Underbelly Overhaul
- Thread starter adam
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readytohitheroad
Well-known member
I am always a bit amazed at the accepting attitude of RV owners when it comes to the lack of quality control in these rigs. The first several points in this original post are clear examples of extremely poor workmanship on the part of the Heartland staff that built this rig. It should be highly embarrassing to the company but it is not for some unknown reason. I tend to think this is because Heartland realizes that owners will continue to put up with this lack of craftsmenship, for if they did not they would quickly fix the issue. The most common excuse we read is that we have to expect this because our rigs are constantly being towed around the country but this does not explain the issues originally mentioned in this post. So my question is: Why is Heartland not doing a better job of improving their quality control? I would love to purchase one of these units but am afraid to spend $90-$100,000 on something that may be a rolling nightmare. Am not doing any bashing here gang just expressing my views.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
I love my rig. There is a concentration of complaints on this forum because it is the nature of the forum to discuss issues, there are a lot of rigs with no issues at all such as mine. Its near perfect. I do agree though that some things are just bizarre that it is not engineered properly. Such as the frameless windows. But it is not Heartland that has designed the window but it is heartland that used the product in the manufacture. My rig has never been back for warranty service, what few things I have found wrong I corrected myself. But what the OP found under his rig while doing maintenance, is consistent with what others have found behind the basement walls. Wire, wire nuts, wire insulation, pocket trash, shipping labels and all manner of construction junk. I dont think you will find anything different from other manufacturers.
Among the issues you will find when discussing quality of Heartlands, is the cheap tires, this is also an industry problem, but heartland offers the tire upgrade which really in effect puts the onus of tire selection on the buyer regardless of what we think about the tires. I think a study of the different fiver manufacturers you will find that the Heartland product are superior in their market.
While I see your point, the question is natural, if they can't pay attention to the details like taping wire nuts or sweeping up construction materials then what other items are they neglecting? But notwithstanding that, most of the failures are with the components provided by the same suppliers that supply other manufacturers. So I think that the only way you can judge a heartland rig is by looking at them in person.
Among the issues you will find when discussing quality of Heartlands, is the cheap tires, this is also an industry problem, but heartland offers the tire upgrade which really in effect puts the onus of tire selection on the buyer regardless of what we think about the tires. I think a study of the different fiver manufacturers you will find that the Heartland product are superior in their market.
While I see your point, the question is natural, if they can't pay attention to the details like taping wire nuts or sweeping up construction materials then what other items are they neglecting? But notwithstanding that, most of the failures are with the components provided by the same suppliers that supply other manufacturers. So I think that the only way you can judge a heartland rig is by looking at them in person.
TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
If you get a chance to go to an RV show and look at a variety of models in the same class, you'll actually find HL does better than most. Just this weekend we were at the Dallas RV show. I only saw two other brands that had better-looking quality construction. And they were 20k higher in price. There wasn't any other brand that I liked the decors better, or wood color, or exterior graphics/paint. At least with HL, you also have this great forum to help you fix things and keep issues to a minimum.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2psnapod2
Texas-South Chapter Leaders-Retired
Most of these units are not anywhere close to the 90-100K. But if you really would like to pay that, I am sure they could really do better in the quality control area. Most buyers want the most bang for their buck, and that requires the manufactures to produce these in large numbers quickly. This is why NO company will ever produce a completely without issue RV for the money we spend.
Heartland is trying to be competitive in a very close margin business. Normal consumers (my opinion anyhow) will walk away from a unit which costs 5-10k more with no visual difference. A vast majority of purchasers are not as well educated or as aware during their purchase as most of our forum goers. I'd expect that very few owners actually frequent\visit these forums. Would be interesting to know those real stats but I digress. As with any competitive market they supplement price points with volume. If you go on a factory tour you will find that the workers which man each station are not paid hourly or salaried. They are paid like every other assembly line in units completed. They have a 10 unit per day quota. They don't finish the day until those 10 are completed. There were 7 or 8 stations per factory line. There looked like maybe a buffer of 1 unit per station so the front of the line can't finish faster than the movement of units down the entire line. This causes the later stations to "rush" so that the earlier stations are not held up (thus keeping people from going home).
Now these stations as of the 2014 model yard lines each have a QC check which the station lead has to initial\sign off on 13 or 14 items per station. So the entire system is setup not to reward quality and craftsmanship but is setup to reward quantity. They have QC checks put in place as the balance, but it's my opinion that if you are not rewarding individual craftsman for their investment in craftsmanship (aka pay hourly or salaried) you're not going to get that same quality. That being said that master craftsman will produce maybe at best 1 unit per day where the heartland line does 10. Now I am sure you could find an RV manufacturer which prides themselves on craftsmanship but you're going to pay at least double for the same unit. 100K sounds like a lot, but vehicles these days are costing 62 to 63K if not more (look at a new dwr 1 ton). And that doesn't have any appliances or heating or other attributes.
I guess what I am saying is that while I agree that most of the issues brought up on the forums should not have made it past the lead QC check, heartland and other manufacturers are not setting an environment to reward it. I am not willing to pay 200k for a quality built RV so yes I am settling just a bit on a 50k 42 foot house on wheels understanding that I will have to fix some of that myself. I had to remind my wife that her new car she purchased cost 10k more than our house on wheels so we can invest a bit into repairs.
Any way I hope this post might help shed some light on the supposed craftsmanship issues and help put into perspective a bit on my opinion for why I am ok and actually pleased with the quality of my unit.
Now these stations as of the 2014 model yard lines each have a QC check which the station lead has to initial\sign off on 13 or 14 items per station. So the entire system is setup not to reward quality and craftsmanship but is setup to reward quantity. They have QC checks put in place as the balance, but it's my opinion that if you are not rewarding individual craftsman for their investment in craftsmanship (aka pay hourly or salaried) you're not going to get that same quality. That being said that master craftsman will produce maybe at best 1 unit per day where the heartland line does 10. Now I am sure you could find an RV manufacturer which prides themselves on craftsmanship but you're going to pay at least double for the same unit. 100K sounds like a lot, but vehicles these days are costing 62 to 63K if not more (look at a new dwr 1 ton). And that doesn't have any appliances or heating or other attributes.
I guess what I am saying is that while I agree that most of the issues brought up on the forums should not have made it past the lead QC check, heartland and other manufacturers are not setting an environment to reward it. I am not willing to pay 200k for a quality built RV so yes I am settling just a bit on a 50k 42 foot house on wheels understanding that I will have to fix some of that myself. I had to remind my wife that her new car she purchased cost 10k more than our house on wheels so we can invest a bit into repairs.
Any way I hope this post might help shed some light on the supposed craftsmanship issues and help put into perspective a bit on my opinion for why I am ok and actually pleased with the quality of my unit.
For20hunter
Pacific Region Directors-Retired
Very well put Jeromy!!
Rod
Rod
Heartland is trying to be competitive in a very close margin business. Normal consumers (my opinion anyhow) will walk away from a unit which costs 5-10k more with no visual difference. A vast majority of purchasers are not as well educated or as aware during their purchase as most of our forum goers. I'd expect that very few owners actually frequent\visit these forums. Would be interesting to know those real stats but I digress. As with any competitive market they supplement price points with volume. If you go on a factory tour you will find that the workers which man each station are not paid hourly or salaried. They are paid like every other assembly line in units completed. They have a 10 unit per day quota. They don't finish the day until those 10 are completed. There were 7 or 8 stations per factory line. There looked like maybe a buffer of 1 unit per station so the front of the line can't finish faster than the movement of units down the entire line. This causes the later stations to "rush" so that the earlier stations are not held up (thus keeping people from going home).
Now these stations as of the 2014 model yard lines each have a QC check which the station lead has to initial\sign off on 13 or 14 items per station. So the entire system is setup not to reward quality and craftsmanship but is setup to reward quantity. They have QC checks put in place as the balance, but it's my opinion that if you are not rewarding individual craftsman for their investment in craftsmanship (aka pay hourly or salaried) you're not going to get that same quality. That being said that master craftsman will produce maybe at best 1 unit per day where the heartland line does 10. Now I am sure you could find an RV manufacturer which prides themselves on craftsmanship but you're going to pay at least double for the same unit. 100K sounds like a lot, but vehicles these days are costing 62 to 63K if not more (look at a new dwr 1 ton). And that doesn't have any appliances or heating or other attributes.
I guess what I am saying is that while I agree that most of the issues brought up on the forums should not have made it past the lead QC check, heartland and other manufacturers are not setting an environment to reward it. I am not willing to pay 200k for a quality built RV so yes I am settling just a bit on a 50k 42 foot house on wheels understanding that I will have to fix some of that myself. I had to remind my wife that her new car she purchased cost 10k more than our house on wheels so we can invest a bit into repairs.
Any way I hope this post might help shed some light on the supposed craftsmanship issues and help put into perspective a bit on my opinion for why I am ok and actually pleased with the quality of my unit.
adam
Well-known member
I'm glad my thread has stimulated some constructive input.
We can all learn from this at so many levels. From the simple things that I did on my shop floor through to a discussion about quality control in the industry. Heartland is NOT a rolling nightmare as another poster suggested and I agree with Jim that Heartland meets or exceeds the industry standard.
I love my Heartland, for now.
When I go shopping again I will do my due diligence and compare. Other lower end manufacturers throw things together and send the units on their way - let the dealers or the owners figure it out later......even if its under warranty.
If as a buyer I could go to a product build sheet/options list and check off options like "organized/clean" utility runs or "quality designed underbelly panels" then I surely would have paid extra for it! And that begs the questions how much extra would it really cost to sort this out while the unit was being built. Having choices like that as a informed RV consumer means more than optioning my unit with a 46" TV versus a 60" TV for example.
Heartlands product line has something for everyone, (with all do respect to our other members) the Landmark is the flagship for the company, but so much of this comes down to economics and demographics and I suspect that these manufacturers have a keen sense of where/what their average consumer is willing to spend money on - and that's where a line is drawn in the sand.
My wife loves the interior design and features of our Key Largo, but it wouldn't take much for me to sway her to buy a bigger tow vehicle, or getting a custom designed frame and so on. But if as buyers of these units we can send a message out saying we are "aware" then it should matter for something. This discussion is about making great units even better!
While we are on the topic of QC have a look at my last thread;
//heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/47811-Landmark-GFI
Adam
We can all learn from this at so many levels. From the simple things that I did on my shop floor through to a discussion about quality control in the industry. Heartland is NOT a rolling nightmare as another poster suggested and I agree with Jim that Heartland meets or exceeds the industry standard.
I love my Heartland, for now.
When I go shopping again I will do my due diligence and compare. Other lower end manufacturers throw things together and send the units on their way - let the dealers or the owners figure it out later......even if its under warranty.
If as a buyer I could go to a product build sheet/options list and check off options like "organized/clean" utility runs or "quality designed underbelly panels" then I surely would have paid extra for it! And that begs the questions how much extra would it really cost to sort this out while the unit was being built. Having choices like that as a informed RV consumer means more than optioning my unit with a 46" TV versus a 60" TV for example.
Heartlands product line has something for everyone, (with all do respect to our other members) the Landmark is the flagship for the company, but so much of this comes down to economics and demographics and I suspect that these manufacturers have a keen sense of where/what their average consumer is willing to spend money on - and that's where a line is drawn in the sand.
My wife loves the interior design and features of our Key Largo, but it wouldn't take much for me to sway her to buy a bigger tow vehicle, or getting a custom designed frame and so on. But if as buyers of these units we can send a message out saying we are "aware" then it should matter for something. This discussion is about making great units even better!
While we are on the topic of QC have a look at my last thread;
//heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/47811-Landmark-GFI
Adam
Looking at it from another point, HL should include a form that has to be filled out by the dealer where they would note all items that needed to be taken care of during their PDI before delivery to buyer. This would give HL an idea where the most problems areas are. If HL pays the dealer to do a PDI, Do not know how the system works, the dealer would not get paid until the form is received back. Just thinking out of the box.
Don
Don
wdk450
Well-known member
Gang:
I am trying to think through the Coroplast replacement on my frame repair job. I would like to use the old stuff I cut out in full cross sections, just because it is so hard to come by, big size means big shipping charges, and I'm cheap. Luckily rain and wet roads is a rare event in parched California, so I could even drive it for a while without the Corplast until I am ready to take on the job.
Anyways, I came up with the idea of overlapping the panels about an inch, with the inch towards the front of the trailer of the trailing panel overlapping over the rear end of the panel forward of it, and securing the joint with multiple velcro strips securely glued in place. I know Corplast is polyethylene, and hard to glue, but there are special glues out there just for this. I could even bolt in the velcro strips. What do the experts out there think of this idea???
I am trying to think through the Coroplast replacement on my frame repair job. I would like to use the old stuff I cut out in full cross sections, just because it is so hard to come by, big size means big shipping charges, and I'm cheap. Luckily rain and wet roads is a rare event in parched California, so I could even drive it for a while without the Corplast until I am ready to take on the job.
Anyways, I came up with the idea of overlapping the panels about an inch, with the inch towards the front of the trailer of the trailing panel overlapping over the rear end of the panel forward of it, and securing the joint with multiple velcro strips securely glued in place. I know Corplast is polyethylene, and hard to glue, but there are special glues out there just for this. I could even bolt in the velcro strips. What do the experts out there think of this idea???
danemayer
Well-known member
Bill, I like the overlap idea but would do 2-3 inches and wouldn't trust velcro. Every piece of velcro I've ever had that was exposed to weather degraded within a short time.
I have one overlapped joint near the axles where I've screwed into a treated 1x4 that's sitting on the frame. Someone else recently posted about using a strip of 3/16" aluminum. Screwing the coroplast into a support takes the stress off the tape that seals the joint.
I have one overlapped joint near the axles where I've screwed into a treated 1x4 that's sitting on the frame. Someone else recently posted about using a strip of 3/16" aluminum. Screwing the coroplast into a support takes the stress off the tape that seals the joint.
wdk450
Well-known member
While doing a websearch I FOUND the black Coroplast available through online order from Home Depot, with free shipping to your local store. You do have to buy a pack of 10 4X8 sheets ($225), but with my 38 foot Bighorn, this will be just enough. Delivery time is only about a week. Here is the link:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbrande...ed-Plastic-Sheet-10-Pack-COR4896-BK/205051024
On the Velcro idea, maybe I could do some cable holder clips bolted to the Coroplast with fender washers, and run cable ties between the corresponding loops on each end of the Coroplast. The clips I am thinking of look like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbrande...ed-Plastic-Sheet-10-Pack-COR4896-BK/205051024
On the Velcro idea, maybe I could do some cable holder clips bolted to the Coroplast with fender washers, and run cable ties between the corresponding loops on each end of the Coroplast. The clips I am thinking of look like this:
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