this drain on the batteries. Unless you install a battery disconnect OR just disconnect the battery cables they will go dead!
Thank you,
I have the regular CO monitors and a smoke alarm, no radio turned on. I cannot disconnect the battery when camping as I use things in the trailer. These are brand new batteries, I am still at a loss as to where the draw is.
 

wdk450

Well-known member
You could repeat your charging test again, but at the end immediately disconnect the positive battery cable to the charger/load. Observe if you see an electrical spark/arc at the battery terminal as you disconnect it. That should tell you if you have some sort of electrical load discharging the battery. You could take a DC current test with a DVM at this point, but if the current value exceeds the current measurement capability of your DVM, you will most likely blow the internal DVM current protection fuse, and possibly render your DVM inoperative for current and resistance measurements.

I found these cheap, one piece DVM modules on EBay, and wired one in permanently to the test panel switch, thus giving me an instant accurate voltage READING when I press the TEST switch. I have another one at my hydraulic pump area just above the battery, half wired in, so all I have to do is touch the other wire of the module to a hot DC voltage stud on the hydraulic pump solenoid switch to see how the battery voltage looks.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124630796965?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D276750%26meid%3D5d7293651ecb42c48fbfc266e25cef15%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D133596054968%26itm%3D124630796965%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2332490%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV2bAndUBSourceDemotionWithUltimatelyBoughtOfCoviewV1&_trksid=p2332490.c101196.m2219&itmprp=cksum%3A1246307969655d7293651ecb42c48fbfc266e25cef15%7Cenc%3AAQAJAAABMJh9BGsXvPG03pKg78mUhLLErCJ%252BXOEYDkzTGJ85B4rSRXG6DGHfiL9UFpXuaOk%252FmuXW6x51j8YJMfy7doeYuyk9WZaRPkl%252FLlHN84X3%252FeYgVG3iucUQjkVp9Lf5uEN8Th5gMwSx9ZjgXNGHqhptKjzX7OEQQIaCVFbwV746VW5hIDkYoHy%252BVWvNLdDYac6WywKH02Yic35fch5wY98i5FF8F683xW8KMaMbsjE%252ByUfvcrYT85maPkCy1lLP6IP9Fk0tm9P4ozhvGNrPivdpKM9kDEneDSoGmomk9YTxnoho%252BGG5NbnvVC%252FcMAZ0YQk1WM6lDt7zG3hP47T%252BE%252F4Fww14yRv0zpQoRZerFQNDIqsOxIT%252FVMGXGs0bNjGxoJb4QxDJu9FmiWC7KJtEz5gCNbk%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2332490&itmmeta=01JDCSY07AA2PC8TJ78ZAPY564

To help find the phantom current draw, try removing fuses one-by-one from the 12 volt DC fusepanel while observing the DC current draw ( shorepower unplugged). Then you could try disconnecting the high current load wires one-by-one from the 12 volt DC buss rail with the self-resetting breakers again observing the current draw.
 
Last edited:

cookie

Administrator
Staff member
Even if your radio is not turned on it is still in standby mode consuming power. Your LP detector consumes power. Water heater uses 12 volts, furnace, thermostat use 12 volts.
Although these use very little power but still if it's a bit of a drain.
If you checked the voltage right after charging they may still be considered hot and need a cooling period. There will be a normal small voltage drop.

Peace
Dave
 

KennyM

Member
You could repeat your charging test again, but at the end immediately disconnect the positive battery cable to the charger/load. Observe if you see an electrical spark/arc at the battery terminal as you disconnect it. That should tell you if you have some sort of electrical load discharging the battery. You could take a DC current test with a DVM at this point, but if the current value exceeds the current measurement capability of your DVM, you will most likely blow the internal DVM current protection fuse, and possibly render your DVM inoperative for current and resistance measurements.

I found these cheap, one piece DVM modules on EBay, and wired one in permanently to the test panel switch, thus giving me an instant accurate voltage READING when I press the TEST switch. I have another one at my hydraulic pump area just above the battery, half wired in, so all I have to do is touch the other wire of the module to a hot DC voltage stud on the hydraulic pump solenoid switch to see how the battery voltage looks.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124630796965?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D276750%26meid%3D5d7293651ecb42c48fbfc266e25cef15%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D133596054968%26itm%3D124630796965%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2332490%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV2bAndUBSourceDemotionWithUltimatelyBoughtOfCoviewV1&_trksid=p2332490.c101196.m2219&itmprp=cksum%3A1246307969655d7293651ecb42c48fbfc266e25cef15%7Cenc%3AAQAJAAABMJh9BGsXvPG03pKg78mUhLLErCJ%252BXOEYDkzTGJ85B4rSRXG6DGHfiL9UFpXuaOk%252FmuXW6x51j8YJMfy7doeYuyk9WZaRPkl%252FLlHN84X3%252FeYgVG3iucUQjkVp9Lf5uEN8Th5gMwSx9ZjgXNGHqhptKjzX7OEQQIaCVFbwV746VW5hIDkYoHy%252BVWvNLdDYac6WywKH02Yic35fch5wY98i5FF8F683xW8KMaMbsjE%252ByUfvcrYT85maPkCy1lLP6IP9Fk0tm9P4ozhvGNrPivdpKM9kDEneDSoGmomk9YTxnoho%252BGG5NbnvVC%252FcMAZ0YQk1WM6lDt7zG3hP47T%252BE%252F4Fww14yRv0zpQoRZerFQNDIqsOxIT%252FVMGXGs0bNjGxoJb4QxDJu9FmiWC7KJtEz5gCNbk%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2332490&itmmeta=01JDCSY07AA2PC8TJ78ZAPY564
I do have a draw, just not sure where. Could it be the converter even when not plugged into shore power? When I initially hooked up the batteries I did not turn off the battery disconnect and gat a small spark after hooking up the positive cable then when touching the cable to the negative is when I got the small spark. I turned off the battery disconnect and no spark.
 

wdk450

Well-known member
The normal routing of the DC from the converter (which is hidden away in the basement) IS converter wire to 12 volt DC fusebox, wire from fusebox to DC charging/internal loads circuit breaker (near the battery) , which cuts off BOTH converter charging and battery ONLY supplying smaller internal loads when it trips. So if you can expose the 12 volt fusebox to temporarily expose the incoming feed wires from the converter and the battery and disconnect the one from the converter, you could see if the converter is somehow draining your batteries. Do this test unplugged from shorepower.

Personally, in all my years of being on this forum (15) I have NEVER heard of a converter/charger doing this non charging circuit loading.

Here is a generic diagram:


 

KennyM

Member
Thank you so much, I haven't heard of this either, I am just exploring the cause. All of my camping is dry camping so I don't want to wake up with dead batteries.

You all are the best.
 

taskswap

Well-known member
Even the cheapest multimeters like the $5-$10 Amazon/Horror Fright specials can help you identify this if you know how. Most can't handle higher current flows so it's best to charge your battery fully as already mentioned above. So you charge your battery to 100%, then disconnect it and put the meter in "current" mode and follow its instructions (many require you to re-plug one lead in a different hole) you connect the meter between the battery and the disconnected cable.

Now go around your camper and turn on/off lights and other devices and see what they draw. Even things like the CO2 detector aren't hard to test - you usually just need to remove 2 screws so you can get access to disconnect the wiring temporarily. Make a table of all your "house loads" and what they draw.

If you prefer a more permanent (or just smarter) option you can get something like these:
https://www.amazon.com/Victron-SmartShunt-500AMP-Bluetooth-Battery/dp/B0856PHNLX ($100)
https://www.amazon.com/bayite-6-5-100V-Display-Multimeter-Voltmeter/dp/B013PKYILS ($16)

These permanently install between your battery and camper, usually on the negative terminal, and give you readouts and/or even Bluetooth monitoring of your draws.

Once you know all this you can determine two really important numbers:
1. Your "house load" - the load of everything in your camper whether you're using it or not. This is stuff like your CO2 detector, the OneTouch or similar if you have one, radios, etc.
2. Your "general usage" loads, which will vary, but you can usually work out typical scenarios, like "during the day I might not use much, but might have a light or two on" vs "from 6pm-10pm I probably have a bunch of lights on plus the radio".

Using these two numbers you can get two important "run time" / "capacity" numbers for your battery planning. Say you have 2x 100Ah lead-acid batteries. Now power = voltage * current so that's 2*100 * 12V or 2400 watt-hours of capacity. But with lead-acids, even deep-cycle aren't supposed to be discharged below 50% to maximize their lifetime, so let's say 1200Wh.

Now let's say your "house load" turns out to be 600mA, just hypothetically. Doesn't sound like much. And on a daily basis, it isn't. But that's 0.6*12 or 7.2W. If you're running your generator every day you're never going to notice this. However, if you put the camper in storage for a month without disconnecting the battery, suddenly that is 7.2W*24h/d*30d or 5184Wh consumed. Your batteries will be flat by the end of the first week! And now the math shows you why everyone almost unanimously recommends one of the following for campers going into storage:

1. Disconnect the batteries
2. Add a solar battery tender

Say your load with furnace, lights, your cell phone charging in one of those sofa USB ports, etc is about 8A on average. That's 96W. Now your batteries are only good for 12 hours. That's shorter than a lot of folks realize. If you are 100% full at 6pm you're going to be drained by 6am the next day! Now the math is telling you the answer to the question "do I need to buy a generator if I won't be on campground power?" Answer: Yes.

The final detail is: why bother converting everything to watts if we're just dividing by 12 at the end anyway? This is because (allowing for some efficiency losses) now you can change voltages and all the math still works. Solar panels usually run around 20V on average, but if we care about their "watts" we can say things like "100W of solar will more than cover my house loads, but aren't enough to charge my batteries very much".

I know I just went on a long-winded tangent here but the math is important because it answers literally everything. How much solar do you need;? How long will it take to charge my batteries on a generator? How long will my batteries last if I'm using/not using my camper? Etc.

The longevity is usually far less than most folks would hope.
 

KennyM

Member
No tangent, just useful information. with my RV at home, I keep it plugged in and when out camping I use 200 watts of portable solar and have all LED lights. I camp alone so don't use much power and yes I also have a built in 5500 watt generator that I use at random to make toast in the morning and perhaps heat something for dinner.
I haven't ever had an issue with this setup in the past with other camp trailers. Thank you for your very informative information, I will do as you suggest and see the outcome.
 

Dan54

Well-known member
Not sure what you are referring to, I will reset all the breakers though.

My 2011 Landmark 5th Wheel had a similar issue. This summer it was sitting at our campground plugged into 30 amp shore power all season. When we pulled the trailer at the end of the season I unplugged & the slide outs & jacks wouldn’t move. The voltage read around 12.1 volts. After some diagnosing turns out the manual reset breaker was tripped. This type of breaker, which is on the charging circuit, is different from the other breakers on our trailer as the others are auto reset. Therefore we went all summer without knowing this particular breaker was tripped. Replaced it & are hoping for better results next summer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

wdk450

Well-known member
Here is some info on the battery to battery charger and 12 volt load manual reset circuit breaker. 2 files.



If you can access the charger/converter, the Progressive 9200 series ones have external fuses (3) on the case that connect to the 12 volt output, and you could disconnect the 12 volt system from the charger/converter somewhat easily by removing those fuses, or disconnecting the 12 volt output wire from the charger/converter. Be careful with the exposed conductor on the end of the 12 volt wire, as this has a direct connection to the 12 volt battery, don't contact it to ground.
 

Attachments

  • 9200 converter_line_drawing.jpg
    9200 converter_line_drawing.jpg
    62.1 KB · Views: 1

KennyM

Member
Here is some info on the battery to battery charger and 12 volt load manual reset circuit breaker. 2 files.



If you can access the charger/converter, the Progressive 9200 series ones have external fuses (3) on the case that connect to the 12 volt output, and you could disconnect the 12 volt system from the charger/converter somewhat easily by removing those fuses, or disconnecting the 12 volt output wire from the charger/converter. Be careful with the exposed conductor on the end of the 12 volt wire, as this has a direct connection to the 12 volt battery, don't contact it to ground.
Thank you very much, I have a friend coming over after Thanksgiving and he is an electrical wizard on RVs.
 

Dan54

Well-known member
Thank you Dan,

Where is the reset breaker?

Not sure on your trailer. On mine the breakers are in the same area as the battery cut off switch. If you’re not familiar with them they’re fairly small. Smaller than I expected.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

jhanon76

Member
What voltage does your charge controller apply to your batteries?

I had a similar experience and learned that my stock charge controller didn't apply enough voltage during bulk charging where it should be 14.4 V. All it provided was a float charge around 13.8 V. A float charge will not fully juice your batteries overnight. It will *appear* to because your multimeter will display 12.8+, but that's just some lingering voltage from the float charge, and it will be wiped out as soon as you draw a decent amount of power. Never being able to apply 14.4+ V will unfortunately wear out the batteries faster, but you can compensate to some degree by running the float charge longer...for a few days in your case to get your batteries fully charged.

Many TTs have weak charge controllers, so I'm guessing this is having a bigger impact than any leak you might be chasing.
 

KennyM

Member
What voltage does your charge controller apply to your batteries?

I had a similar experience and learned that my stock charge controller didn't apply enough voltage during bulk charging where it should be 14.4 V. All it provided was a float charge around 13.8 V. A float charge will not fully juice your batteries overnight. It will *appear* to because your multimeter will display 12.8+, but that's just some lingering voltage from the float charge, and it will be wiped out as soon as you draw a decent amount of power. Never being able to apply 14.4+ V will unfortunately wear out the batteries faster, but you can compensate to some degree by running the float charge longer...for a few days in your case to get your batteries fully charged.

Many TTs have weak charge controllers, so I'm guessing this is having a bigger impact than any leak you might be chasing.
I have an electrican rv repair friend coming out next week to check the charge controller. I had the batteries turned off the other day as I switched back to 6 volt batteries with 386 amps each. as soon as I turned the battery switch back on I could hear the charge controller turn on, not sure that it should be humming like that.
 

jhanon76

Member
Yeah that's good to have someone look at it. My concern is not the health of the charge controller, just it's inadequacy for charging standard RV batteries. It's ironic because it's an industry wide problem, but all you can do is change it out to a better one...if that's the problem
 
Top