Bighorn vs Montana - first impressions and question

[dieseldoug]

Hi everyone,

Long time reader here and Heartland watcher, new prospective first time buyer.

Today, DW and I looked at a few Bighorns and a Montana. I was expecting precisely the opposite of what I observed. Perhaps you good folks can give me some additional perspective. We really liked the 3010 floor plan BTW... An re with a dissappearing TV that preserves the rear window, with a large shower and King bed in a 35' trailer under 12,000 lbs dry

Then we walked into a Montana and noticed that the woodwork was more solid, the cabinetry was not as flimsy, the door to the bedroom was fully framed, the interior height was about 2" taller, and the salesman said Montanas were made with carbon fiber rafters which seems like a good idea. Their front door hinge system looked more robust as well, and the trailer came with a mor ride suspension and auto leveling system for an overall lower price .

These are attractive items to me. Yet, I was expecting BH to win in the fit, finish and function contest for the price difference. The bedroom door was especially disappointing to dw, from a noise and privacy perspective... She did not like being able to wave at folks on the other side of the closed door... Something Montana solved with a frame across the ceiling. Is there an interior BH option that addresses this? Any other pointers to help me look deeper?

 

[EPaulikonis]

Something to consider on the door issue. One of the reasons it's open on top is to allow air movement. One of the biggest issues you'll contend with is condensation build up in the trailer, especially if you're full time. You'd be surprised how much moisture two people can generate inside a closed space. The gap is the door helps create a larger space to help deal with the moisture.

As for the brand, we also checked out the Montana when we were searching for a full-time rig. One thing that immediately made me shy away from Keystone was the company would not cover warranty if you lived full time in the rig. Really winced when the salesman recommended I just lie when bringing it in for service since the company wouldn't know anyway. If I have to lie about the situation to get them to stand behind the warranty, I'm guessing the company isn't worth my hard earned cash and business.

You can find negative posts on almost any company, but I did put stock into knowing that HL owners were visible at every show we viewed one of their coaches. They also talked up the HOC and how HL customer service would be there to support the product. My decision to buy a Landmark is a result of the confidence I had that HL would work with me when things went wrong, and as every trailer owner knows, things will go wrong regardless of what brand you purchase.

Regardless, good luck on you decision and purchase. Hopeful you and DW will find the right rig to make your travels enjoyable. See you 'round the campfire!

 

[Garypowell]

We have 2013 3010 and love the floor plan and the fit and finish. I am in sales and use the unit when we go out to see customers. And I tell my customers if you find something that you like better (than what I am selling) and is an equivalent product please buy it....we will still be friends!

i don't know of any generic problems with Montanas...probably good people build it just like HL. It seems to me people who custom order units seem to be the most unhappy. But you have the opportunity to compare two real units side by side and pick the better one.

About the the hole over the door I have always thought of that as an airway that helped the A/C system work better. If that turned out to be the only objection to the 3010 you can probably buy a piece of wood from heartland and fill it in. But if you are looking for absolute privacy you might consider a cabin in Montana. These rigs are better than tents but the walls are very thin.

Bottom line is make that plus and minus list and buy the one that wins and then work through the problems that unit will have.....just like marriages.....all rigs have problems....you just have to get married first before you find out!

 

[GOTTOYS]

The warranty coverage for full time use is a non issue for me. How would they know if you use it full time? Nobody will ask anyway. It's a one year warranty either way..no big deal. I would really question the use of carbon fiber rafters, doubt that's correct. Seems like a pretty expensive solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The Heartland roof and framing system is as good as any. How many people if any, are going to be sitting in a position to see you behind the bedroom door? Not a concern for me and with the thin walls the amount of noise won't be any different. I like the ability to circulate the air. Which Mor Ryde suspension do they use? Unless it's they independent system it's no different quality wise than the Dexter equalizers Heartland uses. Sounds like a lot of salesmanship.The biggest difference is Heartland factory support and service. Keystone the builder of Montana, is not even in the same league when it comes to that. Look on any of the Keystone forums and read the complaints about service. I recently ordered some parts directly from Heartland and received them in 4 days. I don't think you can even purchase parts directly from Keystone...I know what i would buy...Don

 

[MTPockets]

It's a bit more difficult to distinguish differences between Montanna's price levels. Heartland has those too, but are specific in name; such as Big Horn, Landmark, Prowler, Sundance, Greystone, etc. Montanna are all Montanna's, with various trim packages and construction levels.

 

[Bob&Patty]

With a HL unit you don't have to take it to your selling dealer to have repairs done. You simply call HL service and they will find a dealer or an independent RV repair shop you can take it to. If you have a simple repair that needs a new part. Call HL service, have your VIN# handy and they will ship you the part at no cost. You can do the repair without having to take your coach anywhere and use fuel and having the coach sit for months to be repaired. We have had our BH going on 8 years now and HL has stepped up and repaired thing that were waaaaay out of warranty. I bet that Keystone won't do that.

 

[JohnDar]

They're all pretty on the outside, but the real story is inside the cabinetry and behind the basement walls. Heartland isn't perfect, but it's still built better (IMO), than many other brands.

 

[tracks]

In 2012 we purchased the a 2013 Heartland Bighorn and we've got no regrets when you make your decision I hope you can say the same.

 

[dieseldoug]

Thank-you all for the informative comments. see-- first time rv'er I didn't think of things like air circulation! thats a good call. As for the Keystone pricing and all of that, yes frankly that was one of the things that drove me to BH, which is why one doesn't want to take the salesman's word for it. We visited a pretty high volume camping world dealer, and I can imagine going through a lengthy PDI with them pressuring me to complete it -- I just worry about that as I mentioned in a separate post.

With a HL unit you don't have to take it to your selling dealer to have repairs done. You simply call HL service and they will find a dealer or an independent RV repair shop you can take it to. If you have a simple repair that needs a new part. Call HL service, have your VIN# handy and they will ship you the part at no cost. You can do the repair without having to take your coach anywhere and use fuel and having the coach sit for months to be repaired. We have had our BH going on 8 years now and HL has stepped up and repaired thing that were waaaaay out of warranty. I bet that Keystone won't do that.

yea this is very important, to be sure and one of the reasons that bumped me back to BH. I can't stand the thought of investing $60K+ and then being tied to a dealer for repairs. the independent repair shop approach is fantastic, and makes a lot of sense.

 

[dieseldoug]

The warranty coverage for full time use is a non issue for me. How would they know if you use it full time? Nobody will ask anyway. It's a one year warranty either way..no big deal. I would really question the use of carbon fiber rafters, doubt that's correct. Seems like a pretty expensive solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The Heartland roof and framing system is as good as any. How many people if any, are going to be sitting in a position to see you behind the bedroom door? Not a concern for me and with the thin walls the amount of noise won't be any different. I like the ability to circulate the air. Which Mor Ryde suspension do they use? Unless it's they independent system it's no different quality wise than the Dexter equalizers Heartland uses. Sounds like a lot of salesmanship.The biggest difference is Heartland factory support and service. Keystone the builder of Montana, is not even in the same league when it comes to that. Look on any of the Keystone forums and read the complaints about service. I recently ordered some parts directly from Heartland and received them in 4 days. I don't think you can even purchase parts directly from Keystone...I know what i would buy...Don

I did start to get nervous when the sales dude said he had 17 years experience lol this is real good advice. yes there is even a facebook page devoted to keystone issues! I acknowledge there will be brand loyalty, and there will be successful Montana experiences as well. But yes you are right I see the issues and resolutions here and the factory participation -- its quite impressive.


yes I want to be sensitive to straw man arguments as well, so if there are no condensation issues with the Heartland truss system then yes I see your point -- why would they do that? I'm not even sure that it is true, to be honest, and I do agree one has to ask "what problem are they trying to solve?" maybe its just a spec'smanship game or maybe they are improving a manufacturing process issue I don't know. Their ceilings do have a concave radius to them (higher in the center) -- perhaps that is how they achieve it.

And thanks for the pointers that not all Mor Ryde suspensions are created equal. The salesman did start out by saying "its more towable" and it took several iterations for him to tell me what that meant in terms of construction/build. And your suggestion that it is no different than standard dexter equalizers does make sense -- he said it would be very expensive to add an independent system.

hurray for the forum thanks everyone again for all the thoughtful calibrations. I still like the 3010. for some reason what I like about it most is that the TV is not always front and center, you have three adjacent windows and there is no couch facing away from the window. its one of the most livable smaller floorplans Ive seen.

I do have one question about the dining table. As others in the BH community section have noted, the dinette is very small -- understandable for this length of trailer of course. is there a table that expands to accommodate 4 chairs similar to the BC 3070? FYI, DW doesn't like the BC bathroom sink lol.

 

[Bob&Patty]

Don't buy one off the lot, Order it and get DW the sink she want's. The table and chair thing is a personal choice. The tables can be unscrewed from the floor and moved. You can get 2 extra chairs that fold up. The tables do have built in extensions, well they used to. Before you buy, download the BH MSRP from the forum. Add up all the options you want. Them get the total for base sticker plus options. Then subtract 25 to 30% off that $$$$ figure and THEN go make your deal. You don't have to buy local to get the best deal. Price a few other dealer on the net.

 

[Wmnmy]

Thats what we did we looked at the Montana also but the Bighorn was the only way to go we got it from CW in New Mexico brought up to Las Vegas no problems so far Get what you want at the Price you want and you will be happy...

 

[GOTTOYS]

One of the things you can do with a Heartland product is make some changes when you order it. Don't like the Big Country bathroom sink? Order a standard vanity like the Big Horn has. They are somewhat flexible within reason to what you want changed. Give the factory a call and ask to talk to the Brand Manager for whatever products you are interested in and discuss any possible changes....Yes, you can do that. Try doing the same thing with another make and see how far you get....Don

 

[dieseldoug]

Nice. Thanks again for the insights. Looks like it's an easy option to put a std sink in the bc instead of the bowl. I've studied the msrp and special builds documents - - very helpful indeed. Good suggestion to ask the factory how to make the bh dinette similar to the bc 4 chair dinette. And yes I'm sure Keystone would look at me funny if I asked a similar question!

 

[osims]

The Bighorn table does have a built-in leaf that expands and two folding chairs come under the bed

 

[dieseldoug]

Thanks osisms! the local dealer did not demonstrate that. Now, the BC appears to have a real free standing dinette with four chairs (they look small and very close together), which his very different from the BH. wondering if the BH approach might actually be better -- with the 2 folding chairs I mean. Someone else on this board (sorry I can't find the post right now) mentioned that in his opinion the folding chairs usually stay home -- but the concept seems quite practical.

 

[sengli]

Only a few years ago my wife and I decided to get into Rving. We spent a solid year looking at several different brands. My first impression was that the the montana's were pretty but the parts used to build it looked cheap. They used china made converters, rather than one's made in the US. And the heartlands were made with better "stuff". Therefor the bang for the buck was better. Seriously we looked at some of the premium keystone products that had plastic shower stalls at the $60K plus price point, really?

 

[alwayslooking]

We have a 2016 Bighorn 3010 on order. So, we've not experienced owning a Bighorn, but we have recently gone through an evaluation and buying process. We looked at numerous high profile 5th wheels including Keystone Alpine and Montana products. We made our selection based on build quality and size. Our first RV was a used 1988 Avion, and we've owned a couple of 5th wheels since we got rid of the Avion (a really good trailer).

From this standpoint, I would offer the following:

- First and foremost, don't trust anything a salesman tells you unless you can verify it. Most RV salesman are stupid and lazy at best and liars at worse. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between. For example, as previously pointed out, Montana RV's don't use carbon fiber for roof trusses. Not only is carbon fiber prohibitably expensive, it would probably not work well in a truss application. Do your own research.

- Montana has a loyal owner group. We've not met a Montana owner who was not proud of their unit. So, I don't believe you'll go wrong with a Montana or a Keystone product. That said both Keystone and Heartland have recently been acquired by Thor Industries. In the past Thor did not have the best reputation, but they have several high end lines, all acquired through acquisition I believe, that appear to holding up fairly well. The best example would be Airstream. Time will tell if Thor will continue to support these products.

- We wanted something with an actual length including front cap overhang of less than 36'. The Bighorn 3010 was the best floor plan for us that fit this size
criteria. Montana's closest size competitor is the 3100 model and is about 6" longer. Alpine has a unit that is about 6" shorter than the Bighorn 3010. Advice:
pick the floor plan that best fits your needs. Be sure to consider not only the layout but the number and depth of drawers and closets. Storage is in our opinion particularly important in the kitchen living area.

- The Montana will require a "Legacy" option for it to be equivalent to the Bighorn. The Legacy option adds a fiberglass end cap, upgraded suspension and,
most importantly, a "quiet cool A/C". However, I'm not sure that the Montana A/C quiet system extends to the bedroom like the Bighorn "Whisper Air" system. If you are concerned with noise in the bedroom, you'll find that the Bedroom A/C cycling on and off while you're try to sleep annoying. The Bighorn Whisper Air system removes the direct A/C return to a duct which greatly improves the noise level in the coach.

- The Bighorn 3010 will dry weigh at 12000 lbs or slightly more. Be sure however to pay attention to pin weight. Some of the 4 wheel drive 250's/2500's have payloads as low as 2500 lbs. Adding bags to these trucks will level the bed but will not increase payload because the limiting factor is the size of the
drive train and differential, not springs.

- We found the interiors on these units to be similar. All use solid hardwoods in the same places but with different species and finishes. We did not like the fact that the Montana bath door hits the window treatment across from it. Insulation values were also similar, though I don't Montana offers something equivalent
to Bighorn's Yeti option.

- If you can find a dealer who carries both makes where you can look at them side by side it would certainly help. You can call me at 830-990-1150, and I'll give you some dealers I found that do carry models that you might want to talk to by phone.