ATF: Cyclone - Brake Failure

[BarneyFife]

We've owned our 2011 370C for two months. It has been a fantastic addition to the family. But we're having a problem that seems to have everyone stumped for now.

We've taken three trips with it so far. Each trip on average, 200 miles round-trip. The last two trips, I've noticed terrible braking performance from the Cyclone. Fortunately, we have a new F450 and that helps stop the camper tremendously but it isn't nearly as good as if we had functioning trailer brakes. To best explain the situation, I have my Ford brake controller set on 10 and the Cyclone brakes perform as if they were on 3.

I've had the truck checked at two different dealers and they say no problem there. To verify, I pulled the Cyclone down the driveway at about 15 mph and had my son pull out the break-away switch. The trailer brakes performed exactly the same way: very weak. I just picked it up from my dealer who thought they had them fixed. They thought maybe the springs and other mechanisms inside the drum were rusted since the Cyclone was brought down to NC during the snow season. It was wrapped up in salt and road grime when it arrived here. They cleaned up everything and lubed them so there was free movement when the brakes were actuated. They also said three of the wheels were grossly overpacked with grease. So much so, grease had gotten on the pads and drums. Anyway, it is not repaired. The brakes were no better when I went to pick it up. We have trips scheduled the next four out of five weekends so the dealer knew I had to pick it up regardless of whether it was repaired.

While at the dealer, we even hooked it up to one of their trucks and it did the exact same thing.

I'm supposed to call them tomorrow to tell them how it did on the way home tonight. I believe they plan to call Heartland for help here. But of course, I'm too anxious. Obviously, we'll leave extra stopping distance for this weekend but I still would love to know what could be the problem.

Thanks for any help.

 

[cookie]

I don't know if I can help, but in reading your post as to what was done by the dealer, there was no mention of a brake adjustment. Has anyone adjusted the brakes?
Also if the grease got on the shoes it doesn't necessarily mean that the wheels were over packed. What it really means is that the seals failed for one reason or another. Were those seals replaced?
I recently pulled my drums off and found two sets of shoes full of grease. I know that no grease was ever pumped in because when everything was apart I pumped my red grease in the Easy Lube and the only thing that came out the other end was my red grease. Just failed seals.
One more thing, do you "warm up the brakes" when you leave on a trip. Doing this really does help.
Please come back and let us know when you finally get your brakes working and what the fix was.

Peace
Dave

 

[u243412]

I'll chime in. We have a 2012 Cyclone 3010.
I find the brakes to be very weak as well. I can't "lock up" the trailer brakes using the P3 e-brake controller lever. The trailer merely slows down. I've never put grease into the brakes as mentioned above and we only have (guessing) 2000kms on our trailer. (excluding the miles from delivery from Michigan)
Called my friend who bought the same trailer from same dealership. He said he could lock up his trailer brakes (using his stock GMC brake controller lever)
I haven't "adjusted" the brakes - but I do assume that they should be good from the factory.
I called a RV dealership on our way down to Flathead lake in Montana - they suggested that it sounded like my brakes were normal - that they shouldn't be able to lock up on that 3010 as they are very heavy units. (13085lbs loaded as per the CAT scale)
I wonder if the brakes on our trailer are also "weak" - or that they need adjusting. Looking forward to other opinions.

 

[BarneyFife]

I don't think I can ever settle for the idea that these units can't lock up because they're too heavy. As a matter of fact, its down right dangerous in some situations. Had a hispanic family "panic" two weeks ago when an ambulance came by. I had the 450s brake pedal to the floor but the Cyclone just kept pushing us forward. Fortunately, the ambulance passed before I reached their van and we did the old swerve around.

I'll keep everyone informed when all is said and done.

 

[hoefler]

Two things; If the shoes and drums were full of grease, the shoes should be replaced. You can not clean them enough to get the grease out that has soaked into the braking material. Also, trailer brakes, like automobile brakes, do require a break in period with several adjustments along the way. But on autos, they self adjust and you never know it. Depending on your driving and the route you take, it may take a couple 1,000 miles. With the miles you have driven, I would have adjusted the brakes 3 times already. When the brakes are new, the shoes do not mate to the drums exactly. As they wear, they will conform to the drums, which translate to more braking surface and better brakes. The magnet is another thing that requires a wear in to have more contact area for better braking. And it is true, on heavy rigs, you may never get wheel lock up on dry pavemant. Adjust the brakes every 200-300 miles when they are new. You will know when the break in period is done, you can tell when you adjust them, you won't be able to turn the adjusting wheel as much to get the wheel to lock up. Then you can go every 3,000-5,000 miles depending on your driving, route, and terrain.

 

[Vtxkid]

We have a 2011 Cyclone 3010 and I have noticed that it will not lock up the brakes even when I have the stock GM controller lever set at "10". It does seem to take care of its own load but again will not lock up. I to contributed it to the weight of the trailer its self. I will be going into the hubs myself here in the next few weeks.

 

[u243412]

Good discussion.
I think I'll go get my unit out of storage next week and look at adjusting that Star (torx?) nut to adjust the brakes a bit.
Guess I'll be googling adjusting Cyclone brakes...

 

[BarneyFife]

I'll adjust my last post statement. I said I can't accept the brakes not locking up. OK, maybe I'm going too far. But as I stated in my original post, the brakes perform like the controller's on three. That's totally unacceptable. If I had very hard braking while set at 10, I could live with that. I don't need extreme braking; just adequate braking. That ain't happenin' at this time.

We love the Cyclone and look forward to many years of enjoyment. But my previous two travel trailers had great brakes and they cost less combined than what our Cyclone cost alone. Go figure.

On a brand new unit, one can expect some glitches. But when nobody seems totally sure what to do, that makes you frustrated real quick.

 

[wdk450]

Well, it's kind of sad that you have to spend a lot of money to fix things that should have been right from the factory, but if this is a safety issue and you don't feel good about it, you may have to spend the big bucks to upgrade to disk brakes.

 

[rebootsemi]

We've owned our 2011 370C for two months. It has been a fantastic addition to the family. But we're having a problem that seems to have everyone stumped for now.

We've taken three trips with it so far. Each trip on average, 200 miles round-trip. The last two trips, I've noticed terrible braking performance from the Cyclone. Fortunately, we have a new F450 and that helps stop the camper tremendously but it isn't nearly as good as if we had functioning trailer brakes. To best explain the situation, I have my Ford brake controller set on 10 and the Cyclone brakes perform as if they were on 3.

I've had the truck checked at two different dealers and they say no problem there. To verify, I pulled the Cyclone down the driveway at about 15 mph and had my son pull out the break-away switch. The trailer brakes performed exactly the same way: very weak. I just picked it up from my dealer who thought they had them fixed. They thought maybe the springs and other mechanisms inside the drum were rusted since the Cyclone was brought down to NC during the snow season. It was wrapped up in salt and road grime when it arrived here. They cleaned up everything and lubed them so there was free movement when the brakes were actuated. They also said three of the wheels were grossly overpacked with grease. So much so, grease had gotten on the pads and drums. Anyway, it is not repaired. The brakes were no better when I went to pick it up. We have trips scheduled the next four out of five weekends so the dealer knew I had to pick it up regardless of whether it was repaired.

While at the dealer, we even hooked it up to one of their trucks and it did the exact same thing.

I'm supposed to call them tomorrow to tell them how it did on the way home tonight. I believe they plan to call Heartland for help here. But of course, I'm too anxious. Obviously, we'll leave extra stopping distance for this weekend but I still would love to know what could be the problem.

Thanks for any help.

First mistake you bought a trailer that was transported during the snow, salt season. You state that the dealer cleaned up the pads (shoes) and drums, mistake #2 replace all of them, once they (Shoes) are greased you can not clean them, you clean out the drums with brake cleaner but you have to do a really good job, new wheel seals.

With the new brakes on and adjusted up take it out on the road and at about 40 mph manually apply the trailer brakes a few times to burnish in the shoes (pg 16) on our trailer I had to even stop and adjust them again.

Read attached:

 

[BarneyFife]

Well. For now the Cyclone goes back to the dealer next Tuesday. Looks like they're replacing pretty much everything.

By the way. Looking at the past several threads from people, is there any real reason this is called "Ask The Factory"?

 

[u243412]

I'm so dumb.

I brought the trailer outta storage and checked it out. Pulled those 2 little plastic tabs so I could get into the back side of the drum. I didn't find any star wheel. So I look at the front side of the tire - and there a label that says these are Dexter no adjust axles. The must be self adjusting.

That said - I did notice that I could lock up the brakes when I brought the trailer home - no water or toys in the garage. Maybe the brakes are working properly. I still might pop one or two off to see what they look like inside.

 

[BarneyFife]

We're scheduled to get ours back Thursday. I'll post the outcome.

 

[BarneyFife]

I just realized I never posted with the results of our latest dealer trip. In a nutshell, it was a total waste of time and $100 of fuel.

The dealer replaced most everything including the backing plates. They now perform exactly the same. I don't care what anyone says about the weight of these units, this is a very dangerous situation. If there are multiple units like mine with the same braking weakness, its a scary thought. Fortunately, we have an extremely sturdy tow vehicle to help bring it to a stop.

In November, the 370C is going back to the dealership again for a third visit. Its my theory that the wiring is going to be the culprit. I called Heartland and all they wanted to do was give me the phone number to Lippert. It was definitely a case of "how quick can we get this guy off the phone and talk with somebody else." The guys at Lippert had no idea but they also wondered about the wiring. I just wonder if there's adequate amperage for three axles.

Anyway, we'll continue to give a humongous stopping distance until November. Just seems the more money we spend on a camper, the more problems we have. I expected far better from a toy hauler with an $82,000 MSRP.

 

[TedS]

In another thread about brakes, a poster upsized the trailer wire feeding the brake system and did improve braking effort.

I too hate to hear 'That's just the way it is.' when it comes to braking capacity. There is a reason that brakes used to be called 'binders', they could bind up the wheels. The brake controller adjustment should be adjustable down from lock up, not up to barely adequate.

 

[flameon]

It seems like the braking system problems have been a major cause for concern "but only by the people it effects" & not the HL brand or suppliers. With being in the Commercial Transport Industry for over 30yrs, if I had a unit, either the Tractor or Trailers with this problem, the unit would be "Condemned" by government inspection & regulations and taken "Out Of Service" till the problems were remedied, and then reinspected to make sure it all checks out for safety. Maybe the 6 month/yearly inspections should include RV'S in the higher weights so the owners would have a more proof that the problem really does exist.
We have contemplated getting rid of the Dodge and buying an FL60 Freigthliner as our tow vehicle as having just replaced the brakes all around including the trailer (tri-axle), with everything set up, we still cannot stop this trailer in a safe & timely manner that is be expected in the Commercial Industry.

 

[BarneyFife]

Two excellent posts.

I spoke with a local heavy truck/trailer repair business near the house. They had a good idea but I'm not fooling with anything for fear of warranty denials. They said if its an amperage issue, I could cut one of the wires leading to one particular axle. If the remaining brakes perform better, that points to an amperage problem.

By the way. Some have said these units are too heavy for the brakes to lock up. Mine won't even lock up in the gravel lot at the dealership while empty. That right there tells me these are highly inadequate brakes.

 

[rick_debbie_gallant]

I may have overlooked it, but does anyone know the size of wire that is being used for the braking system?

 

[TeJay]

As with most service issues one can never assume that the tech is doing the job correctly. It's to bad that one can't trust them but that's just the way it is. One comment made was that someone assumed that Heartland adjusted them correctly from the factory. Read this forum and you will find out that is not always the case. If the brakes have to be adjusted: turn the star wheel until the wheel locks up when turned by hand, then back it off until it just rubs intermittently or just slightly. That assures that the shoe is at least close to the rotating drum so they won't have far to go when they are applied. Then when the electric brake mechanism actuates the brakes they can put sufficient pressure to stop the trailer. Also if a drum has been soaked with grease you may still have a grease problem. Cast iron is porous and therefore the grease can be absorbed into the drum and not have the proper coefficient of friction when the shoes rub against the drum. Remember stopping happens because the energy of motion is turned into heat energy. I 've done hundreds of brake jobs and never ever did one without machining the drums, even brand new drums. Bottom line is: 1. New shoes of the best quality you can get. 2. Machine the drums. 3. Perform correct brake shoe adjustment. 4. Properly break in (burnish) the shoes. That's been mentioned. Proper burnishing is 30-40 moderate stops from 40 MPH down to around 20 with about 1 minute of cool down between stops. No panic stops on purpose. That will glaze the shoes and render them useless. 5. Properly check the magnetic brakes for proper application. That's also been mentioned.
6. Also properly handpack and adjust the wheel bearings. I only use synthetic grease. I want the best $$$ can buy when it comes to safety.

TeJay

 

[wdk450]

I may have overlooked it, but does anyone know the size of wire that is being used for the braking system?

Rick:
I don't know what is being used, but here is what Lippert specs: 14 guage. See page 10 of this generic manual on their trailer chassis from their website:
http://www.lci1.com/images/Flyers/Owners_Manuals/Axles/om-trailer-axle-web.pdf