Bones
Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
At least now you know where to tackle the issue. Good luck.
SOLVED: AC Power Issue with Power Control System
- Thread starter jbeletti
- Start date
wdk450
Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
Jim:
If you remember some older posts by me on an intermittent water heater circuit breaker trip, I finally found that the problem was the stripped portions of the hot and neutral touching inside the water heater AC connection box. The installer stripped the outer insulation too closely to have enough wire conductor to make properly spaced wirenut connections, along with the stripped portion of the conductor wires was longer than the wirenuts covered, so the wires eventually started touching. Maybe the same guy is still installing these; or if there are detailed installer instructions on how long to strip the outer cable insulation and the inner conductor insulation, these instructions are not being followed.
Jim:
If you remember some older posts by me on an intermittent water heater circuit breaker trip, I finally found that the problem was the stripped portions of the hot and neutral touching inside the water heater AC connection box. The installer stripped the outer insulation too closely to have enough wire conductor to make properly spaced wirenut connections, along with the stripped portion of the conductor wires was longer than the wirenuts covered, so the wires eventually started touching. Maybe the same guy is still installing these; or if there are detailed installer instructions on how long to strip the outer cable insulation and the inner conductor insulation, these instructions are not being followed.
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
I do remember Bill. I will be following up with Heartland when I am done with the repair. They will receive the failure analysis from me in detail, with pictures etc.
I do remember Bill. I will be following up with Heartland when I am done with the repair. They will receive the failure analysis from me in detail, with pictures etc.
NWILSON
Kentucky Chapter Leaders - retired
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
Keep calm and eat BarBQ!Went out to dinner and a movie tonight and the coach was still alive when we got back
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
Update for 22-Oct @ 7:40 AM
Yesterday, my theory was proven correct as to why there was a dead short on the WH (water heater) AC branch circuit.
I removed the metal cover plate from the metal junction box on the side of the WH and immediately saw some scorching.
The hot (black) lead had indeed shorted to the case. The wire nut had melted and sort of fell off, yet, the solid lead from the Romex and the stranded lead from the WH seemed to both be inside the wire nut. In fact, the solid lead was still held by the wire nut spring, all the way to what was the tip of the wire nut.
I can only surmise that the stranded lead, while still in the wire nut, wasn't really being held to the solid lead by the wire nut spring. I know from experience, it's not possible to twist a solid conductor and a stranded conductor too effectively. My guess is that the stranded conductor, while wrapped around the solid conductor, slid down as the pair was put into the wire nut, such that the wire nut spring captured only the solid conductor.
Then, nearly 8 months of usage, the current draw on that splice took it's toll in heat from increased current draw, melted the wire nut housing and eventually allowed the spring to short against the splice junction box.
In my repair, I used a yellow heat shrinkable butt splice. I knew that with a high-leverage crimper, I could get a good hold on both a solid lead in one end and a stranded lead in the other. Plus, having to cut both leads back to restrip them left me some short leads in a really tight spot to get back into and get a wire nut on. Really need two hands for that and this was mostly a one-handed repair operation.
Later today, I will replace the control board for the PCS (power control system) and I hope this completely clears the issue I'm having with that system - apparently caused by this dead short circuit.
Update for 22-Oct @ 7:40 AM
Yesterday, my theory was proven correct as to why there was a dead short on the WH (water heater) AC branch circuit.
I removed the metal cover plate from the metal junction box on the side of the WH and immediately saw some scorching.
The hot (black) lead had indeed shorted to the case. The wire nut had melted and sort of fell off, yet, the solid lead from the Romex and the stranded lead from the WH seemed to both be inside the wire nut. In fact, the solid lead was still held by the wire nut spring, all the way to what was the tip of the wire nut.
I can only surmise that the stranded lead, while still in the wire nut, wasn't really being held to the solid lead by the wire nut spring. I know from experience, it's not possible to twist a solid conductor and a stranded conductor too effectively. My guess is that the stranded conductor, while wrapped around the solid conductor, slid down as the pair was put into the wire nut, such that the wire nut spring captured only the solid conductor.
Then, nearly 8 months of usage, the current draw on that splice took it's toll in heat from increased current draw, melted the wire nut housing and eventually allowed the spring to short against the splice junction box.
In my repair, I used a yellow heat shrinkable butt splice. I knew that with a high-leverage crimper, I could get a good hold on both a solid lead in one end and a stranded lead in the other. Plus, having to cut both leads back to restrip them left me some short leads in a really tight spot to get back into and get a wire nut on. Really need two hands for that and this was mostly a one-handed repair operation.
Later today, I will replace the control board for the PCS (power control system) and I hope this completely clears the issue I'm having with that system - apparently caused by this dead short circuit.
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
For sure Jim. This was done yesterday in more detail and with pictures.
For sure Jim. This was done yesterday in more detail and with pictures.
JohnD
Moved on to the next thing...
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
This and many other electrical and other wire connections.
I was amazed at how many connections that I had to tighten in our new 2015 Heartland Prowler . . .
And I wonder about all of the other ones I can't see or reach!
This and many other electrical and other wire connections.
I was amazed at how many connections that I had to tighten in our new 2015 Heartland Prowler . . .
And I wonder about all of the other ones I can't see or reach!
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Lou_and_Bette
Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
Glad the mystery of both breaks popping is solved
Glad the mystery of both breaks popping is solved
Re: Having an AC Power Issue
Roger that! Thanks for the help the other day my friend, both with this issue and wiring my rear cap flat-four receptacle for external tail lights with carrying the bikes.
Roger that! Thanks for the help the other day my friend, both with this issue and wiring my rear cap flat-four receptacle for external tail lights with carrying the bikes.
Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn
Well-known member
Re: Having an AC Power Issue with Power Control System
Jim, are your bikes blocking your lights or are you just adding some more ?
Let me know where you tied into. I think I'm going to refab my bar from the hitch to the rack, putting 2 bends in it raising the bikes about 4" and adding the lights and lighted license plate holder.
I'll just add a 4 way light plug at the hitch.
Sent from Jerrod's phone with Tapatalk
Jim, are your bikes blocking your lights or are you just adding some more ?
Let me know where you tied into. I think I'm going to refab my bar from the hitch to the rack, putting 2 bends in it raising the bikes about 4" and adding the lights and lighted license plate holder.
I'll just add a 4 way light plug at the hitch.
Sent from Jerrod's phone with Tapatalk
Re: Having an AC Power Issue with Power Control System
Jerrod - I'll detail this more in my Mods thread when complete. My bikes are longer than most and they come to the inner edge of the tail lights. Once we cover the bikes, it will start to cover the lights. I want to be safer.
Lou Dick and I (and other helpers) removed all 4 tail lights, used a DC test light and a connected truck to confirm wiring, then fished wiring from the tail lights down to the underbelly and across to the center point and brought the lines out there (bottom center of rear cap area - in underbelly). I will add the receptacle and bracket on while I am home this round.
Jerrod - I'll detail this more in my Mods thread when complete. My bikes are longer than most and they come to the inner edge of the tail lights. Once we cover the bikes, it will start to cover the lights. I want to be safer.
Lou Dick and I (and other helpers) removed all 4 tail lights, used a DC test light and a connected truck to confirm wiring, then fished wiring from the tail lights down to the underbelly and across to the center point and brought the lines out there (bottom center of rear cap area - in underbelly). I will add the receptacle and bracket on while I am home this round.
This issue has been resolved.
Cause and Effect
There was a short in the AC branch circuit feeding the AC portion of the water heater. For reasons uncertain (likely poor connection allowing a huge current load to pass and warm the wire nut), the wire nut melted on the hot line and allowed the hot to short against the metal junction box. The working theory is this in some way caused a fault in the PCS (power control system). The current sensing circuit was affected and this allowed the PCS to believe I was seeing 100+ amp loads on any of the 7 controllable loads when in fact, those loads were measure separately as being within spec.
Repairs
Cause and Effect
There was a short in the AC branch circuit feeding the AC portion of the water heater. For reasons uncertain (likely poor connection allowing a huge current load to pass and warm the wire nut), the wire nut melted on the hot line and allowed the hot to short against the metal junction box. The working theory is this in some way caused a fault in the PCS (power control system). The current sensing circuit was affected and this allowed the PCS to believe I was seeing 100+ amp loads on any of the 7 controllable loads when in fact, those loads were measure separately as being within spec.
Repairs
- I first cleared the short circuit by remaking the AC power connections in the water heater electrical junction box. I used yellow heat-shrinkable butt splices to bond the two conductor types (solid and stranded)
- I replaced the PCS control board
- It's difficult to make a good electrical bond between a solid conductor and a stranded conductor using wire nuts
- I learned an awful lot about how the PCS works and how to work on the system
- A slow flashing red light on the PCS control board (a sort of heart beat) means the board is operating and a fast flashing red light indicates a fault (note that mine was a slow flash and part of the board was inop)
- Precision Circuits and the owner George are great to work with and George answers the phone and will take calls from retail customer
- Precision Circuits ships the same day they get a PO (from Heartland in my case)
travelin2
Pennsylvania Chapter Leaders-retired
! Well that issue is resolved. We kind of had it narrowed down to those two items (WH & PCS) just didn't understand all we were seeing. It was definitely a lesson for me as it relates to the PCS system. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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! Well that issue is resolved. We kind of had it narrowed down to those two items (WH & PCS) just didn't understand all we were seeing. It was definitely a lesson for me as it relates to the PCS system.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
We did Lyle! Thank you too for being there and assisting in the diagnosing. Sure was a head scratcher for all of us. It came to me the other day that the potential location of a dead short could be in that metal junction box as I'd recalled reading about this happing maybe two or three times on the forum over the years. I was so happy to find that right away when I tore into it yesterday.
I learned a lot about the PCS and I'm feedind my learnings to Dan Mayer who is writing a User Guide for it. He hopes to get that out earlier next year.
So far - in over a thousand installs of the PCS, I haven't read about many issues. I think the biggest issue could be, what is it, what do I need to know about it...
