| 1 | 6- 100W Panels 5.4 amp 18V Monocrystaline Hooked-up Parallel | ||||||||||||||
| 2 | 60Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controler Max charge Current 60A | ||||||||||||||
| 3 | 2300W 117 VAC 12VDC 10VDC to !5.5 VDC Hand Wired 2.30 kW contineous Power/4.60kW Peak Power | ||||||||||||||
| 4 | DC 6.5-100V 0-100A LCD Display Digital Current Voltage Power Energy Meter Multimeter Amp Voltmeter w/100Amp Current Shunt | ||||||||||||||
| 5 | Moes Dual Power Controler 50Amp 5500 Watt Automatic Transfer Switch For off grid solar system ATS DC 12V AC 110V | ||||||||||||||
| 6 | 3-UPG UB 121000 12V 100AH AGM SLA Batteries 16.77V 626 AMP 19.83V short Current 6.56 Hooked up Parallel | ||||||||||||||
| Solar for 2016 Heartland Landmark Ashland 50 amp service with residential refrigerator with CSW-TS15-15A Transfer switch and a 1000W inverter. | |||||||||||||||
| Plan to leave the 1000W inverter as is using TS15-15A transfer switch. I think it controls the frige*induction cook top-hot water heater and water pump. | |||||||||||||||
| On the main panel the breaker marked slide controls all the AC plugs in Rear of Cabin The Breaker Marked Bed Controls all the AC plugs in Front | |||||||||||||||
| I would like to control the above with the 2300w inverter. Approx 20 amps Peak 25 amps | |||||||||||||||
| I think the 1000w inverter uses about 17 amps | |||||||||||||||
| I've hooked this system up (both inverters) and it runs about 7 hrs. and shuts down except Frig. The problem seems to me the Moes controler. When the batteries get below 11 Volts it is supposed to switch to grid power. It is not switching and this is the second Moes Unit. Maybe I'm hooking up wrong. The first hook-up is grid power(Moes) the second is out to all plugs third is inverter and 4th is to the batteries. I ran a wire from ac panel to the grid power of T/S I disconnected from the AC Panel the Slide and Bed Breaker and ran a secon wire to the output of Moes T/S | |||||||||||||||
Solar Help
- Thread starter dkeetc1
- Start date
Derald,
I am not sure how it is all set up but the one thing that stands out to me is the cut over voltage of the batteries. 11 volts for the lower cut over voltage seems to be too low. From all I know about AGM batteries is that at 12.25v the batteries are at 50% charge. This is about as low as you want to take these batteries down to if you want to have them last for any length of time. if they get to 11volts that would be fully discharged and that is really bad for those cells. I would have the controller change to shore power at 12.2 - 12.25 volts if it were me. I have installed lithium in my rig for the very reason that they can be discharge to about 20% if needed but I have only seen them below 50% a couple of times.
I am sure there will be others chime in on this. There are several members that have done extensive power builds and posted their results.
Regards,
Steve
I am not sure how it is all set up but the one thing that stands out to me is the cut over voltage of the batteries. 11 volts for the lower cut over voltage seems to be too low. From all I know about AGM batteries is that at 12.25v the batteries are at 50% charge. This is about as low as you want to take these batteries down to if you want to have them last for any length of time. if they get to 11volts that would be fully discharged and that is really bad for those cells. I would have the controller change to shore power at 12.2 - 12.25 volts if it were me. I have installed lithium in my rig for the very reason that they can be discharge to about 20% if needed but I have only seen them below 50% a couple of times.
I am sure there will be others chime in on this. There are several members that have done extensive power builds and posted their results.
Regards,
Steve
taskswap
Well-known member
Couple things. First, why are you paralleling your panels? If you have moderate-light conditions you're going to hit a voltage there that won't charge anything. It's pretty common to serial at least a few, so you have 2x3 or 3x2. I had 2 panels in series on my last rig and was able to get at least some charge til nearly 7pm most days. You might find you're only getting a decent charge for 3-4 hours a day, and not ever filling up your batteries as much as you think they are.
Is that 1000W inverter the stock one? If so I bet it ONLY controls the fridge. I'm hardly an RV manufacturer but every single one I've seen with a preinstalled inverter in that wattage range, it was wired literally to a single fridge circuit. Single to the point of them using a duplex 120V receptacle at the device that only had a single outlet "jack".
In that case it would be helpful to pull the data sheet for your fridge. (If I'm wrong it's still helpful, you just need to add more draws.) A lot of them will actually list the "24h" power draw which is super useful because they cycle on and off, so the instantaneous draws aren't super useful to do calculations against. Here's mine for the Furrion 14 cu. ft. fridge:
This does not count the inverter overhead, you can get that from its data sheet as well. Some are better than others. It might pull more amperage at times, but I know generally I can expect it to consume 1268Wh a day. Super helpful for system sizing. (My solar calculation is 90% three things: I want to run the fridge, the furnace, and some lights while off-gridding.)
I looked at the Moes product description and it seems like it has its behavior, but also depends on the "voltage transfer setpoints". One thing I can say is I've run a lot of AGM batteries into the ground. A 100Ah AGM battery is only good for 50Ah. I've seen them still have good VOLTAGES though, and had battery-level meters be totally useless with them. When AGMs get beat up a beat, you can see 12.3V on one and think it's pretty charged, then turn on a few lights and wham it drops to 11.8V. You don't mention the age of yours and maybe this isn't your cause, but I'm just throwing it out there. Since none of us can "see" your system it's just guessing.
This is totally my unpaid, useless opinion.... but for an RV this Moes setup seems overly complex. I've never heard of/used the product, which doesn't really mean much, but I follow a ton of "smart people" in various forums and Youtube channels (Will Prowse is a good place to start) and have never seen this thing reviewed before. I mean... I hate to be "that guy" but their site also lists a wireless light switch with the tagline "Achieve 3-way control in a more effectice way". Doesn't mean their products are bad but it wouldn't shock me at all if they poorly communicated some important detail in their installation docs. Have you tried contacting them for troubleshooting advice? Sometimes you just plain get a bad unit and it needs to be replaced...
Is that 1000W inverter the stock one? If so I bet it ONLY controls the fridge. I'm hardly an RV manufacturer but every single one I've seen with a preinstalled inverter in that wattage range, it was wired literally to a single fridge circuit. Single to the point of them using a duplex 120V receptacle at the device that only had a single outlet "jack".
In that case it would be helpful to pull the data sheet for your fridge. (If I'm wrong it's still helpful, you just need to add more draws.) A lot of them will actually list the "24h" power draw which is super useful because they cycle on and off, so the instantaneous draws aren't super useful to do calculations against. Here's mine for the Furrion 14 cu. ft. fridge:
This does not count the inverter overhead, you can get that from its data sheet as well. Some are better than others. It might pull more amperage at times, but I know generally I can expect it to consume 1268Wh a day. Super helpful for system sizing. (My solar calculation is 90% three things: I want to run the fridge, the furnace, and some lights while off-gridding.)
I looked at the Moes product description and it seems like it has its behavior, but also depends on the "voltage transfer setpoints". One thing I can say is I've run a lot of AGM batteries into the ground. A 100Ah AGM battery is only good for 50Ah. I've seen them still have good VOLTAGES though, and had battery-level meters be totally useless with them. When AGMs get beat up a beat, you can see 12.3V on one and think it's pretty charged, then turn on a few lights and wham it drops to 11.8V. You don't mention the age of yours and maybe this isn't your cause, but I'm just throwing it out there. Since none of us can "see" your system it's just guessing.
This is totally my unpaid, useless opinion.... but for an RV this Moes setup seems overly complex. I've never heard of/used the product, which doesn't really mean much, but I follow a ton of "smart people" in various forums and Youtube channels (Will Prowse is a good place to start) and have never seen this thing reviewed before. I mean... I hate to be "that guy" but their site also lists a wireless light switch with the tagline "Achieve 3-way control in a more effectice way". Doesn't mean their products are bad but it wouldn't shock me at all if they poorly communicated some important detail in their installation docs. Have you tried contacting them for troubleshooting advice? Sometimes you just plain get a bad unit and it needs to be replaced...
Thanks i will change the switch over to 12.2V from 11V. My batteries are brand new. All of your logic makes since. I noticed some one ran a 2 receptacle plug for the frig and the cooktop is plugged into it. So you would hook up all 6 panel in series. What about the batteries? Do I leave them in parallel?
taskswap
Well-known member
It's a personal decision, but I wouldn't hook them ALL up in series. I'm a fan of the "series parallel hybrid." Renogy has a good discussion on the options here:
uk.renogy.com
They don't mention this, and it's rare anyway, but if you have an entire panel fail a series setup means you have no power. I've read this is possible though I've never heard of anybody who had it happen. The bigger issue is if one panel gets shaded. With a house that should never happen - you design to prevent it. But with an RV that can happen all the time depending on where you park around trees.
So series connections have a pro and a con. The pro is you give your charge controller a higher input voltage, so you have more hours of "charge time" before you drop below its minimum usable threshold. (It also produces half the current for the same output wattage so you can run smaller cables, though I don't know anyone who does that.) The con is partial shading can greatly reduce the output of one leg. That's why I favor hybrid systems on my installations. Currently I'm running 4x 200W panels in a 2x2 setup. I'm planning on adding 2 more panels next year.
About your batteries, this is all depending on your budget, but AGMs also can only produce about half their "rated" power without being damaged. So you can really only safely tap 50Ah out of a 100Ah battery. If you assume you're getting a full charge on them during the day and the system is shutting down because those batteries are "drained" to their safest minimum, then your fridge + 2x inverters are draining 150Ah overnight. That's about 1.8kWh at 12V. That's a little high, my fridge only uses 1.3kWh each day, but it's also designed for RV use and I only have one inverter. But if you have the money to upgrade those batteries, LiFePO4's can give you twice the "usable capacity" over an AGM. Just swapping those could solve your entire problem, it's just super expensive.
I can't say whether they're any good yet, but I'm in the process of swapping my AGM's to Renogy's "Smart" lithium batteries. A big con with others is you can't charge them below freezing. If you're like me and your batteries live in an uninsulated compartment (in my 5th wheel's front storage bay) and you do any cold-weather camping (I do all the time) that's a big con for lithiums. These things have self-heating functions to solve that. (I'm also going to install them in insulated foam boxes.)
Finally, some inverters have huge internal losses. I don't know what brand you have but Will Prowse did a good overview on various inverters here that might let you decide if replacing one or both is worth it:
I'm on the fence about this one for my own system. My inverter is a Magnum CSW1012, which is a rebranded Sensata. It's rated for a no-load draw of 1.2A - I haven't had time to measure to verify this. (Measuring real-world values is very helpful because a lot of ratings are fudged via "optimal conditions" to make them seem more favorable.) Well 1.2A over 24h is just under 30Ah. That's not HUGE but if I have 200Ah of rated capacity that's still 15% of it. Since all of that is "ideal conditions" and conditions are never ideal, my inverter is definitely an important drain in my system. Yours might be much worse. Look for this value on the data sheets for both of them. If Lithium batteries aren't in your future, maybe your budget would allow replacing the two inverters you have with a single, larger one that can run everything you need? If so you can buy something with a lower internal loss and maybe fix your problem in a single change...
Series vs Parallel Connections Explained | Renogy Solar
This page will go into more depth on series, parallel and series-parallel connections. The purpose of this section is to explain why certain connections are utilized, how to set up to your desired connection, as well as going over what is the most beneficial connection to utilize based on your...
uk.renogy.com
They don't mention this, and it's rare anyway, but if you have an entire panel fail a series setup means you have no power. I've read this is possible though I've never heard of anybody who had it happen. The bigger issue is if one panel gets shaded. With a house that should never happen - you design to prevent it. But with an RV that can happen all the time depending on where you park around trees.
So series connections have a pro and a con. The pro is you give your charge controller a higher input voltage, so you have more hours of "charge time" before you drop below its minimum usable threshold. (It also produces half the current for the same output wattage so you can run smaller cables, though I don't know anyone who does that.) The con is partial shading can greatly reduce the output of one leg. That's why I favor hybrid systems on my installations. Currently I'm running 4x 200W panels in a 2x2 setup. I'm planning on adding 2 more panels next year.
About your batteries, this is all depending on your budget, but AGMs also can only produce about half their "rated" power without being damaged. So you can really only safely tap 50Ah out of a 100Ah battery. If you assume you're getting a full charge on them during the day and the system is shutting down because those batteries are "drained" to their safest minimum, then your fridge + 2x inverters are draining 150Ah overnight. That's about 1.8kWh at 12V. That's a little high, my fridge only uses 1.3kWh each day, but it's also designed for RV use and I only have one inverter. But if you have the money to upgrade those batteries, LiFePO4's can give you twice the "usable capacity" over an AGM. Just swapping those could solve your entire problem, it's just super expensive.
I can't say whether they're any good yet, but I'm in the process of swapping my AGM's to Renogy's "Smart" lithium batteries. A big con with others is you can't charge them below freezing. If you're like me and your batteries live in an uninsulated compartment (in my 5th wheel's front storage bay) and you do any cold-weather camping (I do all the time) that's a big con for lithiums. These things have self-heating functions to solve that. (I'm also going to install them in insulated foam boxes.)
Finally, some inverters have huge internal losses. I don't know what brand you have but Will Prowse did a good overview on various inverters here that might let you decide if replacing one or both is worth it:
I'm on the fence about this one for my own system. My inverter is a Magnum CSW1012, which is a rebranded Sensata. It's rated for a no-load draw of 1.2A - I haven't had time to measure to verify this. (Measuring real-world values is very helpful because a lot of ratings are fudged via "optimal conditions" to make them seem more favorable.) Well 1.2A over 24h is just under 30Ah. That's not HUGE but if I have 200Ah of rated capacity that's still 15% of it. Since all of that is "ideal conditions" and conditions are never ideal, my inverter is definitely an important drain in my system. Yours might be much worse. Look for this value on the data sheets for both of them. If Lithium batteries aren't in your future, maybe your budget would allow replacing the two inverters you have with a single, larger one that can run everything you need? If so you can buy something with a lower internal loss and maybe fix your problem in a single change...
Just my experience but the solar panels are best in a series/parallel combination. The reasons have been listed above but if they are all done in series then the wire gauge running from the roof to the charge controller would need to be very large to compensator for the voltage drop. This drop can rob the system really quick. As for the batteries if the AGM batteries are 12 volts then the batteries need to stay connected in parallel. AGM batteries need a long time to recharge once they get to 80%. It is rarely a big thing that makes these solar systems not work well but several little things that steal the efficiency. I know this from experience and having to redo thing.
taskswap
Well-known member
Good points. IMO a 2x2 or 3x2 setup is one of the best options for most cases.
If anybody wants to calculate their voltage drop there's a good tool here:
unboundsolar.com
Make sure you select your correct wire type. A lot of cheap cables are "CCA" (copper clad aluminum) and will have twice the drop. Again, not a professional installer, but I'm personally NOT a fan of CCA. IMO the only advantage is weight and cost savings, and for cables in an RV neither is a good decision driver.
If anybody wants to calculate their voltage drop there's a good tool here:
Voltage Drop Calculator For Solar Electric Systems
Use this voltage drop calculator to help determine proper wire size for an electrical circuit based on voltage drop and current carrying capacity.
unboundsolar.com
Make sure you select your correct wire type. A lot of cheap cables are "CCA" (copper clad aluminum) and will have twice the drop. Again, not a professional installer, but I'm personally NOT a fan of CCA. IMO the only advantage is weight and cost savings, and for cables in an RV neither is a good decision driver.
taskswap
Well-known member
It's not that simple. You didn't say what charge controller you have but they all have different ratings for maximum input voltage. 6 x 18V max is 108V max - your charge controller would need to be rated for this. (Mine is rated for 100V so that would be too much for it.)
Also do the calculation on your cable loss / voltage drop. The rule of thumb in the solar industry is "no more than 2%" total drop. By way of comparison, my panels are rated 27V max at 9.66A. (Those are "ideal world" numbers you'll never see in real life but let's go with it for now.) My wiring is 10AWG copper, about 25' long. If I have two panels in series the voltage drop calculator says that's 1.33% - a little high but not bad. More panels in series actually improves the percentage. A third panel gives me 81V and the drop becomes 0.89%. But I can't do a fourth, it would exceed my charger's rating.
Up to a point, series connections can let your charge controller squeeze out a bit more charge in the morning/evening or winter. Controllers need a minimum input voltage before they can charge a battery. Check your data sheet for yours, mine was 5V. If your battery is at 12V and your panels are at 11V, your batteries won't charge even though you have "some" output from the panels. Two 11V panels in parallel still won't charge your battery... but a series pair of panels that now produces 22V will.
There's a pretty good writeup comparing all the "numbers" of series vs. parallel wiring here:
www.explorist.life
Just bear in mind that panel shading or failure can take out a whole series "string" even if the other panels are good. That, plus my system's ratings, are why I do series/parallel setups on my campers.
Also do the calculation on your cable loss / voltage drop. The rule of thumb in the solar industry is "no more than 2%" total drop. By way of comparison, my panels are rated 27V max at 9.66A. (Those are "ideal world" numbers you'll never see in real life but let's go with it for now.) My wiring is 10AWG copper, about 25' long. If I have two panels in series the voltage drop calculator says that's 1.33% - a little high but not bad. More panels in series actually improves the percentage. A third panel gives me 81V and the drop becomes 0.89%. But I can't do a fourth, it would exceed my charger's rating.
Up to a point, series connections can let your charge controller squeeze out a bit more charge in the morning/evening or winter. Controllers need a minimum input voltage before they can charge a battery. Check your data sheet for yours, mine was 5V. If your battery is at 12V and your panels are at 11V, your batteries won't charge even though you have "some" output from the panels. Two 11V panels in parallel still won't charge your battery... but a series pair of panels that now produces 22V will.
There's a pretty good writeup comparing all the "numbers" of series vs. parallel wiring here:
Camper Solar Panels - Series vs Parallel
Series vs Parallel: The great debate. Well... not really a debate as there is a clear choice for 90% of builds:
www.explorist.life
Just bear in mind that panel shading or failure can take out a whole series "string" even if the other panels are good. That, plus my system's ratings, are why I do series/parallel setups on my campers.
so if I read you correctly you would hook up 3 panels in series and 3 in parallel. My main goal is when I'm paying electricity in a park I want to use solar as much as possible. For example we will be staying 5 months in Mission Texas where my average electric bill is $150 per month. I would like to cut it to $50 per month. the average temp is about 75 degrees for that time period.. Is that possible in your opinion? No shade pretty sunny. I changed my automatic transfer switch (MOES) from 11V to 12.5V(switches back to grid power if it fall below 12.5v an switches back to solar @13v
Derald,
Cutting the electric bill by 2/3's is a pretty tall order to fill but it is possible. This being said you will need to do some math and little investagating. You first need to know what the total load per day your system uses. Then doing some test to see how much you can charge in a single day. You cannot use the manufactures data for these values since they always rate their systems to work in perfect settings. This never happens. Your weakest link is going to be the batteries. You have 3 100AH batteries which in a perfect world have 150 AH total usable power. To keep AGM batteries from failing early 50% discharge is all you should do. These batteries also take a long time to recharge to 100% each day. So after you know how much power you use then we could help figure out the rest. I think you should get close. If you PM me I can provide you a phone number then we can chat.
Steve
Cutting the electric bill by 2/3's is a pretty tall order to fill but it is possible. This being said you will need to do some math and little investagating. You first need to know what the total load per day your system uses. Then doing some test to see how much you can charge in a single day. You cannot use the manufactures data for these values since they always rate their systems to work in perfect settings. This never happens. Your weakest link is going to be the batteries. You have 3 100AH batteries which in a perfect world have 150 AH total usable power. To keep AGM batteries from failing early 50% discharge is all you should do. These batteries also take a long time to recharge to 100% each day. So after you know how much power you use then we could help figure out the rest. I think you should get close. If you PM me I can provide you a phone number then we can chat.
Steve
817-914.0252 Derald Keetch dkeetc1@hotmail.com
After Watching videos it appears to me that wiring 3 panels in series and the other 3 panels in series and connecting them in parallel would give me 60 volts at 10 amps vs 120 volts at 5 amps if all in series
