Traveling with LP tanks open - The debate, the risks...

[jbeletti]

Like many, for my convenience, I travel with my LP tanks (at least 1) in the open position in order to power my refer. For me, on long days (400-600 miles), my refer warms up to the 50s if I am not cooling it. Not good.

Of course, the risk is a fire hazard should you have a propane leak and that leak finds an ignition source, resulting in a fire at a minimum.

That all acknowledged, I am adding an article from today's RVDailyReport.com industry news site about a fire that just occurred with an RV.

RV Daily Report link

Grand Haven Tribune link

Fire destroys RV on Van Wagoner Road


Sat, Jun 12, 2010

SPRING LAKE TOWNSHIP — Nobody was injured when a recreational vehicle was destroyed by fire early Friday on VanWagoner Road just west of U.S. 31.
Spring Lake Township firefighters found the vehicle fully ablaze when they arrived on the scene early in the afternoon.


Fire Chief Rick Nuvill said crews spent a little more than an hour battling the fire, which apparently began after the driver of the RV pulled off U.S. 31 shortly after noticing smoke coming from the vehicle.


"It appears that they had an LP (liquid propane) gas leak in it," Nuvill said.
He said that the leak looks to be the likely cause of the fire, and the owner of the RV had noticed a problem with the LP gas line a week ago, but couldn't find the source of the problem.


Nuvill said the RV was a total loss.



WZZM-TV contributed to this story.

 

[cookie]

I am a bit confused here. I always thought that if I had a problem I was supposed to fix it. He said he had a problem with the LP line a week ago but couldn't find the problem.
Maybe the new thought process is, if I ignore the problem it will fix itself. Or maybe the RV owner just didn't know that LP was flammable.
Just my thoughts.

Peace
Dave

 

[newbie]

Yea, I agree. That's like saying I noticed my car leaking gasoline a week ago but couldn't figure out where the gas was coming from. A week later my car burst into flames. Who woulda thought?

John

 

[JohnDar]

Unfortunately, there is no information concerning the age, make or model of the RV. The age of the unit, and possible dry rot of the rubber propane lines, may have contributed. Or loose fittings that never got checked over the life of the unit. If you add periodic checks of your gas lines and fittings to your preventative maintenance schedule, you should be OK.

 

[Larryheadhunter]

I won't be traveling until Buellton in October, but I have towed for 21,000 miles since Feb 2008, mostly forward, lol, and I am with JimBo, that I always leave at least one of the propane tanks open to keep the fridge cold. In fact, everyone I have spoken to on the subject does that to preserve the food in the fridge. Anyone with any ideas on how to get a warning of a propane leak while pulling, please let us know. That guy who had the fire number was up, as far as that rig was concerned. I bet his insurance helped him pick up a nice new fifth wheel.

 

[kakampers]

Been RVing for close to thirty years...have always left the propane on, and never an issue....even though a fridge fire is my biggest fear. We installed a fire suppression system in the back of the fridge, which we purchased from Mac the Fire Guy...if a fire's gonna start, that's most likely where it will be, at least in towables. Motorhomes are a different story...

 

[noobee]

I always travel with the propane off... fridge seems to seal properly so we have never had a problem with food on travel days.

CS

 

[Duramax1]

While that owner happened to be travelling when the fire occurred, the fire could just as easily have occurred when the unit was stationery in an RV park.

With respect Jim, I think that your thread title is misleading.

 

[wdk450]

I am a bit confused here. I always thought that if I had a problem I was supposed to fix it. He said he had a problem with the LP line a week ago but couldn't find the problem.
Maybe the new thought process is, if I ignore the problem it will fix itself. Or maybe the RV owner just didn't know that LP was flammable.
Just my thoughts.

Peace
Dave

Dave:
We had what we thought was a propane odor in the kitchen area when we were early in our warranty period. The service guy from our dealer came to our storage site for this problem BUT FORGOT TO BRING HIS TEST EQUIPMENT (except bubble juice). The bubble test in the tank area was negative, and then HE TRIED TO CONVINCE US THAT THE SMELL WAS NOT PROPANE!
Well after this "professional" signed off on our problem, and we kept smelling gas, I finally bought an inexpensive tank pressure gauge and did a leakdown test. Sure enough, there was a leak in the system. I took the trailer to an independent RV repairer, he spent about 4 hours on the problem, and eventually found a leaking right angle brass fitting underneath the kitchen slide. I paid for this repair on my own dime.
I don't know what might have happened if I had accepted this "RV Professional Servicer's" opinon, not backed up by comprehensive test data.

BTW, every new RV owner should demand to SEE a propane leakdown test done as part of the PDI.

 

[superduty08]

I never leave a propane tank open for the frig. My job has always had a safety policy that would not even allow the regulator to be connected to a tank when towing propane powered power units. I know most of my friends tow with the propane on and have not had a problem. I ask if they turned off the gas before pulling up to fuel pumps and they had not thought about that. An open flame in the frig could really cause a problem there. I figure if a leak were to happen in a propane line it would more than likely be while bouncing down the road. I use an invertor powered from the batteries to provide ac to the frig when on long trips. Just my 2 cents.

 

[boatdoc]

We do not leave the propane on when traveling BUT we are in the PNW where it is mild most of the time. We have run 10 hour days and the icecream is still hard upon arrival.

 

[jbeletti]

While that owner happened to be travelling when the fire occurred, the fire could just as easily have occurred when the unit was stationery in an RV park.

With respect Jim, I think that your thread title is misleading.

Point taken. What is a better thread title?

Jim

 

[TXBobcat]

I think the title is appropriate. I believe he is wanting to promote a discussion about leaving the propane on or should it be turned off.

As I have always suggested, it is best to be safe than sorry. I turn the propane off while traveling. I took the advice of Mac the fire guy after I attended his class at Life On Wheels in 2006. I also agree that my refrigerator seals enough to keep everything cool enough as well as the 5.0 cu freezer.

I believe I would rather my ice cream melt, and other things get warm than take a chance of causing a fire in an accident or whatever and maybe even get someone injured or burned because I was worried about my milk or beer getting warm. If you have a problem with it get a cooler and ice if your on the road for a long time without AC.

This has always been my view and why I turn off my propane. Whatever anyone else does is up to them, they are responsible for their actions as I am mine.

BC

 

[jbeletti]

On a related note, Mac the Fire Guy will be presenting at the Nashville rally.

 

[wdk450]

Jim:
Being as knowlegeable as you are about RV's, I am sure you know about an alternative way to travel with your refrigerator on and not have the propane on. This would involve the use of a 12 Volt DC to 110 Volt AC inverter, wired into a seperate (or switched) outlet supplying the refrigerator. I belive the refrigerator heating element pulls 8-10 amps at 110 volts which would translate into a constant 80-100 amps into the 1000 watt inverter. Keeping your batteries at full charge under such a load would require a large guage charging wiring circuit capable of delivering 100 amps continuously from your tow vehicle's alternator (hopefully it is 130 amp or more) to the trailer's battery. The cable needs to have overcurrent protection (circuit breakers) at both ends in case of wiring short circuits. Such a continuous load on your alternator can seriously reduce its working life. Higher capacity replacement alternators can cost $500 or more.
Question: Is there a propane cutoff sensor/solonoid system that could cutoff the master propane supply when the sensor mounted in the refrigerator boiler area detects a fire? This would be like the fire sensor built into household whole house fans that shuts them off in event of fire.

 

[Duramax1]

Point taken. What is a better thread title?

Jim

"Never ignore a propane smell"

As an aside, it is a good thing that the fire occured beside the road where the damage was restricted to the trailer. Had the trailer been in a crowded RV park or in a very dry forest area when the fire occured, the consequential potential damage to other property could have been very serious.

 

[Willym]

Jim:
Being as knowlegeable as you are about RV's, I am sure you know about an alternative way to travel with your refrigerator on and not have the propane on. This would involve the use of a 12 Volt DC to 110 Volt AC inverter, wired into a seperate (or switched) outlet supplying the refrigerator. I belive the refrigerator heating element pulls 8-10 amps at 110 volts which would translate into a constant 80-100 amps into the 1000 watt inverter. Keeping your batteries at full charge under such a load would require a large guage charging wiring circuit capable of delivering 100 amps continuously from your tow vehicle's alternator (hopefully it is 130 amp or more) to the trailer's battery. The cable needs to have overcurrent protection (circuit breakers) at both ends in case of wiring short circuits. Such a continuous load on your alternator can seriously reduce its working life. Higher capacity replacement alternators can cost $500 or more.
Question: Is there a propane cutoff sensor/solonoid system that could cutoff the master propane supply when the sensor mounted in the refrigerator boiler area detects a fire? This would be like the fire sensor built into household whole house fans that shuts them off in event of fire.

According to my Dometic info, the fridge only draws about 3 amperes. This is equivalent to about 30 amps on the 12 volt side of an inverter, say 35 to cover inefficiencies. A 1000w inverter will cover this quite easily. However, the cable from your TV to the trailer usually has insufficient capacity for this level of current, and an upgrade in conductor size would likely be needed. Most modern HD trucks could easily handle the extra 35 amp draw in terms of their alternator capability.

Dometic also recommends that one shuts down the fridge when fuelling. However, I don't know why they haven't installed a simple flame arrestor around the burner to minimize the risk of explosion - perhaps it's because the risk is really quite small.

 

[branson4020]

When there is a noticeable propane leak, especially one you can smell in the coach, shouldn't the propane detector be beeping like mad?

 

[JohnDar]

Not necessarily. The detector is set to go off somewhere around 1.25% propane in air, which is below the lower explosive limit (5%). Your ability to detect the mercaptan odorant is well below that, unless you have a problem with your sense of smell. Some people can't smell it or have become desensitized to certain odors.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Great discussion. Here is some food for thought.

For those with a toy hauler: How about your fuel line from the fueling station to the generator? Should we install a valve in the line and drain the line every time we transport? (I'm just making a point, no need to respond)

Gas pressure in the LP system will remain until a leak is formed (assuming your equipment runs correctly). Something hitting a pipe could cause a spark and ignite the gas as it escapes through the leak.

You could get a leak in your TV fuel lines that could ignite.

Switching to the alternative inverter option you could have a failed inverter overheat and start a fire. Or, draining the battery excessively resulting in fire/explosion.

You could get a short in the 12 V system while towing resulting in fire.

Heck, even your LP tank OPD could fail.

My point is that there are an infinite number of possibilities that could result in disaster towing or not. The likely hood of any of these events occurring depend on the owners maintenance and luck. I personally think that you're more likely to have an issue while parked running more electrical loads and equipment, but I can see the point to shut the valves on the LP system.