Electric/Hydraulic Disc Brake System failure

[porthole]

As a former ASE certified tech (me) I would offer the following tidbits.

There are 5 basic types of brake fluid; 2, 3, 4, 5 & 5.1
3 are most common in the passenger automotive world; 3, 4 & 5
2 are the the types 99% of us will encounter; 3 & 4

3 & 4 are glycol based and can absorb moisture
5 is a silicone based product

3 & 4 are semi compatible, but 5 is not compatible with anything but 5.

In a pinch 3 & 4 can be substituted for each other.

Buy the fluid in the container size you anticipate using.
Once opened you should plan on using it.
Because it absorbs moisture, once the container is open it starts to degrade. You would be better off bleeding a cylinder a couple of extra times and using the fluid then to save a 1/4 bottle for future use.

If you want to keep spare fluid, keep a sealed bottle. When first opening a new bottle of fluid if you notice, the foil seal is more then just foil, and it seals real good.

If performing a repair such as what Jim had, you should first see what the manufacturer recommends and use that.

If 3 or 4 is acceptable my choice would be 4 as it has a higher boiling point, which could be beneficial in trailer brakes.

In Jim's case, if it was my repair, I would have replaced all the brake fluid and bled all the brakes.
If he was my customer at one of my former dealerships, he would not have had a choice if we were to repair the brake system.

Very few people do it, but in regular braking systems it is recommended that the fluid be changed at a regular interval.

In my own vehicles I would not change the brake fluid as a preventive maintenance, but I seldom keep them long enough to have that as a concern (see disclaimer below).

If your brake fluid changes color from what is typically a clear fluid with an amber tint, it needs to be flushed.

I would remove the wheels for access as opposed to going through one of the slots. This also eliminate getting any brake fluid on any painted or "finished" surfaces.

A clear piece of tubing at least long to drop into a bottle keeps the mess down to a minimum.

Be careful with bleeder screws, they are hollow and easy to break off if you manhandle them too much.
If the bleeder screw does not loosen easily - stop - get some rust penetrant and give it a soaking and allow it to work.
I can just about guarantee a rusted in place screw will add vocabulary to your work.

The tubing long enough in the bottle to see any bubbles of air that remain is helpful

I use a vacuum bleeder on my motorcycle, but with our electric over hydraulic disc brakes, we have a built in pump.
Jumping the 7 way as jim did works fine, and is how MOR/ryde has done mine.

I have done the same, but since I have 6 volt batteries, I tapped off one of the 6 volts to reduce the pump pressure.

My bleeder that I use for the motorcycle.
http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/one-person+brake+bleeder.do?sortby=ourPicks

Something I have not tried yet, but will be getting the next time I do the bike brakes or clutch.
http://www.speedbleeder.com/

Disclaimer, on my motorcycle, I do replace the brake and clutch fluid every 2 years as a PM.

 

[porthole]

Anyone had this problem with Mor/Ryde? I am heading there next month to have disk brakes installed. Those of you with disk brakes-how much better are they than self adjusting electric?

MOR/ryde installs hydraulic disc brake systems correctly.

And as Jon just posted, once you have them to quote an old commercial you'd "rather fight then switch".

Who remembers that line? Without google'ing.

 

[mobilcastle]

Dish brakes only

 

[jnbhobe]

You would love the IS, get them to give you a package deal.

 

[jbeletti]

Update on my brakes...

When I fixed the brakes on my front axle, I should have inspected the rear axle system. It let me down later. This week, Heartlander and neighbor Howard Burnette and I tackled the job.

We removed the brake lines for the rear axle and the line the connects the system from the front axle to the rear axle (it had a dent in it). Using bending tools borrowed from another neighbor, we bent two 20" sections that connect to the calipers.

A couple sections of straight brake line, a couple of unions, lots of stainless steel straps and we got the lines all replaced and fastened up nicely.

We improved my remote switching for activating the brake actuator and we used it to do a pressure/leak test. No leaks! Then we removed all 4 tires to access the bleeder screws at the top of each outside caliper. Starting at the furthest downline brake, we began bleeding the system. Wow - lots of air. After 2 brakes, we re-topped off the brake fluid reservoir, then again after the last 2 brakes. In total, we used a full 2 quarts of DOT3 fluid. The fluid that came out while bleeding was sort of nasty looking. I would not reuse it for sure.

We used stainless steel hose clamps to fasten the lines to the axle. We used 1" long sections of rubber hose, slit lengthwise to wrap around the lines under each clamp. The only part that was tricky and looks bad is where we fastened a T to the axle. I preferred to fasten the T to the axle than fasten the lines in and out of the T. So the hose clamp is used across the T at an angle. We used a flattened out section of rubber hose behind the T to protect it from rubbing on the axle.

Once complete, we went ahead and cut off the stainless steel tie-wraps I'd used in my front axle brake line repair and replaced them with stainless steel hose clamps.

We replaced the tires/wheels and retorqued the lug nuts to 140 ft lbs (17.5" aluminum wheels).

Rather the reupload all the pics, here's a link to a public gallery of them.

 

[cookie]

I like it.

Peace
Dave

 

[jbeletti]

I like it.

Thanks Dave. That black brake line bender is what we used on the 20" sections that connect to the calipers. We had three 90 degree and one 80 degree bends in each of those two sections. We test fitted each before we committed to them, making sure we had the best clearances possible around the spring pack etc. Once those pieces were fitted to the calipers and brought down to the axle, it was easy to measure between them to come up with what length line was needed across the axle. We used 51" and 8" sections plus two unions to go across the axle. It all worked out great.

Thank goodness for LevelUp. Lifting the coach as high as it could go, even my large frame could easily slide under the axles on a creeper

I'd purchased a nice torque wrench while on the road a couple trips ago. Yesterday, I bought a 7/8" 6-point deep well socket and 5" x 1/2" drive extension. Both are for use with an impact wrench (future tool). I already had a 1/2" drive breaker bar. Coupled all that together to make removing, reinstalling and torquing the lug nuts a breeze. I'll be carrying all of that with me going forward.

Dave - thanks for all the time you spent with me by phone before I repaired the front axle braking. It really gave me the confidence I needed to tackle it. And that experience really helped me with the rear axle. I did a MUCH better job on the rear axle than I did on the front It was so much nicer to work on a concrete floor, indoors on a creeper than it was on gravel, in the heat, getting eaten alive by mosquitoes in MN when I did the front axle

 

[porthole]

Jim, campground we are at precludes looking at pictures.
Nowhere in your write up did I see mention of rubber - flexible brake lines.


Do you have flex lines between the frame and axles?

 

[jbeletti]

Jim, campground we are at precludes looking at pictures.
Nowhere in your write up did I see mention of rubber - flexible brake lines.


Do you have flex lines between the frame and axles?

Hey Duane - sounds like the Internet we had at the NE Region rally

There's a flex line that come from the underbelly down to each axle. It was that way from HL. I left those. The flex line terminates into a T at each axle, near the DS wheels. From there, it's steel line to the caliper on the back of each brake.

It was the rear axle we reworked this weekend. We custom bent the lines to the calipers. Way better than the hand bends done at the factory.

 

[porthole]

Interesting brake line reduction technique

Has the plant changed the way the lines are run?

If the proper clamps can't be screwed directly to the axle, perhaps the lines should be secured to the frame and flex lines used on each end at the caliper.

 

[J.S.B.]

Is there a lag to the posts?

 

[J.S.B.]

I just explained where we are now with the brake problem but I guess it got swallowed up by the web monsters.

We are still trying to resolve the issue do to not replacing the E/H actuator after it ran dry of fluid.

 

[J.S.B.]

Re: Hydrolic Brake failure

Found the same thing when I removed the rear storage wall while searching for the source of a loud hum that ended up was coming from the power surge protector. Could see the ground even though it is suppose to have the Yeti Package. Will probably have to look into that when we get back home.

 

[J.S.B.]

Re: Hydrolic Brake failure

The line actually broke at the fitting. My guess is that the line was a tad short so someone gave it a tweak which gave it a little stress spot at the failure point. The axle and caliper move together so I can see where if everything is attached and mounted together properly there would/should be no issue. But seeing how I have always gone that extra two inches to double rig everything I could/would have approached it differently myself.

 

[J.S.B.]

Re: Hydrolic Brake failure

JSB,

Did the servicer bleed the brake system too? Were you there when they did it?

Reason I ask - I've had the same failure you had. I have 3 to 4 tie-wraps per axle, securing brake lines - but, on the end opposite of the T, the last tie-wrap was maybe 2 feet in from the hub. That length of unsecured line, I believe, allowed oscillation to occur in the line and that led to the failure of the line at the connector at the caliper. This is my theory anyway.

I replaced the line myself, with a few phone calls to Dave H (cookie) But I have yet to bleed air from the system. Turns out, the bleeder screw is near the top of the caliper on the "front" side! So I believe the wheels will need to come off to access the bleeder screws and get the job done.

With about $10 in parts (plus an existing 50 foot extension cord), I created a switch system that will allow me to activate the actuator from under the coach at the brakes in order to pressurize the system and bleed the air. I was at a campground in MN when I replaced the lines and was getting eaten alive my mosquitos after the biblical rains they've received.

My plan is to raise the whole coach using the 6-point LevelUp, remove the wheels and get it done. While the wheels are off, I may take then to town and have them balanced. Also a good time to inspect all my suspension components and torque all the bolts

So - I'm using the RV, making our way home (3-day trip), with brakes that are "delayed", but working.

Trust that I have given this feedback back to the plants so they are aware of what you and I both had happen. My coach was one of the first to have disc brakes and I'm hopeful that we have the processed more dialed in at this time.

Note too that I replaced the plastic tie-wraps with stainless steel ones. The 14" length ones from NAPA were the perfect length. I used about 5 on my axle where I made the repair. I will do the same on the other axle when I bleed the system.

Hello Jim. We met at the Tampa RV show last winter. I was the persistent fella that stopped by several times that thought the toilet room needed a vanity cabinet above the sink instead of a mirror.

Sorry to hear that you ran into the same brake line issue. I wouldn't doubt my unit came off right behind your since it was thrown together as a show display to showcase all the bells and whistles that were available.

Unfortunately my case has not ended up as simple as replace and bleed the line and all is good. After what I fear has been to many miles driven with an actuator that keeps or surges pressures to the brakes that it may be time for more work then the brake line. After stopping at a scenic overlook in Oregon as I stepped from the truck the stink of overheated brakes came right at us. Walked back to check the trailers wheels which were way to hot to touch and on the way heard a growling hum come from inside of the front storage area. Opened the front hatch and squeezed in touching the actuator which was humming even though the truck was off. Disconnected the trailer from the truck in case there might be a problem with the brake controller but that didn't shut down the actuator. I noticed a wire nut on the ground cable to the actuator and when I undid it the pump shut down. When I reconnected the wires the pump did not start up on it's own. After a few test stop and goes everything seemed to be working correctly. Tried to call but didn't have a signal and by the time we found a cell signal Heartland had gone home for the weekend. Drove slow trying to listen for any sounds but driving a diesel does present a bit of a problem with that. So whenever I came to a stop I would shut the truck down and listen. No noise so drove on. Just as we made it to our RV park that I noticed the noise again. Got out and the brakes where again very hot. Had to undo the wire to get it to stop with no sound when I reconnected so went to our site.

Still dealing with coming to a solution. Dexter agrees that the actuator has to be changed by Landmark since it was not a faulty actuator that caused the problem.

 

[Toy1Ton]

Re: Hydrolic Brake failure

should I not have my disc bracks installed my mor ride?

 

[jmgratz]

Re: Hydrolic Brake failure

should I not have my disc bracks installed my mor ride?

We have had Mor-Ryde install electric/hydraulic disc brakes on all three of our fifth wheels and would not be without them. Highly recommended

 

[Westwind]

Re: Hydrolic Brake failure

I watched my neighbor (Retired Diesel Bus Mechanic) install Disc Breaks (Titan Hydraulic Pump - Kodiak Disk Brakes)on his 2008 Sunnybrook Titan with Dexter axles. He iinstalled the Pump in his compartment and ran the metal tubing along the frame and used the supplied rubber hose from the fitting on the frame to each caliber on each wheel. Heartland could use his expertise after seeing what he did and the Heartland installations I definately wouldn't have them do the installation. That was not a job that I would show to anyone.

 

[Westwind]

Re: Hydrolic Brake failure

I printed out two pictures from JSB initial installation to show to my neighbor - his metal lines are attached to the trailor frame and flex lines to each axle, nothing is run on the axles which to me, what little I know makes alot of sense. I'm hoping that these installations were done at a Heartland sub-contractor and not at the factory because they need to change contractors and improve on the method of installation. I'm really not impressed just let down really.

 

[AAdams]

Re: Hydrolic Brake failure

There is a tutorial the HOC member/Moderator Cookie posted a while back on how to install disc brakes. He ran the lines down the frame then used flex lines. Very good looking install from what I saw in the video located here. The video also shows how to repack your bearings by hand. Very useful information in it.