oscar
Well-known member
Actually, mirrors and other "appendages" are not considered part of your width.....so this point is arguable, both ways.
Outside Ladder.
- Thread starter oscar
- Start date
Actually, mirrors and other "appendages" are not considered part of your width.....so this point is arguable, both ways.
oscar
Well-known member
AJ, I have sent you three emails. One contains a diagram of the ladder and all failure points. The other two contain pictures. Thanks for working with me and taking this serious. I think we all agree that this thing coming off with me on it would be a bad day for everyone involved. As far as the need to have the ladder.......yesterday a serious line of thunderstorms came through central Florida and the coach was covered in pine cones, needles, branches, bark etc. Being able to easily get up there with a hose was a major convenience. Especially the crud on the slide outs would have caused major problems upon retraction.
Anyways, for those that are wondering what I'm talking about I have attached a picture, it depicts what's going on at 5 out of six attachment points. If you have a ladder, take a good look at it.
Anyways, for those that are wondering what I'm talking about I have attached a picture, it depicts what's going on at 5 out of six attachment points. If you have a ladder, take a good look at it.
Attachments
oscar
Well-known member
Of course the next order of business is to fix this. As I told AJ, I am a "tool man". Rather than driving hundreds of miles spending a lot of time and money on fuel and then dealing with a dealer who may or may not have the enthusiasm to deal with this properly, I'd rather do it myself in my driveway. I do appreciate any engineering support HL. can give, and will expect to be compensated for parts needed, or even better if they could fabricate said parts and send them to me. In fact, I think a Retrofit Outside Ladder Reinforcement Kit may be called for.
Because, just putting new screws in the old holes is not going to cut it. I think this needs to be approached from a "spread the load" and "make sure it's well attached" angle. I have done a half a century of sailing, and attaching hardware that doesn't come off is not foreign to me.
I envision 3 large 1/4" aluminum plates, , spanning the two brackets at the same level, which are bolted through with carriage bolts and backing plates or at least large washers on the inside. These plates should be bedded with a high adhesive sealant, like a 3M 5200, or 4200. Yes I know this would interfere with the graphics, but personally I don't care too much about that.
In these plates are threaded holes, probably a size larger than what is there now, and the ladder attachment brackets are then bolted on with proper hex bolts with lock washers, torqued to the proper spec.
Now, the only piece of information I am missing is what's in the wall right there. I was told that there is some metal in there to support the electric beds. So, based on what's there we may be able to come of with something less drastic, but equally effective.
Because, just putting new screws in the old holes is not going to cut it. I think this needs to be approached from a "spread the load" and "make sure it's well attached" angle. I have done a half a century of sailing, and attaching hardware that doesn't come off is not foreign to me.
I envision 3 large 1/4" aluminum plates, , spanning the two brackets at the same level, which are bolted through with carriage bolts and backing plates or at least large washers on the inside. These plates should be bedded with a high adhesive sealant, like a 3M 5200, or 4200. Yes I know this would interfere with the graphics, but personally I don't care too much about that.
In these plates are threaded holes, probably a size larger than what is there now, and the ladder attachment brackets are then bolted on with proper hex bolts with lock washers, torqued to the proper spec.
Now, the only piece of information I am missing is what's in the wall right there. I was told that there is some metal in there to support the electric beds. So, based on what's there we may be able to come of with something less drastic, but equally effective.
Thanks for sharing the photo.....definetly looks like an accident waiting to happen. That is why I have refused to climb on the rear ladder on my Landmark since I feel confident it would do the same thing. In fact, the ladder on my last fifthweel (SOB) broke the mounts in several locations after me climbing on it regularly so I modified it myself only to have it break again about one year later. Hopefully the engineers who design these things will eventually come up with something that is sturdy and will handle routine use by people who weigh more than a European fashion runway model. I don't think that is asking too much IMHO.
I noticed one of the screw heads on my ladder support is broken off as the screw exits the fiberglass. My 4100 is less than 3 weeks old and have only used the ladder 3 times not even going all the way up. The screws are not a strong enough grade when they are attached solidly.
Tool958
Well-known member
That's a lot beefier bracket on your ladder than is what is on ours. Our ladder attaches with what I consider minimal brackets. The ladder goes into the brackets at each point with round tubing. Each point on where the ladder attaches to the coach is held in place with a clip pin. I've always been afraid to use the ladder because of the way it's held in place. It really makes it unhandy when out on the road and no way to get on the roof. We usually haul bikes so don't have much room to store a ladder in the coach.
Mizmary
Well-known member
We have the same ladder issue on our cyclone. The hubby refuses to climb up and since we are parked under a shedding eucalyptus I have to get up and sweep that junk off the roof quite often. I am watching to see what happens. So far I have only noticed two de-headed screws. And I'm not taking it to the dealer if I can avoid it. They are slow slow slow and we full time with kids. Can't have our house in the shop for forever.
oscar
Well-known member
I've decided that I don't go up there often enough to justify having a ladder permanently mounted, let alone go through the ordeal of fixing HL's under engineering here and getting it mounted properly. It's coming off. In addition I must have whacked the hand bars on the roof with a tree branch or something as it is bent, and cracked near the mounts. So, that's coming off too, and the mounting points will be patched. Still trying to decide how to camouflage the holes for the ladder mounts on the wall. For now I'll patch them so I'm at least keeping the water out of the wall. I carry a folding ladder in the back of the TV which will get me up there if I have to.
Greengas
Well-known member
Did you ever hear back from HL? The brand manager seemed to be very interested (back in March) in finding out what the problem was/is. Or, was there initial interest then nothing? I currently own an Open Range 5'er (waiting on our new Landmark to be built) and its ladder is rock solid. I am going to be a very disappointed customer if I pay big bucks for a coach and can't trust the built on ladder to get me too the roof.
MTPockets
Well-known member
Looked at a new Landmark recently. First thing I went to the ladder and it was so flimsy we walked away. Heartland should be barrassed to be putting these things out like this. I added two pair of stanchions and one size larger SS screws/sealant - ladder is now pretty solid. (Heartland hearing these posts?)
oscar
Well-known member
There was interest. I was emailed a drawing showing where the studs are, and I stated that I would look at that and figure a solution myself. That's where the conversation ended.
I don't have the time to deal with a dealer/service provider and the resulting conversation to fix this. I am not saying HL is not willing, or able, I just don't want to deal with it.
Again, I don't really need this ladder, so it's not worth the effort. Not complaining about HL's position at this point.
Is it beyond crappy engineering to begin with? Yes it is.
Moving on.
I don't have the time to deal with a dealer/service provider and the resulting conversation to fix this. I am not saying HL is not willing, or able, I just don't want to deal with it.
Again, I don't really need this ladder, so it's not worth the effort. Not complaining about HL's position at this point.
Is it beyond crappy engineering to begin with? Yes it is.
Moving on.
Greengas
Well-known member
I was at my dealer today to do some paperwork and since they had two Landmarks on the lot I thought I would check out their exterior ladder. Wow! All it took was a little pressure from my hand and the entire ladder flexed. When my coach comes in I am going to point that out to the dealer and let them know that it is unacceptable and unsafe. Should be interesting to see what their response is.
MTPockets
Well-known member
my dealer nor Heartland offered any solution. This has been a topic literally for years As seen on this site if you do a search. Pretty frustrating for those of us concerned.
BIGRIGFORUS
Member
We have had serious issues with the plastic end caps used to secure the ladder rungs in place! So far 3 have failed making the ladder useless! In addition to that concern there were not enough stanchions installed to keep the ladder from flexing. Tried contacting hl about the problem, i informed hl that the ladder was of poor quality and unsafe. The hl customer service rep started an argument over the safety of this substandard part! I requested an upgrade to this part, that was available on the new 2013 cyclone ladder. The hl rep never called back with a final determination as requested.
MTPockets
Well-known member
. Heartland!... Jim Biletti..... Atwood!..... Someone help us... Going on too long and all I got from Atwood is "can't help" and Heartland "silence"....
Greengas
Well-known member
I asked Jim Biletti to address this concern in a post a while back. No response. No response from Heartland. My dealer said that the problem I'm having with the ladder not being stable is not because of the ladder itself, but because of the lack of reinforcement that Heartland builds into the back of the unit where they attach the ladder. Overall, I love my unit. But, even after the dealer "reattached" it per Heartlands instructions, the problem still exists. I know there have been comments on this forum about how out of so many thousands of ladders the amount of those with troubles is small. Well, as one of those owners with the small problem, I'm just frustrated, not only by the safety concern about a ladder that flexes when you step on it, but the lack of valid fix from Heartland. I really hope that the problem, both with the quality of the ladder for those who have that issue and the poor mounting support which causes flexing for others like me, gets resolved before someone has a significant injury.
Ok, off my soap box now.
danemayer
Well-known member
My 2 cents:
I've watched the flex while stepping onto the Atwood ladder from another ladder. The point that flexes is the first 90 degree bend over the roof mount. The horizontal standoffs on the ladder can't possibly provide very good vertical support to control this. As the ladder flexes from the top, the mounting screws get flexed up and down. I'm sure that's why the standoffs work loose.
I've been experimenting with this recently and wondered if I could reduce the flex by providing additional support on the top. Everything I tried put obvious stress on the roof that looked to me like it would cause a more serious problem than loose standoffs.
Although I'm not a mechanical engineer, after looking at it quite a bit and doing a few experiments, my amateur conclusion is that it would take a significant redesign effort involving both ladder and roof mount, and perhaps a redesigned standoff that has a vertical support component.
Perhaps Heartland engineering can work with Atwood to get an improvement on future builds. Based on my experience with product life cycles, I'd expect if they started tomorrow, it would probably be well over a year before you saw it on an RV. And because I think they'd have to make changes in the roof, I'd guess that it's not very likely any redesign could easily be used to retrofit older units.
For now I'll continue to control the flex by supporting the ladder from underneath and perhaps by the time I buy the next RV, there'll be a better ladder.
I've watched the flex while stepping onto the Atwood ladder from another ladder. The point that flexes is the first 90 degree bend over the roof mount. The horizontal standoffs on the ladder can't possibly provide very good vertical support to control this. As the ladder flexes from the top, the mounting screws get flexed up and down. I'm sure that's why the standoffs work loose.
I've been experimenting with this recently and wondered if I could reduce the flex by providing additional support on the top. Everything I tried put obvious stress on the roof that looked to me like it would cause a more serious problem than loose standoffs.
Although I'm not a mechanical engineer, after looking at it quite a bit and doing a few experiments, my amateur conclusion is that it would take a significant redesign effort involving both ladder and roof mount, and perhaps a redesigned standoff that has a vertical support component.
Perhaps Heartland engineering can work with Atwood to get an improvement on future builds. Based on my experience with product life cycles, I'd expect if they started tomorrow, it would probably be well over a year before you saw it on an RV. And because I think they'd have to make changes in the roof, I'd guess that it's not very likely any redesign could easily be used to retrofit older units.
For now I'll continue to control the flex by supporting the ladder from underneath and perhaps by the time I buy the next RV, there'll be a better ladder.
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