jpmorgan37
Well-known member
Way to go Cheryl.
John
John
Overweight
- Thread starter Sawbonz
- Start date
Thanks Cheryl I know this is a touchy subject, and I beleive the whole auto and rv industry are in need of better education on the weight subject. We've had rv dealers tell us that a 3/4 ton diesel will easily pull a 5'er with gvwr of 15k. I was talking to the truck dealer (Sales Manager) the other day telling him that I wanted a F350 dually Tow Boss for my next truck at end of this year, and he tried talking me down to a SRW 1-Ton. Said it was more than enough truck for what I was going to tow with it. All they talk about about is the power they have to tow these trailers, never about weight ratings, carrying capacity or stopping ability or added safty margin of dual rear wheels. Tthe bottom line is we all want to enjoy our trailers and be safe doing so.
Thanks TrapNone
Thanks TrapNone
Last edited:
Cheryl
Well-known member
I guess it is touchy, I was just trying to keep the peace.
The lumping of a group of people for whatever reason is just one of my little "pet peeves". As for the salesman trying to talk you into something, the best way to "combat" that is to do research, research and then, MORE research. Salespeople don't know everything either - I can say that, I used to be one.
The lumping of a group of people for whatever reason is just one of my little "pet peeves". As for the salesman trying to talk you into something, the best way to "combat" that is to do research, research and then, MORE research. Salespeople don't know everything either - I can say that, I used to be one.
Ken,
the only time I followed a vehicle at ten feet or less was when someone cut if front of me and it took a few seconds for me to drop back and yield to he/she. I do know I can't stop on a dime nor can any of us driving these RVs.
Anyone can walk into any RV dealer and drive out in any size RV with no familiarization or training other than the RV systems. IE, AC, tanks, TV, Refridgerator, slides etc. How much time does the salesperson spend asking about the tow vehicle or your familiarizition with driving a big truck. That is what we are driving "big trucks". Think about the fact that we are using for the most part magnetic brakes and the big trucks use air brakes; think about the square inches of brake surface per gross ton on a typical RV vs. the square inches of brake surface per gross ton on a semi. Run the numbers and you will leave your RV in the driveway. Most of the semis now are running disc brakes. We in RV dreamland are still in the drum brake world. If I hit a nerve I apologize to you. If I make only one more person aware of what it takes to stop our rigs it is worth posting. Safety, first, last and always. The saying is way older than I am but it is still true.
Wildwood, you are probably beyond help from either me or Ken but I will try to get to Milan, Michigan and start the reclamation project.
Best wishes and safe living to all,
jdw
the only time I followed a vehicle at ten feet or less was when someone cut if front of me and it took a few seconds for me to drop back and yield to he/she. I do know I can't stop on a dime nor can any of us driving these RVs.
Anyone can walk into any RV dealer and drive out in any size RV with no familiarization or training other than the RV systems. IE, AC, tanks, TV, Refridgerator, slides etc. How much time does the salesperson spend asking about the tow vehicle or your familiarizition with driving a big truck. That is what we are driving "big trucks". Think about the fact that we are using for the most part magnetic brakes and the big trucks use air brakes; think about the square inches of brake surface per gross ton on a typical RV vs. the square inches of brake surface per gross ton on a semi. Run the numbers and you will leave your RV in the driveway. Most of the semis now are running disc brakes. We in RV dreamland are still in the drum brake world. If I hit a nerve I apologize to you. If I make only one more person aware of what it takes to stop our rigs it is worth posting. Safety, first, last and always. The saying is way older than I am but it is still true.
Wildwood, you are probably beyond help from either me or Ken but I will try to get to Milan, Michigan and start the reclamation project.
Best wishes and safe living to all,
jdw
jpmorgan37
Well-known member
JoeW4300;
Joe, I'm curious. What are you pulling your Bighorn with? I guess you would classify me as one of those morans, but I too have over a million miles on the road and many of them pulling a trailer, although it didn't weigh 50 bushels but by the Grace of God, I made it. In defense of my ignorance, I am looking for a decent MDT that will give me a little more contact patch on the asphalt.
John
Joe, I'm curious. What are you pulling your Bighorn with? I guess you would classify me as one of those morans, but I too have over a million miles on the road and many of them pulling a trailer, although it didn't weigh 50 bushels but by the Grace of God, I made it. In defense of my ignorance, I am looking for a decent MDT that will give me a little more contact patch on the asphalt.
John
happyrover
Active Member
I have read a half dozen ways to get correct tow weights involving GVW, pin weight, GAW, GCVW, etc. Could someone please enlighten as to the proper procedure here.
SmokeyBare
Well-known member
How our Rig was weighed...
We attended a Rally in Chico California this spring put on by the camping club called Escapee's. There was a vendor there who offered weighing RV's. The Vendor was sponsored by RVSEF which stands for Recreational Vehicle Safety Education Foundation.
1. Because we pull a FifthWheel Trailer we first had our truck weighed with the trailer Not attached. Both of us were in the truck. I also made sure the fuel tank was full to give an honest weight as if we were traveling.
2. Next we had the trailer attached and was instructed to drive our Rig on the individual scales. They first placed the 4 scales under each of the truck's tires.
3. They then placed the individual scales under each of the trailer's tires.
The weight they got from the truck only without the trailer attached was then subtracted from the weight they got from # 1 - this provided the true weight on the fifthwheel hitch pin. "hitch Pin weight "
By reading each truck tire from step # 2 - they could determined if any tire was overloaded per the tire Manufacturer's Maximum Load Rating. In our case I had a heavy tool box shifted to one side of the of the box behind the truck cab. I have since then shifted it to the middle of this storage box.
By placing the scales under each trailer tire in step # 3 - they could then determine if the trailer was over-weight by what the RV manufacturer's GVWR " Gross Vehicle Weight Rating" as well as learning if the truck and trailer together exceeded the Trucks towing rating of combined weight trailer and truck together.
Step # 3 also provides weight of each axle to determine if they are over loaded as well as telling if each tire was overloaded. "We found this to be our case as well"... Our trailer was heavy in the left rear corner. Off went two boxes via the Postal service of hard covered books to a safe storage location.
I believe this was a very good method of weighing the Rig, offering honest weights that was better able to help us know what area was heavy which offered us a better understanding of things we could move and how much weight we needed to remove from the trailer.
Hope this was clear and is of some aid.
We attended a Rally in Chico California this spring put on by the camping club called Escapee's. There was a vendor there who offered weighing RV's. The Vendor was sponsored by RVSEF which stands for Recreational Vehicle Safety Education Foundation.
1. Because we pull a FifthWheel Trailer we first had our truck weighed with the trailer Not attached. Both of us were in the truck. I also made sure the fuel tank was full to give an honest weight as if we were traveling.
2. Next we had the trailer attached and was instructed to drive our Rig on the individual scales. They first placed the 4 scales under each of the truck's tires.
3. They then placed the individual scales under each of the trailer's tires.
The weight they got from the truck only without the trailer attached was then subtracted from the weight they got from # 1 - this provided the true weight on the fifthwheel hitch pin. "hitch Pin weight "
By reading each truck tire from step # 2 - they could determined if any tire was overloaded per the tire Manufacturer's Maximum Load Rating. In our case I had a heavy tool box shifted to one side of the of the box behind the truck cab. I have since then shifted it to the middle of this storage box.
By placing the scales under each trailer tire in step # 3 - they could then determine if the trailer was over-weight by what the RV manufacturer's GVWR " Gross Vehicle Weight Rating" as well as learning if the truck and trailer together exceeded the Trucks towing rating of combined weight trailer and truck together.
Step # 3 also provides weight of each axle to determine if they are over loaded as well as telling if each tire was overloaded. "We found this to be our case as well"... Our trailer was heavy in the left rear corner. Off went two boxes via the Postal service of hard covered books to a safe storage location.
I believe this was a very good method of weighing the Rig, offering honest weights that was better able to help us know what area was heavy which offered us a better understanding of things we could move and how much weight we needed to remove from the trailer.
Hope this was clear and is of some aid.
sonnybeech
Member
I can’t understand why this is such a touchy subject for everyone I fill if the shoe fits wear it! If it doesn’t apply forget it. I did the research with all the formula, questioned the dealers and they said don’t worry it will pull anything they got!!!
We've had RV dealers tell us that a 3/4-ton diesel will easily pull a 5'er with gvwr of 15k.
Note: the ¾ and 1 ton SWR were rated the same for 2005!
When comparing trucks towing and 5th wheel at 23.500 lbs, vs. 18-wheelers at 80,000 lbs! In my onion your talking apples and oranges sure you have the same principles driving down the road or CDL requirement as instructions or experience what ever the case maybe, but. Every 18 wheeler and larger has two or three as a minimum braking system on board in some have transmission retarders (There are probably more that I never used) and your talking 80,000 lbs on the norm.
I drove for the US Air force and handled specialized equipment that didn’t exceed 133,000 Lbs on the highway we had to ship some assets by rail because they exceeded the weight. We haven’t talked about speed restriction we had and in most cases it was had to average 55 mph over the road and others vehicles that would get to 70 or 75 Mph but weighing 133,000Lbs these vehicles were hard to stop at the higher speeds, so for safety reason we traveled at lower speeds and even slow when going down grades. We’ll I guess I have rambled on about never conclusive subject!
I had some PDF files and tried to attach so I recommend if your not sure go to the manufactures web site the information data is there.
richardb1952
Member
Don't 5th wheels have brakes too ?
I was just wondering why the trucks braking power is so important when the trailer is equiped with brakes also. The truck should be able to handle the GVW and I would think the 5th wheel braking system should be able to handle the the fifth wheel GVW. What am I missing here?
I was just wondering why the trucks braking power is so important when the trailer is equiped with brakes also. The truck should be able to handle the GVW and I would think the 5th wheel braking system should be able to handle the the fifth wheel GVW. What am I missing here?
jpmorgan37
Well-known member
Richard;
Look at the tire patch; the amount of rubber contacting the road on your tow vehicle and on the trailer. On the average single rear wheel truck you have a total of approximately 12 square inches and on our trailers, just slightly more. How much combined weight do you have? 20, 22, 24,000 pounds? I don't want to depend on my trailer having to stop that much weight when I'm travelling 60 mph or 88 feet per second. Especially if I'm going down a 6 or 7% grade where I'm working the brakes and heating them to the fading point. We have adequate brakes on our trailers, providing they are properly adjusted and the magnets are connected and the drums are grease free. I opted for the optional 3 3/4 brakes on my coach. They are adequate but I sure don't want to have to depend on them for my main stopping power. Just my opinion
Look at the tire patch; the amount of rubber contacting the road on your tow vehicle and on the trailer. On the average single rear wheel truck you have a total of approximately 12 square inches and on our trailers, just slightly more. How much combined weight do you have? 20, 22, 24,000 pounds? I don't want to depend on my trailer having to stop that much weight when I'm travelling 60 mph or 88 feet per second. Especially if I'm going down a 6 or 7% grade where I'm working the brakes and heating them to the fading point. We have adequate brakes on our trailers, providing they are properly adjusted and the magnets are connected and the drums are grease free. I opted for the optional 3 3/4 brakes on my coach. They are adequate but I sure don't want to have to depend on them for my main stopping power. Just my opinion
richardb1952
Member
Thanks John,
My thought continued is that it isn't the tire that is stopping the vehicle but rather the Brakes. If it gets to the point of the rubber stopping the vehicle, whether you have a F-350 or a F-550, you're in trouble. I wrestle with this because I have an 2000 F-350 diesel and would really like the Landmark Grand Canyon when I go Full-time. I now have a 32' hornet 5th wheel which is pulled nicely with my f-350. I had originally thought I had enough truck to haul just about anything but I feel I am probally going to be over the limit with the Landmark. Most RV'ers who have the MDTs tend to think that an MDT is the least you should haul a 13000 plus lb. 5th wheel . I do see some posts that do haul with an 13000 plus with a f-350 and I think my next truck will be an MDT. I would just like to get started with the F-350 and upgrading the Landmark with better brakes and anything else that will help make it safer.
Thanks again.
My thought continued is that it isn't the tire that is stopping the vehicle but rather the Brakes. If it gets to the point of the rubber stopping the vehicle, whether you have a F-350 or a F-550, you're in trouble. I wrestle with this because I have an 2000 F-350 diesel and would really like the Landmark Grand Canyon when I go Full-time. I now have a 32' hornet 5th wheel which is pulled nicely with my f-350. I had originally thought I had enough truck to haul just about anything but I feel I am probally going to be over the limit with the Landmark. Most RV'ers who have the MDTs tend to think that an MDT is the least you should haul a 13000 plus lb. 5th wheel . I do see some posts that do haul with an 13000 plus with a f-350 and I think my next truck will be an MDT. I would just like to get started with the F-350 and upgrading the Landmark with better brakes and anything else that will help make it safer.
Thanks again.
jpmorgan37
Well-known member
Richard;
When I bought the Grand Canyon, I had a GMC 2500 HD Duramax/Allison. I had been pulling a SeaBreeze 33 foot prior to that. Pulling power was not a problem. I could snatch either of them up a 7 or 9 % grade and not drop below 55 mph. Coming down was a different story and when some four wheeler would cut in front of me and slam on their brakes to make a turn, I had to rely on the trailer brakes and my reflexes to keep from running over them. I tell you that the size of the tow vehicle does make a significant difference in my personal comfort. I would say the if your 350 is a dually, you will be fine and should enjoy the ride. I got the 550 for two reasons, one, I got a great deal and two, I wanted the bigger tow vehicle.
John
When I bought the Grand Canyon, I had a GMC 2500 HD Duramax/Allison. I had been pulling a SeaBreeze 33 foot prior to that. Pulling power was not a problem. I could snatch either of them up a 7 or 9 % grade and not drop below 55 mph. Coming down was a different story and when some four wheeler would cut in front of me and slam on their brakes to make a turn, I had to rely on the trailer brakes and my reflexes to keep from running over them. I tell you that the size of the tow vehicle does make a significant difference in my personal comfort. I would say the if your 350 is a dually, you will be fine and should enjoy the ride. I got the 550 for two reasons, one, I got a great deal and two, I wanted the bigger tow vehicle.
John
jpmorgan37
Well-known member
Richard, as an addendum to my last. It is the tire that is stopping the vehicle because that is what contacts the asphalt. 'nuff said.
John
John
sonnybeech
Member
Ford 05 weights
My set up, 05 F250 4x4 SWR front GWR at 5200lbs and rear at 6100 lbs for a total 11,3000 weights are under by 760 lbs front and over 100 rear
With 3055 RL Bighorn rated at 14,000 GWR and at 10,700lbs I am under 3300 lbs for combine 21,440 lb GCWR less water about 640 lbs if full and I have the max GCWR 23,000 lb GVWR by 14 lb, even with the heavy Duty and four wheel drive.
My posted weights are from a Flying J ticket that included a truck bed mounted tool box, ¾ full gas tank (30 Gal). 3 Propane tanks and 2 were low (Probably 10 lbs full) so normally I would be over by 10 to15 lbs over.
Truck & Trailer (Scaled)
4440 lb front axle
6300 lb rear axle
10,700 lb trailer axle
-----------------
21440 lb total combined truck & trailer weight
My set up, 05 F250 4x4 SWR front GWR at 5200lbs and rear at 6100 lbs for a total 11,3000 weights are under by 760 lbs front and over 100 rear
With 3055 RL Bighorn rated at 14,000 GWR and at 10,700lbs I am under 3300 lbs for combine 21,440 lb GCWR less water about 640 lbs if full and I have the max GCWR 23,000 lb GVWR by 14 lb, even with the heavy Duty and four wheel drive.
My posted weights are from a Flying J ticket that included a truck bed mounted tool box, ¾ full gas tank (30 Gal). 3 Propane tanks and 2 were low (Probably 10 lbs full) so normally I would be over by 10 to15 lbs over.
Truck & Trailer (Scaled)
4440 lb front axle
6300 lb rear axle
10,700 lb trailer axle
-----------------
21440 lb total combined truck & trailer weight
cdbMidland
Past Michigan Chapter Leader
You don't mention what the door sticker shows for GVRW of the F250 - which is less than the total of the front and back. My guess is that you are over the GVRW of the truck.
RickNB
Well-known member
I have been following this thread since it started and have it watched it go off topic a few times but have read some interesting statements which I dont understand too well.
I know that breaking is always a touchy subject and we have all read numerous threads about "you wont be able to stop it" . I would feel a lot better if those statements were justified a bit more using some logic and physics both of which I am lacking.
Maybe some of the more knowledgable members can tell us why a dually provides more breaking power ? The theory behind more rubber on the road does not follow the rules of physics. Breaking power is supplied by a brake shoe applying pressure to the wheel causing resistance to stop the wheel from turning up to the point of locking up the wheel from turning at all this should happen if the brakes are working properly. Would having larger brake pads supply more breaking power at this point? Does a dually have larger brake pads than a non dually? does a 1 ton have larger brake pads than a 3/4 ton? If a TV or a trailer have the ability to lock up its wheels wheather it is a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton does one have more stoping ability than the other. (yes most TV have ABS to prevent locking)
Another factor that comes into the equation with a dually is that there is more rubber on the road therfore the weight is distributed across a larger surface area reducing the weight per square area thus reducing the amount of friction.
Trailer manufacturers purchase axel assemblys for their trailers with a built for limit of say 7000lbs in the case of a BigHorn and 5200lbs for a Sundance. These axels are built to carry that much weight and are also equiped with brakes that will stop that much weight. Now we all know that some of the weight of the trailer is carried by the TV (hitch weight) and if we were to load that much weight to the bed of the TV as dry weight the TV will require more time to stop than it will empty.
If the trailer does not have sufficient braking power the TV could be pushed into a jacknife situation in a panic stop. Would relying on the TV brakes for stopping the trailer not be a very dangerous situation?
Trailer brakes must be properly maintained and be controled by a propererly adjusted controller just the same as the TV . The two must work togeather to provide a safe breaking system. Trailer brakes should be tested everytime you pull on to the road just the same as checking the lights before leaving.
My final question is why will a dually or a MTD provide better breaking for the same weight trailer than a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton ?
Have Fun
Rick
I know that breaking is always a touchy subject and we have all read numerous threads about "you wont be able to stop it" . I would feel a lot better if those statements were justified a bit more using some logic and physics both of which I am lacking
.Maybe some of the more knowledgable members can tell us why a dually provides more breaking power ? The theory behind more rubber on the road does not follow the rules of physics. Breaking power is supplied by a brake shoe applying pressure to the wheel causing resistance to stop the wheel from turning up to the point of locking up the wheel from turning at all this should happen if the brakes are working properly. Would having larger brake pads supply more breaking power at this point? Does a dually have larger brake pads than a non dually? does a 1 ton have larger brake pads than a 3/4 ton? If a TV or a trailer have the ability to lock up its wheels wheather it is a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton does one have more stoping ability than the other. (yes most TV have ABS to prevent locking)
Another factor that comes into the equation with a dually is that there is more rubber on the road therfore the weight is distributed across a larger surface area reducing the weight per square area thus reducing the amount of friction.
Trailer manufacturers purchase axel assemblys for their trailers with a built for limit of say 7000lbs in the case of a BigHorn and 5200lbs for a Sundance. These axels are built to carry that much weight and are also equiped with brakes that will stop that much weight. Now we all know that some of the weight of the trailer is carried by the TV (hitch weight) and if we were to load that much weight to the bed of the TV as dry weight the TV will require more time to stop than it will empty.
If the trailer does not have sufficient braking power the TV could be pushed into a jacknife situation in a panic stop. Would relying on the TV brakes for stopping the trailer not be a very dangerous situation?
Trailer brakes must be properly maintained and be controled by a propererly adjusted controller just the same as the TV . The two must work togeather to provide a safe breaking system. Trailer brakes should be tested everytime you pull on to the road just the same as checking the lights before leaving.
My final question is why will a dually or a MTD provide better breaking for the same weight trailer than a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton ?
Have Fun
Rick
nhunter
Well-known member
I'll bite. The dually will have increased braking as the doubled contact patch of the decreases the lockup point of the tire. To my knowledge duallies have the same brakes as a SRW. Brake shoes are slowing the wheel but ultimately the tire is stopping the unit - no friction between wheel and road = no stopping. Larger brake shoes will slow the wheel faster BUT if you reach the lock up point, the advantage is lost. Think of a drag race car, they will run slower with smaller( narrower ) tires. Same engine less friction between wheel and road.
"If the trailer does not have sufficient braking power the TV could be pushed into a jacknife situation in a panic stop. Would relying on the TV brakes for stopping the trailer not be a very dangerous situation?"
-It is possible with the right conditions you could have a jackknife but not having trailer brakes doesn't mean you will. It can on icy roads so sometimes I will only use trailer brakes to slow unit.
"Trailer brakes must be properly maintained and be controled by a propererly adjusted controller just the same as the TV . The two must work togeather to provide a safe breaking system. Trailer brakes should be tested everytime you pull on to the road just the same as checking the lights before leaving."
-It is true but due to the nature of the trailers magnet / electric brake and their exposure to rocks, foreign objects that hit them I feel they are not as reliable. TV brakes are self adjusting, trailer brakes aren't. Some check them, some don't.
"My final question is why will a dually or a MTD provide better breaking for the same weight trailer than a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton ? "
-Again with the increased contact patch and larger brakes on a MTD.
Hope that helps. Anyone can feel free to add on.
"If the trailer does not have sufficient braking power the TV could be pushed into a jacknife situation in a panic stop. Would relying on the TV brakes for stopping the trailer not be a very dangerous situation?"
-It is possible with the right conditions you could have a jackknife but not having trailer brakes doesn't mean you will. It can on icy roads so sometimes I will only use trailer brakes to slow unit.
"Trailer brakes must be properly maintained and be controled by a propererly adjusted controller just the same as the TV . The two must work togeather to provide a safe breaking system. Trailer brakes should be tested everytime you pull on to the road just the same as checking the lights before leaving."
-It is true but due to the nature of the trailers magnet / electric brake and their exposure to rocks, foreign objects that hit them I feel they are not as reliable. TV brakes are self adjusting, trailer brakes aren't. Some check them, some don't.
"My final question is why will a dually or a MTD provide better breaking for the same weight trailer than a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton ? "
-Again with the increased contact patch and larger brakes on a MTD.
Hope that helps. Anyone can feel free to add on.
