Upgrade to larger tow vehicle

[marvmarcy]

Dave, My personal experiences make me wary of the ASHS.

I had the trailer connector cord fall out on the highway and had no trailer brakes on my 20,000# trailer. I realized it when pulling off the highway on a short ramp with a cross road just ahead at the stop sigh. If I'd been driving a pickup with or without an ASHS, I believe it would have been dangerous getting stopped in a hurry, if I could have done it at all. The brakes on my Volvo are designed to stop more than my combined weight, so I stopped easily.

While traveling west of St Louis on I70 near Wentzville, I slowed suddenly because cars were braking quickly to avoid an accident just ahead. I was rammed from behind by a Silver Eagle bus that locked brakes and couldn't swerve to avoid me. It was a huge impact, caving in the whole front of the bus and totalling my trailer. It also damaged the massive ET air hitch which didn't let go as would most hitches. Because I was in my Volvo, we weren't hurt, but had it been a pickup, I'm sure it would have been considerably worse. The bus was towed away, but we drove away.

The added weight of the ASHS would have exacerbated my drive train weaknesses in my F550.

I'd much rather have my Volvo ( paid $24,000 for it) than a $50,000 pickup plus a $10,000 ASHS.

This is just my personal opinion and not meant to disparage the ASHS.

 

[crazybanshee]

Towing 16K with my F350 here in Colorado the engine temp would run on the hot side and the tranny would run about 215 degrees on long pass climbs. 24k would have smoked it years ago. The Volvo does all the Colorado passes at speed without any signs of high temps. Plus the down hills with the Jake brake are stress free. A decent HDT is about half the cost of a new pickup.

 

[scottyb]

You will not need a doubles endorsement. And the length is not included. The safety hitch increases your towing capacity by 50%. Just about any 3/4 ton diesel with towing package can tow long and heavy 5th wheel trailers.

Example: If the truck's towing capacity is 16,500 pounds, with the safety hitch, you can safely tow up to 24,750 pounds.

I can understand the added weight due to the additional braking power and weight distribution. However, I wonder about the gear ratio of the F250' and F350 SRW's. Are they up to the task? I am still not convinced of a variance in length. The Texas law is pretty specific, 65' max. The pictures say it all. The only exception is a tractor-trailer and a car hauler.

 

[Lndeatr]

You will not need a doubles endorsement. And the length is not included. The safety hitch increases your towing capacity by 50%. Just about any 3/4 ton diesel with towing package can tow long and heavy 5th wheel trailers.

Example: If the truck's towing capacity is 16,500 pounds, with the safety hitch, you can safely tow up to 24,750 pounds.

in California the laws are real specific. If the weight of the dolly and towed vehicle is over 6000lbs, you need a Class A with doubles/triples endorsement. Also, 65 feet length is max. Towing safely is not just about braking. As it is now, I am at my max legal gross combined towing weight. That doesn't change legally no matter what safety features I add to my truck or towed vehicle.

Again the concept is great for states that don't have as restrictive laws and for trucks that are not already at their max power wise. I am looking to stay legal while increasing my pulling power as well as safety. I like the idea of buying a clean used class 7 or 8 for $25,000 vs a new dually for $50,000 to $70,000.

 

[Invizatu]

After a little searching, I found some interesting information. First off, TXBOBCAT (Bob) had called DPS and was informed that it does not matter what the sticker in the door says, the laws and regulations are based on what is on the registration. My door sticker says GVWR of 12,300 which is dry weight of 7800 plus payload of 4500 (dually). My registration and title both state dry weight of 7,500 plus 2,000 payload, a total of 9,500 lbs. (which is basically what a SRW would be) All information is based on the vin number punched in their computers. So the 9,500 plus my trailer GVWR of 15,500 puts me at 25,000 lbs (on paper), which means I don't need a Class A (non commercial) license. Bob was told they would not let him take the test for a class A unless his paperwork showed a GCVWR of 26,001 lbs or more. (TEXAS)

Editorial Correction!... It was not TXBOBCAT (BOB) that called DPS, it was another fellow Texan forum member that just bought a new Bighorn and Ford F350 Truck.
I am easily confused at this stage of my life, memory playing tricks on me!
Sorry Bob.

 

[TXBobcat]

No problem.. we all have the CRS problem ever so often..

BC

 

[porthole]

Somehow I just don't see this thing giving a 50% increase in towing capacity.

Towing limits are towing limits and adding a couple of brakes, that could fail simply for a wiring issue, would not add 11,000 pounds to my already 22,500 5th wheel capacity.
Nor would I want to work my truck that hard thinking I could safely pull 33,000+ pounds.

Certainly not worth $10K

Doesn't matter what AHSH says.
What do the feds and truck manufacturers say?

 

[DW_Gray]

Marv,

First of all, I’d say there is no comparison between truck like a Volvo and a pickup truck. Of course, an MDT or HDT will be a much safer tow vehicle. As for me, and I suspect the same for many RVers, I don’t want the bigger truck because of the additional maintenance requirements, etc., that go along with it. And it’s not something I want to jump into to go get some tomatoes at the local grocer.

I had the trailer connector cord fall out on the highway and had no trailer brakes on my 20,000# trailer. I realized it when pulling off the highway on a short ramp with a cross road just ahead at the stop sigh. If I'd been driving a pickup with or without an ASHS, I believe it would have been dangerous getting stopped in a hurry, if I could have done it at all. The brakes on my Volvo are designed to stop more than my combined weight, so I stopped easily.

Okay, that happened to you. From all the reading I have done the past 4 years, I haven’t found any evidence that is a significant problem. If one is using a modern and approved connector assembly, it is difficult for a cord to just fall out because of the built-in locking feature. Therefore I don’t buy that as an argument against the ASHS. Besides, I’d think if disconnect was a problem, the automotive and RV industry would most likely change to a military style canon plug, which really isn’t bad idea.

The added weight of the ASHS would have exacerbated my drive train weaknesses in my F550.

I doubt that. But we are not in the position to prove either position without scientific or mechanical evidence.

 

[DW_Gray]

I can understand the added weight due to the additional braking power and weight distribution. However, I wonder about the gear ratio of the F250' and F350 SRW's. Are they up to the task?

Why not? There are plenty of customers towing with that type of truck using the ASHS.

I am still not convinced of a variance in length. The Texas law is pretty specific, 65' max. The pictures say it all. The only exception is a tractor-trailer and a car hauler.

I suggest you investigate some more. You just might find that Texas exempts the ASHS (lift/drop axles) from the length requirement.

 

[DW_Gray]

As it is now, I am at my max legal gross combined towing weight. That doesn't change legally no matter what safety features I add to my truck or towed vehicle.

I haven't seen anywhere that "Gross Combined Weight Rating" (GCWR) is a legal issue. GCWR is not listed on the certification label. The certification label is the only legally binding statement. So far, I have found that GCWR is nothing more than a recommendation by the manufacturer. But if someone can point me to evidence that states otherwise, please provide the links.

Also, to my current knowledge, unless you live in a state that requires you to declare a maximum hauling/towing weight, no LEO writes a ticket for RVers being overweight.

 

[priorguy]

I just checked the Ministry of transportation of Ontario website. In July of 2011 Class G drivers are allowed to tow with a pick up with the original box to 6000kg trailer and 11000kg combined weight. Previously there was a 4600KG trailer limit.

The maximium ball hitch weight is 10,000 pounds, anything heavier must be a fifth wheel. There are other conditions pertaining to standards and length, width, height. These standards match 41 US states and 5 Canadian provinces. You may still tow 2 trailers provided combined trailer weight is less then 4600kg and the total combination is less then 73' long and brakes on all axels. Anything exceding the limits requires a class AR or non commercial license. Seems most of the big fiver drivers in Ontario will now require a license upgrade.

I also read that towing mirrors must be removed when not towing, and cannot excede 8.5 inches from the body of a car or SUV. No mention of puckup trucks.

A fifthwheel trailer exceding 41' and up to 53' must have air brakes on all axels of the combination. Are there any fifth wheels out there with air brakes?

 

[marvmarcy]

A fifthwheel trailer exceding 41' and up to 53' must have air brakes on all axels of the combination. Are there any fifth wheels out there with air brakes?

Yes, there are quite a few big fivers with air brakes. I know one that was factory built with them, and it is towed with a Volvo 780. The trailer is a New Horizons and weighs in at 25,000#. BlueDot makes an air brake conversion kit for fifth wheels, and I know several that were converted several years ago. This only makes sense for rigs towed by trucks with air brakes.

 

[marvmarcy]

Dave, This is getting too much like discussing which truck is best. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[priorguy]

Excellant to know, I am thinking long term once the kids are gone to go class a and I like the LM Volvo setup you have. I've even seen packages listed on various "used" sites that are popular enough not to name. Do you have another vehicle for "grocery getting?"

Thanks for the info.

 

[marvmarcy]

While in the west (CO and MT) we drive a minivan. In NC we have a 16 yo car that stays there at in-laws. In Key West we ride bicycles everywhere. Bicycles go on the truck behind sleeper on a short drom box and go everywhere with us. We tried hauling a big scooter on the truck but weren't confortable on it, especially in heavy traffic. I have no problems driving the truck for groceries, propane, etc., even in Key West.

Be prepared for all sorts of comments ranging from "Why do you need something that big" to "Finally, a truck that can really handle a big trailer" and lots of questions and misunderstanding.

 

[Lndeatr]

Marv, how big is your 5th wheel and what kind of mileage do you get?

 

[Birchwood]

Its not complicated....just don't exceed the GVWR of your tow vehicle.Many owners will talk axle ratings etc but they are just defending their undersized tow vehicle

 

[marvmarcy]

Marv, how big is your 5th wheel and what kind of mileage do you get?

I have a 2012 Key Largo (40-41' and 16,250# gross) towed by a 2001 Volvo VNL 42T420 (16,500# bobtail). The two units weigh about 30,000# together as normally loaded. I normally drive 60 - 63 mph and have averaged 9.5 mpg since I bought the fiver in Nov 2011. It gets over 10 on long flat roads and around 9 in the mountains. It has a Cummins ISX (15 liter) 450hp / 1650 lbft torque.

The VNL42T420 means it is Volvo - N style - Long nose - 4 "wheels" (2 axles) - 2 drive "wheels" - Tractor - 42.0" sleeper. It has the smallest of the sleeper cabs and has a factory single axle, making it the size of many class 6 trucks (medium duty), only it is taller and more sturdy with a big engine. It has a 181" wheelbase and will turn sharper than any pickup. Since the hitch pin is 3' behind the truck rear axle, the fiver tracks better and is easier to maneuver.

 

[porthole]

I haven't seen anywhere that "Gross Combined Weight Rating" (GCWR) is a legal issue. GCWR is not listed on the certification label. The certification label is the only legally binding statement. So far, I have found that GCWR is nothing more than a recommendation by the manufacturer. But if someone can point me to evidence that states otherwise, please provide the links.

Also, to my current knowledge, unless you live in a state that requires you to declare a maximum hauling/towing weight, no LEO writes a ticket for RVers being overweight.

Why not? There are plenty of customers towing with that type of truck using the ASHS
I suggest you investigate some more. You just might find that Texas exempts the ASHS (lift/drop axles) from the length requirement.

Dave, some of your most recent comments pretty much go against everything you have been talking about for the last three years.


Overwieght is overweight, no matter how we try to justify it our own minds.

Using the logic that addding additional or new equipment I could speculate that my 14K rated trialer is now an 18.5K GVW. I changed the weak, 7k axle, springs rum brakes for a superior heavy duty 8k IS and disc brakes, doesn't change the GVW though.

 

[DW_Gray]

Dave, some of your most recent comments pretty much go against everything you have been talking about for the last three years.

Overwieght is overweight, no matter how we try to justify it our own minds.

Using the logic that adding additional or new equipment I could speculate that my 14K rated trailer is now an 18.5K GVW. I changed the weak, 7k axle, springs rum brakes for a superior heavy duty 8k IS and disc brakes, doesn't change the GVW though.

Duane, I disagree. I haven't changed anything or my comments haven't changed in my overall view of towing safety. I haven't said anything to imply one could safely tow an overloaded trailer. Whatever the trailer's certification label states is still the same, regardless of any upgrades on the trailer. I haven't mentioned GVW in this thread.

The ASHS has never been advertised stating that one can safely tow overloaded trailers. And I haven't said such a thing.

The ASHS is ONLY about the tow vehicle. Consider reading my article: A Lesson on Gross Combined Weight Rating

With that said, I am developing new thoughts/opinions/hypothesis on GCWR for tow vehicles.