Analyzing 30 Amp Park Wiring Intermittent Problems

[wdk450]

To The Professional Electricians Out There:

I am staying at Thousand Trails Snowflower Resort, near Truckee on the crest of the Sierra Nevada mountains. The campground section I am in (Cliff) started having freaky problems with the 30 amp service (no 50 amp here). My Progressive EMS clicked off, and it was suddenly indicating Error 1 - Reversed Polarity. I went out to the pedestal plug with my digital meter, and read 120 volts to ground from the Hot outlet jack, AND 240 VOLTS FROM THE NEUTRAL OUTLET JACK TO GROUND. Then the conditions kept changing minute-by-minute from completely dead power, to the conditions I described, to normal power. These events were happening at ALL pedestals in the section. Finally, the park maintenance assistant guy who didn't know much about the electric system fooled around with the breaker panels and got the campground section working again. About an hour after he went home, my Progressive EMS tripped for about a minute indicating reversed polarity again, then reset itself.

Now that the electric problems have settled down, and I thought through the readings I saw, my conclusion is that Neutral should never have voltage on it, and if it does that is an indication of poor Neutral-Ground bonding. I think they have an intermittent bad connection on the feed transformer neutral-ground connection.

Any other opinions????

 

[danemayer]

Bill, I'm not an electrician, but I think for you to read 240 V from neutral to ground at the pedestal's receptacle (your rig unplugged), the 240 V must be coming from somewhere. In addition, I think since neutral and ground should be bonded at your pedestal or upstream, your reading indicates they're not bonded.

I wonder if someone in the park has a generator with a homebrew connection that's injecting power onto the neutral.

 

[wdk450]

Thanks, Dan. The power was good the rest of the night, but I think something is intrinsically wrong here. There is a transformer for this section, along with 2 distribution panels. I have always read that the neutral-ground bonding should only be at ONE point within a distribution (like at your service panel at home) and would not expect redundant neutral-ground bonds at the service pedestals.

The more experienced electrical maintenance guy will be in this morning.

I found a post about this on an electrician's website: http://ecmweb.com/forums/electrical-101/bonding-grounding/rv-park

 

[jmgratz]

Hey Bill. I hate to bash Thousand Trails but a number of Thousand Trails parks we have stayed in have had electrical problems. I think it stems from the fact they have used amateur electricians to do their electrical maintenance. IMHO With upgrades being done to a number of TT Preserves maybe it will get better. The bigger issue is when you tell the park about an issue they will mostly shrug it off.

 

[Gaffer]

There will always be a potential between neutral and ground. That is why there is only one place in an electrical service where the neutral and ground are connected (bonded) together. This connection is only allowed at the main service, never at a sub panel, RV pedestal etc.

 

[wdk450]

There will always be a potential between neutral and ground. That is why there is only one place in an electrical service where the neutral and ground are connected (bonded) together. This connection is only allowed at the main service, never at a sub panel, RV pedestal etc.

240 volts on neutral jack of a 110 vac circuit???

BTW, I went on a 1 hour exercise walk,came back and the power was fine, did computer work for about 10 minutes and the EMS shut everything down again; E1 = Reversed polarity, again. Running on computer and hotspot batteries at the moment.

 

[scottyb]

Sounds like the neutral is not bonded somewhere properly and someone is having an issue with a bad appliance or wiring. They call it "floating". I have read where service people have been electrocuted from the neutral because of this. It could even be a bad wire on the utilities side of the service. This one a few months ago at my property was between the transformer and meter pedestal, on PECU's underground. It drove me crazy trying to diagnose the problem, and caused me to replace a water booster pump 2 times. I was shocked that the utility used aluminum wiring on their underground utilities. It happens.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Bad grounds are the number one problem with electrical systems, fortunately you have an EMS. Go somewhere else.

 

[wdk450]

Bad grounds are the number one problem with electrical systems, fortunately you have an EMS. Go somewhere else.

Well, the momentary "glitches" are down to once or twice a day for just a few seconds. The Progressive HW50C EMS catches them, and prevents problems with my electrical stuff. The biggest annoyance is the 5 minutes it takes the Dish satellite receiver to come fully back on. I'm due out of here on Sunday, but have 2 other 3 week stays reserved later in the Summer. I may stay in another section, with its separate transformer and power feed.

 

[Gaffer]

There is likely an open neutral on the system. Doesn't need to be in your pedestal to effect you. Check out this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsSlQnGCvdg

240 volts on neutral jack of a 110 vac circuit???

BTW, I went on a 1 hour exercise walk,came back and the power was fine, did computer work for about 10 minutes and the EMS shut everything down again; E1 = Reversed polarity, again. Running on computer and hotspot batteries at the moment.

 

[rahewett]

WDK 450, I am a licensed electrican in North Carolina. From what I am hearing it sounds like the park needs to have the utility company check their equipment out along with the park having a quilified electrical contractor check their side. It truly sounds like a netural issue and I would not take a chance and stay there until it was repaired correctly. A bad neutral can cause havac with everthing in the electrical system.

 

[wdk450]

rahwett:
They were trying to get an electrician in yesterday, and by the way things SEEM better, they just might have. I have 2 more full days, and my Progressive EMS seems to be protecting me.

Sierra weather update: It got cold enough during the day today that I had to run the fireplace heater, then it rained hard. The TV news said that it SNOWED on Hwy 50 going to Lake Tahoe, and on the Hwy 120 entrance to Yosemite - On JULY 9th!!!

 

[iaflatlander]

Given the costs involved with the electronics in most rigs, you are a lot more patient than I would be. Even if I ended up in a Walmart parking lot, I would be gone.

 

[fredwrichardson]

To The Professional Electricians Out There:

I am staying at Thousand Trails Snowflower Resort, near Truckee on the crest of the Sierra Nevada mountains. The campground section I am in (Cliff) started having freaky problems with the 30 amp service (no 50 amp here). My Progressive EMS clicked off, and it was suddenly indicating Error 1 - Reversed Polarity. I went out to the pedestal plug with my digital meter, and read 120 volts to ground from the Hot outlet jack, AND 240 VOLTS FROM THE NEUTRAL OUTLET JACK TO GROUND. Then the conditions kept changing minute-by-minute from completely dead power, to the conditions I described, to normal power. These events were happening at ALL pedestals in the section. Finally, the park maintenance assistant guy who didn't know much about the electric system fooled around with the breaker panels and got the campground section working again. About an hour after he went home, my Progressive EMS tripped for about a minute indicating reversed polarity again, then reset itself.

Now that the electric problems have settled down, and I thought through the readings I saw, my conclusion is that Neutral should never have voltage on it, and if it does that is an indication of poor Neutral-Ground bonding. I think they have an intermittent bad connection on the feed transformer neutral-ground connection.

Any other opinions????

Thank God you have EMS and find another park or section till they fix their problem. I would assume that other RVers are having issues in your section and if they do not have EMS they could be causing damage to their RV appliances.

 

[wdk450]

The park electrical problems seem to have been fixed. I am pulling out tomorrow, anyways.

Thank God I paid the $400 and did the work to install the Progressive EMS in the Bighorn. That was a one time electrical insurance premium which has the side benefit of helping me manage loads as to not trip off the 30 amp service I find most places, with the remote readout inside the trailer.

 

[jmgratz]

Hey Bill, Thousand Trails will email you a survey for you to evaluate your stay. ELS Corporate sees this so be sure and mention all of the power issues you had while at the park, even if you talked to the manager about them. That is the only way ELS hears about park issues. Also the Progressive Industries system has contactors inside the box so if it has tripped alot the contactors can get weak. Keep that in mind too. When ours tripped alot we had to send in back in to be rebuilt.

 

[wdk450]

The transformer and distribution panels involved were not visible from my rig due to other rigs in between, but I was told the electrical utility, Pacific Gas and Electric, had a service truck out to the transformer, and thereafter the problems stopped. I left a 1 page note with TT maintenance before PG&E came out detailing the bad voltage measurements along with my diagnosis of bad neutral-ground bonding.

Many of the other campers had EMS systems, mostly the external ones. I didn't hear of any electrical damage to rigs or any shock incidents. Some people continued to run things normally when the neutral was 240 volts to ground, since there was still 120 volts from hot to neutral, although the polarity was reversed at that point.

The Progressive EMS proved its worth, and is just one of those expensive upgrades you should do (like Independent suspension, high-end tires, and a TPMS system) to a new trailer for your RVing peace of mind.

 

[JohnD]

Only once in the 20 years we've been RV'ing (was in to boating before that) have we had an issue with the power at a campground (and there was no power at the pedistal at that time) . . . and instead of plugging in to the standard 30-amp plug, we had to run an extension cord to the site next to us and plug in to the standard 20-amp plug after the park owner tried to fix the issue.

At the time that was no big deal as the trailer we had then (1978 Coachman Cadet 24 - miss it in many ways but wouldn't go back to it for nuth'in) didn't have AC, and the only electrical the trailer was capable of was for the electrical outlets inside of the trailer for the TV's, VCR's, razor and hair dryers (for my wife, of course) . . . the important stuff!

I don't have a surge protector for our new trailer, but I do plan to get one very soon!

I have an RV surge protector on my Christmas Wish list (was on my Birthday Wish list, but my birthday passed last week . . . and no surge protector)!

DOH!

 

[danemayer]

We had a power problem a few days ago. Power dropped inside the coach. I looked out the window and the light for the site was on. Went out and looked at the Progressive EMS. Low voltage error code on L1.

Power came back on for a few minutes and went out again. This time for about 2 hours. Problem affecting the whole area.

Electrical problems get caught by the EMS on a pretty frequent basis - at multiple locations. Most problems are not surges.

 

[TravelTiger]

The transformer and distribution panels involved were not visible from my rig due to other rigs in between, but I was told the electrical utility, Pacific Gas and Electric, had a service truck out to the transformer, and thereafter the problems stopped. I left a 1 page note with TT maintenance before PG&E came out detailing the bad voltage measurements along with my diagnosis of bad neutral-ground bonding.

Many of the other campers had EMS systems, mostly the external ones. I didn't hear of any electrical damage to rigs or any shock incidents. Some people continued to run things normally when the neutral was 240 volts to ground, since there was still 120 volts from hot to neutral, although the polarity was reversed at that point.

The Progressive EMS proved its worth, and is just one of those expensive upgrades you should do (like Independent suspension, high-end tires, and a TPMS system) to a new trailer for your RVing peace of mind.

We had a similar issue at a park one summer. EMS kept tripping in 102*+ heat, so I thought it was just all the ACs using too many Amps for the park system to handle. The problem was the EMS tripped and had to wait 2 minutes to come back, taxing our AC to keep the rig cool. Finally went to the office of the park... It was the first they had heard of it... and they ended up finding out there was a transformer issue down the road causing it... Got repaired by Electric Co within a few hours of that. Park was so grateful we let them know, they gave us a free night.


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