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davebennington
05-15-2007, 07:25 AM
I was checking out the Golden Gate yesterday trying to get everything ready for the trip to the rally. I came accross something that has me concerned, It looks like the tires have been rubbing the shocks I cannot see how this is possible unless something major is wrong. Has anyone else have this problem or am I worrying for no reason???:confused: I have check the serial number against the recall and our rig is not included nor did we get a letter.

Dave

Uncle Rog
05-15-2007, 11:31 AM
Dave, "redneck-life" has a 3670 with the same problem and has had the axle people check it out and said they did not know why the problem was occuring. He did not blow a tire but it was close. I will tell him about you deal and have him contact you.........

Forrest Fetherolf
05-15-2007, 05:35 PM
On my 3600RL the passenger side rear tire rubs the shock. Rubbing occurs only on sharp turns. Measure to distance between all shocks and tires, on mine the drivers side clearance is 1-1/2" vs 3/4" on the passenger side. The springs and u-bolts may not be centered on the axle flange and/or the spring hangers are not welded vertical. Mine is a little of both.

Lippert's frame manual explains how to verify axle alignment by measuring from center of hitchpin to each axle. Variation should be less than 1/4".

As for the shocks, has anyone ever seen shocks positioned at a 45 deg angle or more from vertical of axle? Mine is. This method only allows the shocks to be 50% or less efficient. With very little extra effort from the engineering department, the shocks could have been mounted vertical so they would work as intended. Lippert does not install the axles or shocks on their frames, Heartland does the installation when the frame is in the first position of the assembly line.

ChopperBill
05-15-2007, 06:06 PM
I thought they had "discovered" that the Mor/ryde worked better without the shocks. If that was the case I would just take 'em off.

Forrest Fetherolf
05-15-2007, 07:02 PM
I thought they had "discovered" that the Mor/ryde worked better without the shocks. If that was the case I would just take 'em off.

ChopperBill,
I would agree with taking them off because they are useless the way they are installed. Maybe the person that discovered mor/ryde worked better without them designed the shock installation in the first place. I had a Pace Arrow 34' motorhome with a mor/ryde rear axle, it had 4 shocks per axle and all were installed very very verticle.
Forrest

redneck-life
05-15-2007, 11:03 PM
my name is redneck-life I have a 2008 3760 big horn ,my back right side tire is hitting on the shock, worn a hole almost all the way through it, it has been in the shop for about 4 weeks ,but no one can seem to found out what is going on, so they are just putting a new tire on and hoping,I just go away, I just hope I don't blow out a tire and kill someone. I feel something needs to be done to put this back on heartland or the axle company. I'm still paying the payment on a 5th wheel I feel is unsafe. Can anyone out there help:(

Scott
05-16-2007, 07:18 AM
I have forwarded some of your questions to engineering for some input from them, but I can tell you that the Trail-Air system is not the Mor-Ryde, they are designed differently, and the shocks do play a part in the Trail-Air riding smooth, so don't take them off. As for the angle of the shocks, I am getting an answer from someone who knows, but I know that the shocks are just part of the overall suspension solution that Trail-Air has designed and how they work exactly (like which angle is best) with their center piece has been carefully calculated. RVs are not cars, so it shouldn't surprise you when the shocks on these axles do not function the same way.
Regarding redneck-life's comments, both the dealer and Heartland and Lippert were not able to recreate the tire touching the shock. The conclusion was that this only could have happened when the coach was being turned at a severe angle. Everything measured exactly where it should be and the tire was not touching the shock; nor did it touch the shock under any typical turning scenarios that they attempted at the dealership. I told him via the phone when I talked to him a couple of weeks ago that beyond literally having Lippert and the dealer and Heartland customer service repair the coach and see that it works correctly under normal conditions, I wasn't sure what else there was to do. Outside of executing a severe turning angle for a prolonged period of time (going back and forth), we just could not recreate a situtation where the tire touched the shock.
ST

davebennington
05-16-2007, 07:43 AM
Scott,

Thank you for the input. I have signed up for some minor maintenance at the rally. I was not aware of this problem before 2 days ago, is it possible for someone to take a quick look at my shocks/tire problem and let me know if I have a safety issue before we leave for home on Sunday?

dave

Scott
05-16-2007, 07:48 AM
Dave B. Yes, it possible for someone to look at it. Can you get some digital shots and send them to Jim Fenner. Call him at 574.262.8030 (fennerj@heartlandrvs.com).
ST

davebennington
05-16-2007, 08:06 AM
Scott,

Thank you, I will do it today.

dave

Forrest Fetherolf
05-16-2007, 10:41 AM
As I posted above, check the clearance between the shock and wheel, depending on the tire width will determine the clearance. The clearance on both sides should be equal. If not, then the axle is not centered on the frame properly. If both are equal, hook up and make a shape turn right or left. You will be supprised to find the amount of flex and side movement in the springs and tires. Have someone stand by the axles when turning and listen to the popping and grinding noise. Stop in the middle of the turn and remeasure. You will find out why the tires might rub the shocks. Depending on the tow angle of the rv will determine the pivot point between the rear axles. If more weight is on the rear axle, then the front axle will tend to slide (scuff) more when turning and the pivot point will be closer to the rear axle.

When driving on the highway, try to align the rig with the white lane line. You will discover that it is almost impossible to do. Why? Most all highways are crowned (sloped) to divert water to the shoulded and with this condition the trailer tends to drift to the right. I have also noticed most of the blowouts occur on the right rear axle because of the side drift, tire scuffing, and more weight is transferred on that tire. These three conditions will cause the tire to roll on the side wall creating excessive heat and side wall failure. Then BOOM.

jpmorgan37
05-16-2007, 10:53 AM
Forrest;

Your observations are right on. To carry the discussion a little farther, I start off with 110 pounds in each tire. With my Doran, I can check tire pressure when I want. During the course of the day, especially on a hot "90 +" day, I like to watch the pressures. Most of the time, my right rear tire has increased up to five pounds more than the left front, which is under the kitchen and is the heavier side. When we parked Monday afternoon, the right rear was 125#, both front tires were 121# and the left rear was 123#. I have the MorRyde suspension, no shocks and still running the Trail America Tires.

John

Forrest Fetherolf
05-16-2007, 11:08 AM
jp,

I have not installed the pressure monitors, as of yet. I carry a noncontact infared laser temperature gun. Your increase of tire pressure is directly related to the increase in temperature. My right rear tire runs about 3 deg hotter than the left rear and 5 degrees hotter than the front axle tires.

Forrest

jpmorgan37
05-16-2007, 11:17 AM
I feel so much better with the Pressure Pro system. I see so many torn up RV's coming into the park that had tire failures and didn't know it until somebody waved them down. By then it was too late. The Pressure Pro is not instantaneous. They reset every 5 minutes and gives an alarm if you have a 12% reduction in pressure from the original setting. My hope is that if I ever have a instant failure, I get the signal before the tire self destructs. Slow leak, no problem. We would be okay then. I haven't bought a pyrometer yet. I still use the hands on method for tires and hubs. I'll probably get one as they are much more accurate than my hands.

John

Forrest Fetherolf
05-16-2007, 12:26 PM
JP,

http://www.harborfreight.com (http://www.harborfreight.com/) has a pyrometer for $39.00.

Forrest



Admin: Added link --> http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=non-contact+&Submit=Go

phranc
05-16-2007, 08:05 PM
Thats a decent price.. Any downside to having a Harbor Freight brand rather than a 'name brand'??

jpmorgan37
05-16-2007, 08:18 PM
phranc;
I had so much stuff from harbor freight before we sold out, you wouldn't believe. Their stuff is not professional grade but for the layman, it works great and their warranty is good too. I still have some of their stuff with me. I don't hesitate in buying from them.
John

Scott
05-17-2007, 06:56 AM
Forest - Thank You for bringing up the very real issue of the highways being crowned which puts an extreme amount of extra pressure on the right side wheels, especially the rear one. That is a fact that I have NEVER heard anyone on this forum talk about before and it just so happens that I heard a long story about that yesterday from a tire expert.
You are absolutely right on that one.

phranc
05-17-2007, 06:57 AM
Thanks John,, I like the idea of a $40 saving..

Ken Washington
05-17-2007, 07:13 AM
John and others,
Has anyone thought that if we are getting a 15 lb. increase in tire pressure due to heat build up, maybe we should not start out with 110 lb. cold. I for one run 90 lb. cold with no problems and would worry if I knew that the pressure was that high after heating up. Just my two cents worth.

Ken

Scott
05-17-2007, 07:16 AM
Yet ANOTHER very good point brought up here by Ken Washington, one of the "original" Landmark owners.

Good input Ken.

jpmorgan37
05-17-2007, 07:31 AM
It would be nice to know what the tire manufacturers safety margin for maximum pressure is. They tell us to start with 110# cold and allow for pressure build up. If we start at a lower pressure, won't we develop more heat and potentially cause more damage to the casing? Many questions.

Ken Washington
05-17-2007, 07:40 AM
jpmorgan37,
I'm no expert on this but I think you have to look at what load you are putting on the tires. 110 lb. is for max load and I think we are not at max load. If we were, it would be a safety issue.

Ken

vangoes
05-17-2007, 07:48 AM
It was my understanding that the max "Cold" pressure stated on the tires had the safety margin built into it and that if you maintained the pressure at max when the tire was warm, you could be seriously under inflated depending on the load. At least thats what tire people have told me.

Jimmyt5
05-17-2007, 08:22 AM
There was a story on an other web sight about some guy being pulled over by a RV guy, who had Very low tires on his rig and was weaving all over the road, and he told the RV guy he just got the rig last week and he always starts out with low tires because they get warm and fill up.

I have been driving almost since tires were hard rubber and tires ALWAYS have had inflate with the tire cold. The pressure on the sidewall is COLD TIRE.:)

katkens
05-17-2007, 08:49 AM
It would be nice to know what the tire manufacturers safety margin for maximum pressure is. They tell us to start with 110# cold and allow for pressure build up. If we start at a lower pressure, won't we develop more heat and potentially cause more damage to the casing? Many questions.
This has been my position also.(BUT) I went to a rally once and Goodyear Rep. there said you could run less air if weight was less than the max rating. In the same breath he said if to low would increase heat build up. He then said he generally recommends max cold pressure because most people don't know exact axle weight of each axle and side to side weight and load for trips differently.
Then again on my truck the sticker tells me to put 80lbs inthe rear tires and 60 in the front for max loading. :confused: Ken

jpmorgan37
05-17-2007, 09:08 AM
I was running between 2900 pounds and 3500 pounds load per tire. My right rear was the heaviest when last weighed, which also happens to be the one with the most pressure build up. I have tried to rearrange my load for better balance but haven't had individual tires weighed since the rally last year. Another thing I found interesting. The difference in tire pressure (cold) at 68 degrees ambient and 80 degrees ambient is 3 pounds and the trailer hadn't moved.

John

Ken Washington
05-17-2007, 10:17 AM
Everyone,
This could go on and on but who do you want to believe? I think that if the tire looks good ( stands up straight ), wears even, side walls not bulged out and air pressure at a level equal to load than it will be OK.

Ken

Forrest Fetherolf
05-17-2007, 10:54 AM
In regards to proper tire inflation, most tire manufactures post load/pressure schedules. It is very important to a least weigh the rig to determine the total weight on all trailer axles, weighing each axle separately is better, and each tire individually is the best.

All tires should be inflated to the heaviest load condition as per the load/pressure schedule. I would definitely not rely on a placard in the rv indication tire inflation. How does that placard know the current loading and type of tire? The placard is using, what I call, the "s.w.a.g" method for tire pressure................"s.w.a.g" method = "scientific wild a-- guess."

Some people say "fill er up to the max and go." This idea may be comforting to know your tires are full with the possibility of less heat build up and less sidewall flexing. I would rather use the recommended tire inflation to salvage the $30,000 to $100,000 of portable home componets bouncing down the highway.