RV Hot-Skin electrical shocks

Elevatorman

Active Member
Much has been said about the accuracy of the tripping point of some home breakers, even brand new ones. Stories of 20 amp breakers not tripping until well past 40 amps. This now makes me wonder how accurate these older weather exposed pedestal breakers in many campgrounds are, and whether there should be routine testing and inspections done for safety reasons. I personally would like to see NEMA-4, or maybe 4x codes applied to these pedestals, as well as ground fault protection back to the power source. I'm sure if regulations are imposed on the CG owners, then it will be passed on to those who use the facilities, in the form of higher costs. Of course I've never minded trading safety for cost. Does anyone know if new CG's are installing a more water resistant type of pedestal, or ground faults due to new code regs.? While you can't beat a good Fluke meter, I have always used a non-contact tester around the house, and never thought of using it on the RV. Mine is a Gardner Bender 12-600 VAC, and has never let me down. Thanks Mike-good stuff!!
 

merlinb

Retired
I just found the Fluke 1AC-A II tester at Lowe's. Got it for $22.47 after my military discount, plus $1.12 tax. $23.59 total. I will be carrying this in my trailer from now on. :)
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Much has been said about the accuracy of the tripping point of some home breakers, even brand new ones. Stories of 20 amp breakers not tripping until well past 40 amps. This now makes me wonder how accurate these older weather exposed pedestal breakers in many campgrounds are, and whether there should be routine testing and inspections done for safety reasons. I personally would like to see NEMA-4, or maybe 4x codes applied to these pedestals, as well as ground fault protection back to the power source. I'm sure if regulations are imposed on the CG owners, then it will be passed on to those who use the facilities, in the form of higher costs. Of course I've never minded trading safety for cost. Does anyone know if new CG's are installing a more water resistant type of pedestal, or ground faults due to new code regs.? While you can't beat a good Fluke meter, I have always used a non-contact tester around the house, and never thought of using it on the RV. Mine is a Gardner Bender 12-600 VAC, and has never let me down. Thanks Mike-good stuff!!

I don't see campgrounds adopting more stringent pedestal codes anytime soon, since they're all just surviving hand to mouth as it is. And your point about circuit breaker tripping points in aged equipment is spot on, but probably less of a safety issue than open grounds on shore power connections. That being said, simply testing all pedestal outlets for correct N-H polarity and a solid low-impedance connection back to the campground's service panel ground would go a long way towards reducing RV shock hazards. I've already contacted the educational division of the NFPA to see if they'll help fund a public awareness campaign about RV electrical safety. But every voice helps, so if anybody on this forum knows anyone involved in RV or campground electrical systems, please email them my links at www.noshockzone.org and www.youtube.com/howtoseminars and have them contact me about bringing this important information to the masses.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

jmsokol

Active Member
I just found the Fluke 1AC-A II tester at Lowe's. Got it for $22.47 after my military discount, plus $1.12 tax. $23.59 total. I will be carrying this in my trailer from now on. :)

Excellent price find. Please let me know if you discover any hot-skin conditions with it. As I've noted on other forums, a VoltAlert can be carried in your pocket and used to casually test other RVs at a campground for hot-skin voltage. Since there's no sharp meter leads to mark the paint, and you really only need to get within an inch of an RV to find 40 volts of hot-skin, it's the perfect passive test. In fact, if you find an RV with 120 volts of hot-skin , a standard 90-volt Fluke VoltAlert will light up and start beeping about 12 to 18 inches away from anything metal on the RV. I typically test the wheels or hitch on the RV since that's always connected to the chassis ground, but metal entrance steps are just as good.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 
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jmsokol

Active Member
I'm curious as to how many of you plug your RVs into a regular power outlet in the home or garage?

And how many of you have had a dedicated RV outlet installed?

Thanks for the info.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
I'm curious as to how many of you plug your RVs into a regular power outlet in the home or garage?

And how many of you have had a dedicated RV outlet installed?

Thanks for the info.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org

Mike,

I received your PM and Jim Fenner told me he got a call from you. I will get with you when I get a chance.

In response to your question above, I am building a home and will be installing a 50 amp RV receptacle outdoors for friends to plug into. I will have the same receptacle inside the RV garage.

I sometimes visit my mother in another state and I installed a 30 amp breaker and surface mount exterior 30 amp RV receptacle.

Jim
 

Manzan

Well-known member
I plug our NT 21FBS into a 20 amp circuit. It has extra heavy wire and it is the only outlet. From there, I have a 50' heavy duty extension cord that the trailer plugs into. I would rather have a 30 amp plug where I keep the trailer but that would take some doing, the least of which is getting a permit. The line would have to be buried, dodging sewer, water and gas lines. The trailer sits about 20' lower than the house and is as close as I can get it. Have never had a problem running the AC but that is about all I have on at a time.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
I plug our NT 21FBS into a 20 amp circuit. It has extra heavy wire and it is the only outlet. From there, I have a 50' heavy duty extension cord that the trailer plugs into. I would rather have a 30 amp plug where I keep the trailer but that would take some doing, the least of which is getting a permit. The line would have to be buried, dodging sewer, water and gas lines. The trailer sits about 20' lower than the house and is as close as I can get it. Have never had a problem running the AC but that is about all I have on at a time.
I'm curious to know if you've checked that home outlet for proper polarity and ground.

If so, how did you test it?

Also, is there a GFCI on that home outlet circuit?

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

rebootsemi

Well-known member
I'm curious to know if you've checked that home outlet for proper polarity and ground.

If so, how did you test it?

Also, is there a GFCI on that home outlet circuit?

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org

Funny you should ask these questions. When I was doing all of the grounding training for our company we issued all of the testing equipment. One item was a Ideal Suretest 61-165. After instructing the tech's on how to use it I instructed them that when they go home to test all of the circuits in there homes. You wouldn't believe how many informed me of wiring problems in their own homes. Just because there is a GFCI in the circuit how do you know if it actually works? We found that about 50% of the old GFCI's fail when properly tested, will not trip, trip too slow. Lightning reeks havoc with GFCI's, unit looks fine but does it still work properly?
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Funny you should ask these questions. When I was doing all of the grounding training for our company we issued all of the testing equipment. One item was a Ideal Suretest 61-165. After instructing the tech's on how to use it I instructed them that when they go home to test all of the circuits in there homes. You wouldn't believe how many informed me of wiring problems in their own homes. Just because there is a GFCI in the circuit how do you know if it actually works? We found that about 50% of the old GFCI's fail when properly tested, will not trip, trip too slow. Lightning reeks havoc with GFCI's, unit looks fine but does it still work properly?

I have both the Suretest and Amprobe INSP-3 testers, as well as a Woodhead GLIT, which I just used this morning to test an outlet at my Dad's house. All are too expensive for the average RV owner, costing between $250 and $800 (for a used Woodhead GLIT on eBay), but certainly should be required gear for all electricians and campground maintenance guys.

And yes, you're absolutely correct. Just as surge protectors are damaged by nearby lighting strikes and can be rendered non-operable without any visual indicators, (how many of you knew THAT?), GFCI breakers can be stressed by age, weather, and lightning, which may then fail to trip at the 6 mA leakage current rating, if at all. I've also seen campgrounds put electrical tape on their circuit breakers in the "on position" to keep them from "wearing out" when RV owners should be shutting off the pedestal breakers every time they plug and unplug shore power. Of course, the electrical tape won't stop the circuit breakers from over-current tripping at 20, 30, or 50 amps, but it's really the best idea to plug your RV shore power connector into a "cold" pedestal outlet, since hot-plugging can cause arc damage to your contacts and such.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

TedS

Well-known member
Installed a 50amp outlet for the RV. Got lucky. The house has an abandoned 50amp circuit for a hot tub. Replace the 50amp GFCI breaker with a non-GFCI breaker.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Installed a 50amp outlet for the RV. Got lucky. The house has an abandoned 50amp circuit for a hot tub. Replace the 50amp GFCI breaker with a non-GFCI breaker.
Good way to re-purpose a circuit. And for those who don't know, the 50 and 30 amp outlets on a campsite pedestal DO NOT have their own GFCI circuit. Your RV's own electrical system is supposed to supply the Ground Fault protection itself.

Also, there would be nothing wrong with running a 2-pole 30-amp circuit breaker to a standard RV 50-amp 120/240-volt outlet, as long as you didn't expect the circuit to supply all 100 amps of 120-volt power. Even if you did exceed the 30 amps max draw on a single leg, the 30-amp circuit breaker would simply trip off, and no breaker or wire damage would occur. However, I would carefully mark that power outlet with a 30-amps max load sign, just so nobody in the future gets confused. And certainly if you can afford it (or get lucky with an abandoned hot tub circuit) a permanent, dedicated, 50-amp, 120/240Volt RV pedestal outlet is the gold standard.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone. org
 

porthole

Retired
after all this discussion, i had to run out and pick up one of the ac volt-alerts.. it is going in the truck pocket from now on

Ordered mine from Amazon yesterday. Being an Amazon Prime member means I should have it tomorrow, just in time for this weeks rally.

I'm curious as to how many of you plug your RVs into a regular power outlet in the home or garage?

And how many of you have had a dedicated RV outlet installed?

Dedicated 30amp RV box.
 

rebootsemi

Well-known member
First thing I did when we bought the Sundance was install a 50 amp RV (Homedepot Model # CHU1S) box on the side of the shop. Used 40 amp breakers which will more than run everything in the trailer. Lucky the breaker box for the shop is right on the other side of the wall minimum amount of wire. I ran a little test to see how much stuff I could run in the trailer while hooked up with a 50' 12 ga extension cord and a 20 amp breaker. Ran the a/c and some of the lights/tv all afternoon, circuit was drawing around 19 amps. Got it up to almost 30 amps with the microwave without tripping the breaker but I did not let it stay there to long to heat thing up too much.
 

Rodney_M

Member
I am having a 50 amp installed in front of our 3rd garage door. A friend who is a commercial electrician in between main jobs is installing it at a very reasonable price.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
I am having a 50 amp installed in front of our 3rd garage door. A friend who is a commercial electrician in between main jobs is installing it at a very reasonable price.
Very good.

And while it's pretty hard for an electrician to mess up a 240-volt outlet, for those of you wiring up a dedicated 30-amp RV outlet, please make sure your electrician understands it's a 120-volt outlet, NOT 240 volts. Since a 30-amp RV outlet resembles a 240-volt dryer outlet, at least a few electricians have mis-wired a 30-amp 120-volt RV outlet for 240 volts by mistake, which then destroyed the RV electrical systems in a few seconds.

Let's be careful out there...

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

jmgratz

Original Owners Club Member
When talking about the wiring of RV park pedestals I was in an RV Park last week that had the water outlet attached to the electrical pedestal. The water spicket was above the outlet. After I had everything hooked up I noticed the water was dripping on the 50amp to 30amp adapter. I was able to turn off the electricity and put a wrench on the water faucet tightening it up (not at the hose connection) fixing the leak. How many other campgrounds have the water connection next to the electrical box? Many do. To fix this would take a complete reworking of all pedestals in the entire campground. A costly undertaking.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
When talking about the wiring of RV park pedestals I was in an RV Park last week that had the water outlet attached to the electrical pedestal. The water spicket was above the outlet. After I had everything hooked up I noticed the water was dripping on the 50amp to 30amp adapter. I was able to turn off the electricity and put a wrench on the water faucet tightening it up (not at the hose connection) fixing the leak. How many other campgrounds have the water connection next to the electrical box? Many do. To fix this would take a complete reworking of all pedestals in the entire campground. A costly undertaking.
The primary danger of a water leak near the electrical outlets is contact corrosion. And that's especially problematic with 50-amp RV outlets, where a corroded neutral contact in the outlet can let the 120/120 volt legs swing around to 60/180 or even 20/200 volts on the legs, depending on how unbalanced your loads are. This is even more of an issue in extended hot weather conditions where your air conditioner is running 24/7. You need to have solid, non-corroded connections to ensure proper voltages and safe grounds. I'm doing a little research for a safe and simple contact cleaner RV owners can use on their shore power connections to help keep the corrosion in check.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Geek Alert: If you don't know or care to know about 3-phase power, then skip what follows since it gets a bit deep. But trust me, it's definitely campground related.

What most of you encounter is single phase 120/240 volt power. That's what you've got in your homes and in most campgrounds. And while electricians never call this 2-phase power, indeed it is two opposite phases of 120 volt AC with 180 degrees of phase shift. So as most of you know, grabbing one hot leg (phase) of 120 volts AC plus the other hot leg (phase) of 120 volts AC will add up to 240 volts AC.

However, all industrial buildings run something called 3-phase power, which is done for two simple reasons. You can run the same amount of power over less copper wires, and it makes electric motors really easy to start and run clockwise or counterclockwise, just by reversing any two of the phases. That's because the 3 legs are at 120 degrees of phase shift to each other, and this forms a natural magnetic rotation caused by the 3-phase voltages swinging up an down in perfect synchronization. It's a beautiful thing.

And that same 3-phase power has two main versions, the first one being a Delta transformer (shaped like a triangle on schematics) and the second one being a Wye transformer (shaped like a Y on schematics). However, back in the 60's it was common to see a hybrid version called a high-leg Delta transformer in manufacturing facilities. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta for a tutorial on it. The trick is that in a standard 3-phase Wye distribution panel you'll measure 120 volts from the neutral to any of the 3 hot legs, and 208 volts between any two legs (phases). But in a high-leg Delta panel, any hot-leg will measure 240 volts to any other hot leg, but only two of the hot legs measure 120 volts from the neutral. The third "high-leg", "red-leg", or "wild-leg" measures 208 volts to neutral.

This was originally done to save the cost of an additional transformer at a factory, and since most everything in a factory that draws a lot of power can use 240 volts, it was a reasonable design. However, you had to be careful when hooking us a single-pole circuit breaker for 120-volt office power not to pick the third "high-leg" phase or you would send 208 volts AC to all of your 120 volt wall outlets.

The reason I relate this is that last year while in Texas teaching a sound seminar, my load-in crew came in a little late because they were working on expanding a campground area by wiring in a bunch of new campsites. However, the "electrician" had found the 3-phase high-leg delta panel with only two rows of circuit breakers populated on the 120-volt phases. He just assumed he could plug the new 30-amp 120-volt breakers into those empty spots, which then sent 208 volts AC to all the new campsite's 30-amp 120 volt pedestals. Several campers had just hooked up and were burning up their RV electrical systems because of 208 volts rather than 120 volts on the 30 amp outlets. The campground owner had blamed the RV electrical problems on "lightning", but after they burned up half a dozen RV's, finally got out a meter and figured out why the third "high-leg" phase of that panel had not been used up to this point. That phase only puts out 208 volts. What a mess.

This all could have been avoided if the electrician had simply metered the panel before plugging in a dozen new circuit breakers. And if he knew anything about 3-phase power he should have seen the orange markings on the high-leg phase and been warned.

Interestingly, the latest version of the NFPA 70E (National Electrical Code) will allow campgrounds to run any two phases of 208 volt 3-phase WYE transformer power to campsite outlets normally marked as single-phase 120/240 volt power. I expect a whole lot of wiring mistakes at campgrounds very soon.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 
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