12 Volt Converter/Charger to Battery Circuit Breaker Got Me Too

[wdk450]

Gang:
I have had my Bighorn 7 1/2 years now, have read many posts on this circuit breaker tripping, and it finally got me. I was setting up, had plugged in to shore power BEFORE operating my landing gear to lift the pin off of the truck hitch, as I usually do, with the idea that this gives the battery capacity the additional current help of 60 amps from the converter/charger. This was after I left my rig in storage for 2 weeks with the refrigerator ON in Gas mode. The battery may have been somewhat discharged. Actually, what I think tripped the breaker is overextending the rear stabilizers. At that time the stabilizers quit the auto resetting circuit breaker for the stabilizers tripped. But I think at that time, the charging breaker tripped, too. I THINK THAT PART OF THE REASON THE CHARGING BREAKER TRIPPED IS THAT IT IS UNDERRATED - THE PROGRESSIVE CONVERTER CHARGER CAN PUT OUT A MAX CURRENT OF 60 AMPS - THE BREAKER BETWEEN THE CONVERTER/CHARGER AND BATTERY IS RATED AT 50 AMPS. Therefore, the breaker is prone to trip under (normal) maximum charging situations.

I only realized that something was wrong with the battery/charging system because I have the remote pendant readout for the Progressive converter/charger in my inside electrical control panel, and the LED stayed solid ON, indicating continuous bulk charging (14.4 volts) mode. I tried turning off the AC breaker to the converter/charger, and all of the 12 volt lighting and functions in the trailer went OFF. I then knew that either my battery was completely dead, or that the converter/charger circuit breaker had tripped. I also have a small voltmeter wired to my tank monitor panel TEST switch, which I checked - The voltage there (connected to the converter output) read 13.6 volts. Some voltmeter checks near the battery and the charging circuit breaker showed different voltages on the 2 terminals of the breaker - not what you would expect from a normally closed switch. I couldn't find the reset button at night, so I disconnected the battery from the bus bar, installed an external battery charger on the battery for the night, and went to bed.

The next day I started MY SEARCH FOR THE ELUSIVE RESET BUTTON. What I learned is that ON MY RIG THE ONLY CIRCUIT BREAKER WITH A BUTTON ON THE BUS BAR SIDE WAS THE ONE FOR THE CHARGER. Evidently, all of the other breakers are self-resetting. Resetting the charging breaker button cured the problems, and voltage readings confirmed that.

This common problem that doesn't readily show itself cries out for an indicator in the trailer that this breaker has tripped. My first idea is to run a feed wire DIRECTLY FROM THE BATTERY to a selector switch feeding the tank monitor power. One side of the switch will feed voltage from the converter, the other side of the switch will feed voltage from the battery, if the voltages are different, the charging breaker is tripped. A step up from this idea is a simple voltage comparator IC that changes output state if the 2 input voltages are not the same. The output could drive a LED alarm at the control panel.

I think that the Heartland designers did the best they could do with standard parts on the charging circuit breaker size. The converter/charger doesn't come in a 50 amp size, and standard 12 volt circuit breakers don't come in a 60 amp size. There is such a thing as an ADJUSTABLE circuit breaker that can be calibrated to various trip currents, but this is an expensive option.

BTW, before I finally found the breaker reset button, I ordered two 50 amp self-resetting circuit breakers off of E-Bay. I will probably install one of those in place of the original 50 amp manual reset charging circuit breaker.

 

[danemayer]

Bill,

Although replacing the manual reset breaker with an auto reset breaker will work, I think the reason it's that way is to open the circuit if there's a problem at the battery. On the other circuits where you have auto reset, they're not in continuous operation. If there's a problem during operation, after a few retries, you let go of the switch. On a continuous operation circuit, you may not be there to shut things down.

 

[wdk450]

Dan:
There IS a TYPE 2 resettable circuit breaker that will not reset until the power source (Converter/charger) is turned OFF then ON again. I will probably leave the manual reset circuit breaker in place, and work on some sort of indication system.

 

[danemayer]

Bill,

Back in the early 70s, before auto manufacturers had smart headlight circuits, my friends and I used to have a buzzer with a diode (I think) that went across the headlight circuit and ignition circuit at the fuse box. If the headlights were on but the ignition was off, power flowed through the diode to the buzzer. Seems like this might be similar. If you have power from the converter, but not from the battery side of the circuit, the converter powers the buzzer.

I don't remember components used or what values. But maybe someone else reading this can suggest the exact components and arrangement needed to power a buzzer or led.

 

[mlpeloquin]

Bill,

Back in the early 70s, before auto manufacturers had smart headlight circuits, my friends and I used to have a buzzer with a diode (I think) that went across the headlight circuit and ignition circuit at the fuse box. If the headlights were on but the ignition was off, power flowed through the diode to the buzzer. Seems like this might be similar. If you have power from the converter, but not from the battery side of the circuit, the converter powers the buzzer.

I don't remember components used or what values. But maybe someone else reading this can suggest the exact components and arrangement needed to power a buzzer or led.

I think I am going to do this as well. Hasn't happened to me in a long time, but would want to know when it does. In the on state the circuit breaker contacts will have a few milivolts across the breaker and will not activate the buzzer. Open will put 12V across the open contacts and the buzzer wired in parallel with the contacts or less depending on the impedance to ground. Now I will have to measure the impedance through the open side of the breaker to find out the voltage that the buzzer will have across it. A Mallory Sonalert 12N40PQ has an operating voltage of 3V to 12V and can see as much as 15V without damage. Has a current draw of 5ma at rated voltage and 83db of noise. $3.24 each at Digikey. No resistor or diode needed, but soldering wires to the leads is necessary for this part. A panel mount part with same specs except 18ma draw still require soldering, but might accept crimp blade terminals. To tired to look into this at this time. I will get back sometime tomorrow. I do have my rig in front of the house so I can check it out. Looks like it should be an easy addition.

 

[danemayer]

If crimp-on terminals work, it would be pretty simple to loosen the nuts on the circuit breaker terminals and install the buzzer.

 

[wdk450]

We could websearch for the complete buzzer.
I thought about this type of solution, but with the small differential in voltage between the converter output voltage and the charged battery, across the open charging circuit breaker, there may not be enough voltage to run the headlight buzzer. The buzzer device was made for connection between a power source and a load device (headlights) which is grounded at the end of its wiring; NOT between 2 similar voltage sources. This buzzer might work if the batteries get discharged, so there is 1 higher and 1 lower voltage.

 

[Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn]

Edit.
It was brought to my attention that with power on both sides of this manual reset breaker that powers is actually never lost it is just isolated from one another. So my relay to buzzer idea would not work unless power is lost.
So I'm still trying to figure out a way to accomplish it now.
Just because.. LOL
I'm not going to do this Mod I just like the challenge to figure it out.


You can wire in a 12V automotive 5 pin relay and a 12V buzzer.
The power at the circuit breaker will hold the relay open (buzzer off) then if power is lost the buzzer will sound.
http://cdn.qualitymobilevideo.com/m...eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/e/new_18_16.jpg

http://www.elecdirect.com/cole-hers...MIviK2p2fDGSlPM1art_2cRcK-9SyxH1IaAqWX8P8HAQ#

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[mlpeloquin]

You can wire in a 12V automotive 5 pin relay and a 12V buzzer.
The power at the circuit breaker will hold the relay open (buzzer off) then if power is lost the buzzer will sound.
http://cdn.qualitymobilevideo.com/m...eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/e/new_18_16.jpg

http://www.elecdirect.com/cole-hers...MIviK2p2fDGSlPM1art_2cRcK-9SyxH1IaAqWX8P8HAQ#

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Looked at the problem today. With no AC power and breaker open there is approximately 25K to DC ground. Using a resistor to ground to provide a simple solution would require a half watt or more of continuous draw. So a simple fix is out and would require some circuitry. To keep it simple a relay would be the choice. The relay coil would be charged with the output terminal of the breaker and the buzzer by the battery. The relay coil will need a kickback suppression diode. Some do come that way such as the one you chose. Note that the buzzer would only be energized when the circuit breaker is open and the AC power is lost. The converter's DC voltage is present on the breaker output and the battery is on the relay input or vice versa depending on how you look at it.

 

[Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn]

It was brought to my attention that with power on both sides of this manual reset breaker. the power is actually never lost it is just isolated from one another. So my relay to buzzer idea would not work unless power is lost.
So I'm still trying to figure out a way to accomplish it now.
Just because.. LOL
I'm not going to do this Mod I just like the challenge to figure it out.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[wdk450]

I think I am going to do this as well. Hasn't happened to me in a long time, but would want to know when it does. In the on state the circuit breaker contacts will have a few milivolts across the breaker and will not activate the buzzer. Open will put 12V across the open contacts and the buzzer wired in parallel with the contacts or less depending on the impedance to ground. Now I will have to measure the impedance through the open side of the breaker to find out the voltage that the buzzer will have across it. A Mallory Sonalert 12N40PQ has an operating voltage of 3V to 12V and can see as much as 15V without damage. Has a current draw of 5ma at rated voltage and 83db of noise. $3.24 each at Digikey. No resistor or diode needed, but soldering wires to the leads is necessary for this part. A panel mount part with same specs except 18ma draw still require soldering, but might accept crimp blade terminals. To tired to look into this at this time. I will get back sometime tomorrow. I do have my rig in front of the house so I can check it out. Looks like it should be an easy addition.

Think about it - You have +12 volts from the converter on one side of the breaker, and +12 volts from the charged battery on the other side of the tripped circuit breaker. No significant voltage potential.

- - - Updated - - -

Looked at the problem today. With no AC power and breaker open there is approximately 25K to DC ground. Using a resistor to ground to provide a simple solution would require a half watt or more of continuous draw. So a simple fix is out and would require some circuitry. To keep it simple a relay would be the choice. The relay coil would be charged with the output terminal of the breaker and the buzzer by the battery. The relay coil will need a kickback suppression diode. Some do come that way such as the one you chose. Note that the buzzer would only be energized when the circuit breaker is open and the AC power is lost. The converter's DC voltage is present on the breaker output and the battery is on the relay input or vice versa depending on how you look at it.

The scenario most people encounter is that the converter is ON and supplying +12 volts to one side of the breaker, and the battery is still mostly charged and supplying +12 volts to the other side of the breaker. But the DC breaker connecting the two is tripped.

BRAINSTORM!!!

Maybe we should just make a habit of turning off the converter AC circuit breaker in the final stages of arrival set-up, and see if the lights go out?

Listening to my last suggestion sounds so easy, and non-technical, that I am going to add it to my space arrival checklist. I have removed my AC breaker panel cover permanently because I always switch my mains breakers on departure and arrival to save switching arcs on the hard-to-fix Progressive EMS power relay.

Problem solved!!!