50 Amp breaker for hydraulic slides

[jjwink]

We have a 2017 Landmark Syracuse, bought in Phoenix in March. On our first outing in cold weather the large slide with refrigerator and tv hesitated on going in and out. We had this same problem with our 2011 Rushmore. We were were told by HL customer service and other owners on the forum if we changed the 50 amp breaker to an 80amp we would not have this problem. We had a qualified RV maintenance man change it and never had another problem.

When the same problem started in our Syracuse we called HL Customer Service and again explained the problem. The person I spoke with , Gary, said he would have to check my records and check with someone. He said increasing the size of breaker probably would solve the problem because the pump for that slide is drawing too much power to operate. I asked if HL would cover the replacement but he said no, that is the way HL made it. We asked if making this change would void our waranty and he said it would not as long as all wiring was also changed.

Once again if they know this is a problem with these larger slides, why don’t they fix it in manufacturing? Has anyone else had this problem ?

 

[danemayer]

Hi jj,

I just posted a new user guide dealing with this problem and what to look at to fix it. The 80 amp breaker is one possible fix, but could mask an underlying problem. Take a look at the Hydraulic Slide Out Starts and Stops user guide.

 

[TravelTiger]

We had this start happening the first year we had our Big Country, about 10 or 11 months into ownership. In the cold, it was much worse. We replaced the 50amp with another 50 amp, and also replaced our batteries (so I also know all the connections are tight). We have not had it happen at all since then.

Replacing with the exact same may be a good place to start, as well as checking for loose connections and making sure your batteries are in good condition. Ours were probably not from the beginning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TedS]

The underlying problem is that Heartland will not accept that the 50 amp breaker is undersized. The pump motor is rated for 1 hp. At 12 vdc the motor is rated to draw 62 amps. Last I looked 62 is greater than 50.

 

[wdk450]

The underlying problem is that Heartland will not accept that the 50 amp breaker is undersized. The pump motor is rated for 1 hp. At 12 vdc the motor is rated to draw 62 amps. Last I looked 62 is greater than 50.

This is just like the 50 amp breaker they put between the battery and the charger, with the Progressive brand chargers being rated at 60 amps. I think that part of the problem is that regular 12 volt circuit breakers just come in certain defined amp ratings - 10, 25, 50 and so forth. No 60's or 62's. In fact the metal can stud types used by Heartland seem to have a maximum size of 50 amps from online searches. I did find a 60 amp (and higher) flat panel mount breakers, with an online search, but these cost $35-$50 each.

I thought there were adjustable 12 volt circuit breakers out there, but I could not find them. I DO remember adjustable 110vac circuit breakers on equipments I serviced as an electronics technician. The equipment mfr. would adjust them to their spec, then seal the adjusting screws.

 

[TedS]

I think you are correct that the short stop style breakers are only available up to 50 amps. Heartland should be able to get quantity discounts for the higher amp breakers.

 

[WillyBill]

@danemayer,

Thanks for all of your hard work on that great users guide for the hydraulics. I bet in the long run most of us will have an opportunity to benefit from this sooner or later.

Happy Thanksgiving!!!

WB

 

[meagle]

I am surprised that Heartland would not replace the breaker with an 80A one. My 2014 Landmark was having the same problem and not just in cold weather. Heartland had the dealer replace the 50A breaker with an 80A breaker and paid for the breaker and installation. The Heartland representative said they were having this problem on the larger units and was working with Lippert to fix this issue. They told me that this would not void any of the warranties for the system. Also, we were told by Heartland that the motor was rated for 100A and changing the breaker would not cause any untoward problems. Since it was changed 3 years ago we have not had any problems with the system.

 

[jbeletti]

I am surprised that Heartland would not replace the breaker with an 80A one. My 2014 Landmark was having the same problem and not just in cold weather. Heartland had the dealer replace the 50A breaker with an 80A breaker and paid for the breaker and installation. The Heartland representative said they were having this problem on the larger units and was working with Lippert to fix this issue. They told me that this would not void any of the warranties for the system. Also, we were told by Heartland that the motor was rated for 100A and changing the breaker would not cause any untoward problems. Since it was changed 3 years ago we have not had any problems with the system.

I was told in June of 2017 that Landmark (and perhaps all plant 2 products: LM, BH and BC) were going to an 80 amp breaker for they hydraulics. My unit was built a few months prior to that, so I can't confirm that this change took place. Perhaps someone with a July 2017 or later Landmark build can confirm the 80 amp breaker (likely a much larger format breaker).

 

[pegmikef]

In about 46K miles I have only had to replace that breaker once and that was just a few weeks ago. I know that the breaker size (and distance) dictate the wire size. It is a pretty short run from the bus to the pump, but I wonder if the wire size shouldn't be increased when these folks are replacing 50 amp breakers with 80 amp. I can understand upgrading at the factory because the engineers there probably insure that the appropriate wire size is used. I know if it was ac you certainly would not change a breaker from 15 Amps to 20 Amps if the romex is only 14 gauge, so why would dc be any different?

 

[oldelmer1]

I just had to change out my breaker, followed the instructions in the user's guide.

Easy as could be...

 

[TedS]

In about 46K miles I have only had to replace that breaker once and that was just a few weeks ago. I know that the breaker size (and distance) dictate the wire size. It is a pretty short run from the bus to the pump, but I wonder if the wire size shouldn't be increased when these folks are replacing 50 amp breakers with 80 amp. I can understand upgrading at the factory because the engineers there probably insure that the appropriate wire size is used. I know if it was ac you certainly would not change a breaker from 15 Amps to 20 Amps if the romex is only 14 gauge, so why would dc be any different?

Changing the wire size depends on the length of the run. In most cases in a trailer, it is not necessary. A run length in a house is significantly longer and you would probably violate a wiring code if you did not change wire size.

 

[wdk450]

In about 46K miles I have only had to replace that breaker once and that was just a few weeks ago. I know that the breaker size (and distance) dictate the wire size. It is a pretty short run from the bus to the pump, but I wonder if the wire size shouldn't be increased when these folks are replacing 50 amp breakers with 80 amp. I can understand upgrading at the factory because the engineers there probably insure that the appropriate wire size is used. I know if it was ac you certainly would not change a breaker from 15 Amps to 20 Amps if the romex is only 14 gauge, so why would dc be any different?

The 12 volt landing gear/slides motor usage is just for short intermittent periods, where the AC circuits may have high amperage, long usage periods heaters or air conditioners. This may justify not having to change out the 12 volt wiring with larger circuit breakers installed to eliminate tripping problems.

 

[jjwink]

We were told if we changed out the breaker we also needed to increase wire size.

 

[danemayer]

Changing from 50 amp to 80 amp would drive an upgrade of at least 1 wire size. So if you currently have AWG 4, it would go to at least AWG 2.

If the pump is pulling too many amps, using wire that isn't rated for that amperage is problematic. The resistance will be high, and there will be power loss. And don't forget that the pump ground wire is the return path for all that current, and is also undersized.

I can't help but think this isn't a great scenario.

 

[TedS]

Dan, you have to put numbers on the values. High, low, long, are subjective.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/wirega.html

 

[Hockster]

Dan Mayer is the voice of reason, he knows exactly what he is talking about, listen to him.
The circuit protective device is there to protect the wire, not the load.
Most motors have a built in thermal protector built in to protect them from overcurrent.
If you upgrade the breaker, you must upgrade both circuit conductors, it doesn't matter if it's an AC or D.C. Circuit.
One thing most are forgetting is, when you upgrade the breaker and not the wire, you are putting more current through a wire than what is was designed for, which causes heat and too much heat in a conductor, if great enough, can cause a fire.
Fire in a trailer, like a boat can be catastrophic.
When in doubt, contact a licensed Electrician.
This reminds me of the old day's when we still had fuse panels and people put a penny behind the fuse because it kept blowing, not a great idea.

Hockster

 

[danemayer]

Dan, you have to put numbers on the values. High, low, long, are subjective.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/wirega.html

Here's a link to a Direct Current wire sizing chart. I would think you would want a max 3% voltage drop and would assume in a front compartment, that the length would be 10-15' or less round trip. This chart calls for an upgrade from #6 to #4 copper wire. I've seen others that are more conservative.

Would operating the pump for 45 seconds to auto level and another 30 seconds to open slides cause a fire? I doubt the extra resistance for that short a time would be enough by itself to do so. But combine the undersized wire with other possible problems. If there's a mechanical bind, or a poor crimp, or a bad ground connection, the resistance could be much higher. How much? I have no idea. And of course, while unlikely, I suppose a switch could malfunction in such a way as to continuously apply power to the pump.

My point is that I think safety codes are created for more than single failure scenarios. As an unrelated example, if you have a bad ground connection to the power pedestal, everything in the coach will still work. But if the heating element in the water heater starts leaking current to ground, a very hazardous "hot skin" condition is created by the combination of failures.

Over a few years, some number of people have upgraded their breakers to 80 amp without upgrading the wiring. I haven't seen any problems reported yet. Does that make it ok? We each get to make our own judgments. My judgment is that if upgrading, I would upgrade the wires along with the breaker. But actually, I've replaced the 50 amp breaker once in 7 years with another 50, and I have a spare hanging next to it in case I need it again. I don't plan to upgrade mine.

 

[TheWolfes]

I just had to change out my breaker, followed the instructions in the user's guide.

Easy as could be...

Didn’t find the instructions. Where at in the users guide? Thanks

 

[Az_Ernie]

Didn’t find the instructions. Where at in the users guide? Thanks

Here's the link.