Newbie diesel vs. gas question

[ky-newbie]

Hey all,

I've been reading the posts and articles about diesel vs. gas TV's. I need to come up with one in the near future. Not trying to step on anyone's toes, but let me share my diesel thoughts, and get your opinions:

Diesel - pro - 25-30% more mpg
con - Diesel is consistently 25-30% higher than gas (at least where I live now).
(Means the fuel costs are almost the same.)

pro - Engine lasts forever
con - Routine engine maintenance/repairs are double/triple the cost of gas.
(Means I could almost afford two new gas TV's vs. one new diesel TV over a 10 year period (exaggerated ))

pro - Tons more torque than gas
con - Great for 14,000+ lbs., but for 9,000-11,000 lbs.,

If money were no object, I'd head to the local Dodge dealership, and get a new Ram 4500 diesel. I haven't been blessed that well yet, though. :angel: WOW :angel:

Thanks

 

[caissiel]

Money is no object for comparing diesel to Gas. I would rather drive a 100K diesel then a new gas truck.

 

[Mariposa]

diesel

KY----
I use a 08 3500 Dodge 4x4. We pull a 3400 Big Horn. A number of times across the USA and a number of times between Texas & Calif. The diesel can pull. There are a lot of steep grades in the Western States. A gas engine can be faster on getting way from the light, to run all day long, and do some heavy pulling I go with diesel. The new ones don't make too much noise. Some people seem to get better mileage then we do, but when pulling I usually get about 10mpg. There is a lot of things that effect the mileage, grades, winds, and speed.
I don't think the gas can stand up to a long term pulling as the diesel should. I plan to keep the Dodge as long as we can. I had one almost 20 years.
Bob

 

[2010-mk-2900]

I can make this really easy...Travelling is meant to be relaxing.lol.A diesel will be worth every penny when you don't stress about trying to pass someone,making big hills or driving into the wind.This is all from experience,my wife told me to go and buy a new truck.I guess she was feeling my stress..She loves me more now when we travel.

 

[lwmcguir]

I agree with 2010-mk-2900 completely. There isn't even any comparison.

 

[wyleyrabbit]

A good friend of mine had a 30' TT and a gas Chevy 2500 truck. On the highway on level ground at highway speed, his accelerator pedal was most of the way to the ground. I couldn't imagine trying to tow up a hill through the mountains where the grades are regularly 10% to 14% with an underpowered truck.

I would never want to be stuck at the side of the highway because my truck wasn't strong enough to tow our trailer up a hill.

Go diesel, you'll never look back.

 

[bill40]

If you are going to try and pull anything fairly large and you don't want a deisel find yourself the largest gasser you can , with the lowest rear possible and don't try to go very high up in the mountains. If you can live with that youll be happy. OH expect about 8 to 10 mpg empty and don't worry about towing mpg just have a extra tank.

 

[boatdoc]

As been said many times for many years, " Real trucks don't have spark plugs"

 

[geeksrus]

With all the less favourable gasser comments above, would these apply to the F350 with the V10?

Eh!

 

[Rrloren]

In my observations the price of diesel runs around 10% higher than "regular" gas. MPG improvement in the 30 - 40% range to say nothing about better power , especially at altitude , and engine life. It does cost a bit more for oil changes but if you do it yourself the cost is pretty close.
I'd say the diesel is the best choice.

 

[skyguy]

Several years ago we purchased our first 5th wheel, moving up froma 24 foot TT. At the time, I had a F250, 460 gasser. Within about three months, I bought my F350 Superduty.

The difference between the two is so great you can't really make a "comparison"!!

When I learned the cost of oil changes, I decided I could do them myself and pocket the $70 difference. $70 for an easy hours work is pretty good pay!

My only complaint is the $50 is costs me for an annual "emissions test". It takes me longer to get out my credit card than it takes for them to do the test! What a racket that is!!

 

[JohnDar]

When we had the ~6000 lb. TT, I pulled it with a Chevy Avalanche (5.3 liter gasser) and got about 9 to 10 mpg and knew the trailer was back there at every slight hill. With the GMC, pulling the slightly larger BH3670, I get between 10 and 12 mpg, depending on the terrain. If it wasn't for the big, white mass in the rear view mirror, sometimes I'd forget it was back there.

 

[biggziff]

Hey all,

I've been reading the posts and articles about diesel vs. gas TV's. I need to come up with one in the near future. Not trying to step on anyone's toes, but let me share my diesel thoughts, and get your opinions:

Diesel - pro - 25-30% more mpg
con - Diesel is consistently 25-30% higher than gas (at least where I live now).
(Means the fuel costs are almost the same.)

pro - Engine lasts forever
con - Routine engine maintenance/repairs are double/triple the cost of gas.
(Means I could almost afford two new gas TV's vs. one new diesel TV over a 10 year period (exaggerated ))

pro - Tons more torque than gas
con - Great for 14,000+ lbs., but for 9,000-11,000 lbs.,

If money were no object, I'd head to the local Dodge dealership, and get a new Ram 4500 diesel. I haven't been blessed that well yet, though. :angel: WOW :angel:

Thanks

There are plenty of good, comprehensive, factual comparisons online...there are also plenty of opinions and anecdotal information. I went through this drill a few years ago when I bought a larger truck. Boiled down, here's what I found...

You can get a gas truck that has enough torque to pull 15,000-16,000 pounds. Ford V10 is one (500lbs ft of torque). With a $340 tuner you can have nearly 600 lbs ft of torque (Yes, dyno comfirmed) with a Ford V10. Most diesels have 650 lbs ft (according to the manufacturer...usually much less when actually dyno'd)

Fuel economy isn't 25% greater with the newer diesels. Any diesel with a particulate filter and regeneration programming will have significantly less MPG than it's older siblings without these "advances" The threads where people are complaining of poor MPG with their new diesel are myriad and easy to find.

Diesels do not "last forever". In fact, the useful service life of a large gas truck engine and a modern diesel are about the same. The advantage with the gasser is that you'll have spent significantly less over that 250,000-300,000 miles to maintain it. 25%-40% less depending on your requirements.

The acquisition costs on a diesel are significantly ($4500-$7000) higher. If you're financing this purchase you must consider the carrying costs as part of the cost of ownership. Several folks on ford-trucks.com have done this exercise and posted the costs. $5000 premium, financed over 60 months is about $6800 so add that to the $5000 premium you pay for the diesel and you have a true acquisition premium cost of $12,000. If you have lots of money lying around that you don't care about it's easy to over buy and get a truck that is big enough or way too big for your purposes. It takes some work to size it correctly, but the rewards are significant.

I bought a used 05 F250 with the V10. It is the same truck as the diesel model other than the engine and front springs (transmission, suspension, drivetrain, etc) so don't let someone confuse you that a gas truck isn't "strong" enough (whatever that means). I get 11.5-13.5 empty and towing from NY to Colorado (some pretty big hills in CO, no?) last year I got 9.4 MPG on a 5000 mile trip towing a 28' fifth wheel, 4 people and everything we needed for 30 days of travel. I did not have the tuner on my truck last year. BTW..my truck had 103,000 miles on it when I bought it 3 years ago so it's not new.

The best thing I learned was to decide what trailer you'll buy, then pick out the truck you need. Be sure to consider the "1/2 ton" Fords and Chevys if you're not buying some behemoth camper. The newer variety can safely tow many of the campers out there.

Good luck in your search. Plenty of resources available online. Consider carefully what you read.

 

[wyleyrabbit]

I second the "pick out your trailer first, then buy the appropriate truck". That's what we did and we couldn't be happier with our choice.

I am also a big fan of staying under the truck's maximum weights. Go with those over some guy that says "it'll tow fine".

Finally, I think truck tuners are a bad idea. If the engineers that designed the truck could have had an extra 100 HP, they would have. Remember they have access to the full source code to everything in those truck computers, unlike the aftermarket tuner companies. Add more HP to the engine and start saving your money for possible transmission (or other) problems. There just ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

My $0.02.

Chris

 

[caissiel]

The "1/2 ton" comment for me is just not applicable to a trailer that weights more then 7,000 Lbs, even if they advertise it can pull 10.000Lbs. At that weight the small trucks will not be able to hold the weight of the Pin, the trailer will cause the rear axle to twist and cause the shakes, even with air bags like most small truck owners do. I had a 1/2 ton on a 5000 Lbs trailer and never had the great drive untill I went with a 11000Lbs trailer and a GM2500.
I was at the automotive supply store one day and a fellow that asked me before, why I had a 6.5L was there buying a thermostat, he had the same truck as mine with a 350 engine. Well I was there also buying 2 thermostats for my truck, a coincidence for sure, Well we open the boxes and his had a 1/2" hole and my one of the 2 had a 1.5" hole. So I told him that was the reason I was driving a diesel. Where there is heat there is power and cooling is required, my 6.5L had 10 times the cooling as a 350. In addition my insurance was much lower with the 2500 compared to the previous 1500. The return on your investment for a diesel is maybe 100K down the road, but at the time the truck is sellable and very much in demand. My 6.5L lasted me 9 years pulling the 11000Lbs trailer and my neighbour has Dodge 1500 that looks like new and no millage. he can't sell it for any money above $8000 well at the same time I sold my GM 6.5L with 160K for $12000 to an other 5th wheel owner.

 

[biggziff]

The "1/2 ton" comment for me is just not applicable to a trailer that weights more then 7,000 Lbs, .

My only comment is to talk to the people actually towing with a 1/2 ton, not the folks that have never done it. I towed with a F150 with the 4.6 gasser for 3 years. My axles didn't twist, in fact I had no issues whatsoever. The newer 1/2 tons are being designed to tow the lighter campers. Don't discount them based on opinion without experience.

Merry Christmas

 

[caissiel]

I towed with a 1/4 ton Ranger and a chev 1/2 ton both I had for 3 years each. The chev was a diesel with heavy suspension and I had this neck jolt on both trucks, and they were Sticks (Standards) to so it was solid to the axle, we determined it was the the only thing that would cause this neck jolt on both trucks. It was just a little shake but I could feel it all the time. I did haul the 5th wheel on 2000 Miles trips often also. It don't realy hits you until you drive 10Hrs on the road and getting tired, and the jolt keeps going. The 2 trucks were like on a drag strip except it was for hrs at a time, the power was at th 100% mark all the time. My 6.5L was at 80% mark most of the time and now the Ford is at the 40-60% mark all the time, That is the difference having torque to haul.

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

My experience with 1/2 tons was a 97 F150 with the 4.6 and a GMC Yukon (short Avalanche) with a 5.3. The Ford, pulling a 6 X 10 enclosed cargo trailer loaded with a 1000# motorcycle, did a respectable job unless there was a head wind or hill. It would kick out of OD on anything more than a modest hill. The 5.3 Yukon was used to pull a 27ft. TT with a front kitchen (7400# GVRW). That translates to about 900# on the tongue. I was never able to use final drive and stayed in 4th with tow haul engaged running 2500 to 2700 RPM at highway speeds. I moved up to a 2500HD with the 8.1/Allison for the 27ft TT and the difference was night & day. The 8.1 with some simple mods but no chip will pull a house but I paid for it at the gas pumps. 7 to 8 mpg towing and never better than 12 not towing. That's when I bought the Bighorn. After a few short trips around Central WI we left for South TX for the Winter. We came home in the Spring with the 3500 Duramax. Bought on ebay and no regrets. Biggzif made a lot of very good points and I agree with all of them except I wouldn't consider a 1/2 ton for anything over 7000#. The Ford V10 and GM 8.1 are both awesome gassers but the 8.1 isn't offered any longer and would have to be bought used. In fact, a used truck may be a good option. Especially a Diesel.

 

[caissiel]

Talking about programers, I had a GM 6.5L Diesel for 9 years, 5 of those years I had the warranty on it and was getting bearly 13 MPG unloaded and 10MPG towing. It had great power but I was running 2 MPG less then my buddy towing my smaller trailer. I must a gone to the dealer at least 5 times to find the problem with the milage problem they told me everything was fine well I told them it was not normal with no load at low speed it was harder on fuel then at 70MPH. Well after warranty over I discussed this on the internet and the only solution was to go with manual adjusted Turbo Exhaust Gate, that I installed after the vacumm pump fell off. I adjusted to max allowable turbo boost (8 Lbs, not much but safe) at my highest RPM. The power increased while the milage just moved a bit I could feel it on the accelerator the truck was not all there as far as pep. I then bought a rheostat for $3.25 at radioshack and wired it in the system. The accelerator was quick and sensitive enough that the truck felt like a brand new truck. The milage went from 14 to 20 over the first setup, could not believe the power while empty. I did all my Firewood hauling in the bush that fall and the milage was over 20 and that was at low speed. I lost 6 miles per gallon over 120K miles for 7 years. Now don't ever tell me the Manufacturer is always right. They put in so much safeties for fools driving trucks that there is no power left for us drivers with experience. Hypertech just finds the power and efficiencies and pass it on to us for $300/400. As long as I have driven diesels I always did the most I can to make them last and for the last 16 years they have been ok. I did all of that while using a PC program that read the stats of my GM engine even 1/4 mile stats was available. Still have the program for all vehicles, but the scangauge is much easier to use without the PC.

 

[biggziff]

Talking about programers, I had a GM 6.5L Diesel for 9 years, 5 of those years I had the warranty on it and was getting bearly 13 MPG unloaded and 10MPG towing. It had great power but I was running 2 MPG less then my buddy towing my smaller trailer. I must a gone to the dealer at least 5 times to find the problem with the milage problem they told me everything was fine well I told them it was not normal with no load at low speed it was harder on fuel then at 70MPH. Well after warranty over I discussed this on the internet and the only solution was to go with manual adjusted Turbo Exhaust Gate, that I installed after the vacumm pump fell off. I adjusted to max allowable turbo boost (8 Lbs, not much but safe) at my highest RPM. The power increased while the milage just moved a bit I could feel it on the accelerator the truck was not all there as far as pep. I then bought a rheostat for $3.25 at radioshack and wired it in the system. The accelerator was quick and sensitive enough that the truck felt like a brand new truck. The milage went from 14 to 20 over the first setup, could not believe the power while empty. I did all my Firewood hauling in the bush that fall and the milage was over 20 and that was at low speed. I lost 6 miles per gallon over 120K miles for 7 years. Now don't ever tell me the Manufacturer is always right. They put in so much safeties for fools driving trucks that there is no power left for us drivers with experience. Hypertech just finds the power and efficiencies and pass it on to us for $300/400. As long as I have driven diesels I always did the most I can to make them last and for the last 16 years they have been ok. I did all of that while using a PC program that read the stats of my GM engine even 1/4 mile stats was available. Still have the program for all vehicles, but the scangauge is much easier to use without the PC.

A lot of people don't understand what the programmers can do so they're afraid of them. Perfectly understandable. When you dig in and talk to the guys that are making the programs you begin to see that they're not about squeezing more power out of the engine in most cases. On my V10 I have 3 custom tunes available. I use the 87 octane tune which mostly changes how the transmission works. Percentage of pressure at shift, TC lockup, shift point RPM, etc. These trucks are built and programmed so that the 99th percentile that drives them will like how smooth they shift and accelerate. Smooth shifts mean a lot of slipping discs in the clutch packs. Slippage means heat and wear. By tightening up the shifts and changing the shift points you actually create less wear on the tranny and increase the torque at the rear wheels making the truck a lot more usable when towing. My V10 is a different truck with the 87 octane tow tune. Truly an amazing transformation.

I had a tuner on my F150 4.6 and it too made a world of difference with the shifts and towing experience. I initially towed a 26' Shadow Cruiser fiver with it and then went to the 07 Keystone I tow now. Probably 9000 pounds ready to go. I wouldn't win any races, but it would go up any hill and worked very well for our purposes. Ya, the V10 yanks it around like it isn't there, but I didn't have the V10 back then. Had to work with what I had!

If you want to talk to someone who can explain it a lot better than I, call Mike at 5 Star Tuning http://www.5startuning.com/

Mike is dedicated to this stuff and truly is a magician with the Fords. He may do Chebbies too, but I don't know that for fact.

Take a read on rv.net and you'll find many, many 1/2 tons towing today with no ill effects. I'm sure some are over GCVWR, but most seem to be careful and stay within limits.